Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo

[JBean]

Hi there jelly beanya. No worries about a bobcat. We are just too big to be prey for them, and one might attack in an effort to defend itself if it were totally backed into a corner.

Lion

HI Lion! Happy New Year. The bobcats have been known to be aggressive here for whatever reason, so I never say never. But as you can see, since I ride my bike back there, I am not overly worried.
The mountain lion that attacked the rider I posted about ealrier was an odd behavior as well. but nonethless it killed one and maimed her. So I do carry pepper spray. But I never ride back where Anne Hjelle was attacked anymore. I just can't do it.

 

[JBean]

Not to worry about bobcats, just their larger cousins. There have been a few coyote attacks around here. They have gotten too used to people and have lost their normal fear.

I never worry about the coyotes..unless there is more than one. My neighborhood is being overrun with deer!. It is so dry in the canyon behind my house, they have run out of food. So they are coming to the local gardens. But my point is the behavior is changing all around and so I expect to see more coyotes and bobcats in the hood.

 

[LionRun]

Shadows, we think alike when it comes to keeping facts in the facts category and theories in the theory category. This is not always easy to do. As always it is wonderful to post on the same thread as you, dear friend:blowkiss:.

I believe it is possible that one or more of the boys may have taunted Tatiana. "May have" means I only think it is possible, and I base this on what I heard, the "possible" evidence found so far, and that history tells us that once in a while people, especially young men or boys have been known to taunt animals.

It being reported on NG that the wall is a little over 12 feet high. This is consistent with the previous report of the wall being 12 1/2 feet high. We have heard reports that the wall is anywhere from between 12 1/2 to 20 feet. However, as time goes by, 12 1/2 feet is looking more and more like the accurate height. I also heard that the wall was just measured and shown to be 12 1/2 feet high (on another cable news station--can't recall the name--sorry).

Jack Hanna is on now talking about his ideas on what may have happened and tiger behavior.

I wonder what the two survivors are saying. their account may be helpful, although if they were taunting the tiger they may not want to admit it. Again, I am not saying that the young men did taunt the tiger--it is only possible.

Lion

 

[dark_shadows]

Shadows, we think alike when it comes to keeping facts in the facts category and theories in the theory category. This is not always easy to do. As always it is wonderful to post on the same thread as you, dear friend:blowkiss:.

I believe it is possible that one or more of the boys may have taunted Tatiana. "May have" means I only think it is possible, and I base this on what I heard, the "possible" evidence found so far, and that history tells us that once in a while people, especially young men or boys have been known to taunt animals.

It being reported on NG that the wall is a little over 12 feet high. This is consistent with the previous report of the wall being 12 1/2 feet high. We have heard reports that the wall is anywhere from between 12 1/2 to 20 feet. However, as time goes by, 12 1/2 feet is looking more and more like the accurate height. I also heard that the wall was just measured and shown to be 12 1/2 feet high (on another cable news station--can't recall the name--sorry).

Jack Hanna is on now talking about his ideas on what may have happened and tiger behavior.

I wonder what the two survivors are saying. their account may be helpful, although if they were taunting the tiger they may not want to admit it. Again, I am not saying that the young men did taunt the tiger--it is only possible.

Lion

My dear sweet LionRun,:blowkiss:
It is my pleasure to see you.
Thank-you very much for your post. You are right, if they were taunting, they will not admit it. Just a thought here, have the 2 retained lawyers?


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[Pharlap]

My dear sweet LionRun,:blowkiss:
It is my pleasure to see you.
Thank-you very much for your post. You are right, if they were taunting, they will not admit it. Just a thought here, have the 2 retained lawyers?


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

However it was other ppl that said they were taunting.
That's what I heard. So surely the police have the names and still talking to them.
Perhaps they saw more....
Only time will tell, till will have a the real facts.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Yes, like a big concrete ditch. I've been trying to read up as much as I can on this since hearing so much about it on the news but I haven't heard or read if the tiger had ever gotten out of her area before?

Never.

 

[dark_shadows]

:chicken:

However it were other ppl that said they were taunting.
That's what I heard. So surely the police have the names and still talking to them.
Perhaps they saw more....
Only time will tell, till will have a the real facts.

My dearest Pharlap,:blowkiss:
Well hello there Pharlap, I am pleased to see you.
You are right, time will tell on the facts. The police have one witness and Chief Heather Fong stated this on the news, “That’s the purpose of the investigation, to look at all statements that can be provided to us, and not to speculate,” she said.
“If they heard rumors, that doesn’t count. They have to have seen it,” she added, apparently referring to witness interviews.


Thanks for your post Pharlap.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[LionRun]

HI Lion! Happy New Year. The bobcats have been known to be aggressive here for whatever reason, so I never say never. But as you can see, since I ride my bike back there, I am not overly worried.
The mountain lion that attacked the rider I posted about ealrier was an odd behavior as well. but nonethless it killed one and maimed her. So I do carry pepper spray. But I never ride back where Anne Hjelle was attacked anymore. I just can't do it.

Happy New Year jelly, jelly beanya! Actually, some Mountain Lions consider us as prey. We have a Mountain Lion here in Central Texas that I saw once, two years ago. This was 3 days after my horse, Raven, was attacked by what I already believed had to have been a Mountain Lion. I was in a bit of denial at first. What? A Mountain Lion here? Noooo. But, there sure is or at least was one living in the area.

The bite wound spread was about 4 inches--too large to have been any dog. And, the telltale sign was that there were deep lacerations from my horse's shoulders, down his neck and about to his head. When I say lacerations I mean obvious deep claw wounds from an animal with a large paw and sharp, large claws. Raven now stays in the large yard where my many German Shepherd go out to play, and there have been no further incidences, thank goodness. My daughter and I get in and out of our vehicle in the same area where the dogs have access to, so it is pretty safe.

Lion

 

[LionRun]

My dear sweet LionRun,:blowkiss:
It is my pleasure to see you.
Thank-you very much for your post. You are right, if they were taunting, they will not admit it. Just a thought here, have the 2 retained lawyers?


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

It wouldn't surprise me if lawyers are hired in the very near future to represent the young men and the deceased young man's family. Until I know the facts, I don't even know what to think about that, yet.

Lion

 

[dark_shadows]

It wouldn't surprise me if lawyers are hired in the very near future to represent the young men and the deceased young man's family. Until I know the facts, I don't even know what to think about that, yet.

Lion

My dearest LionRun,:blowkiss:
The investigation is a criminal one, so with a witness stating that they were taunting, fact or not, I would think that the parents of the 2 retained lawyers. Or maybe they retained lawyers on their own.
Also, they must be thinking about a civil suit against the zoo for lack of saftey with dangerous animals. Especially since OSHA had stipulations with the zoo and the fact that Tatiana was already a known human attacker.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[LionRun]

My dearest LionRun,:blowkiss:
The investigation is a criminal one, so with a witness stating that they were taunting, fact or not, I would think that the parents of the 2 retained lawyers. Or maybe they retained lawyers on their own.
Also, they must be thinking about a civil suit against the zoo for lack of saftey with dangerous animals. Especially since OSHA had stipulations with the zoo and the fact that Tatiana was already a known human attacker.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

Good thinking, shadows.

Lion

 

[MeoW333]

Not to worry about bobcats, just their larger cousins. There have been a few coyote attacks around here. They have gotten too used to people and have lost their normal fear.

Wow, coyotes only used to attack when food was scarce and winter or their young threatened. Humans are encroaching on their territory..
If the moat/ditch was 15-20ft across (varying on different estimates) and a board was slid down at a diagonal, the tigress probably could have made the jump. The board, i doubt would have fit across the distance, yet diagonally if the tigress jumped down, then ran up the make shift "ramp"..?
People should have learned that there are consequences with cages large wild animals by now..

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"SAN FRANCISCO — The director of the San Francisco Zoo, where a Siberian tiger killed a teenager and mauled two men on Tuesday, said Thursday that the concrete wall surrounding the area where the animal had been held was 12 feet 5 inches tall, nearly 4 feet shorter than the recommended national standard."

And this:

"Contradicting local news reports, the police said Thursday that no shoes or blood were found inside the exhibit. But the police did find “a shoe print on the railing” around the den, Chief Fong said. Big cat experts have said Tatiana must have been taunted and provoked to attack."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/us/28tiger.html?ref=us

 

[dark_shadows]

Latest news on the security of the zoo.

Click here for link

Part of the article;
San Francisco Zoo officials said they plan to implement tougher safety measures that would prevent tigers from escaping and offer increased protections for visitors.
The move came as Mayor Gavin Newsom's administration called on zoo officials Wednesday to make immediate changes to ensure that the gruesome attack is not repeated.


Part of the current agreement specifies that the nonprofit is responsible for any loss of life or injury at the zoo, but Supervisor Gerardo Sandoval said the city could be forced to pay millions of dollars to the victims and their families as a result of lawsuits.

"Whether the attack was provoked or unprovoked, there is no excuse for an animal getting out of its enclosure, and the law is pretty clear that in this situation the city will be held responsible," said Sandoval, who also is a lawyer.
"Live animal attacks won't be tolerated in San Francisco, and the mayor expects immediate improvements in protocols and facilities so that tragedies such as this never happen again," Newsom's spokesman Nathan Ballard said. "It's simply unacceptable."


Respectfully,
dark_shadows

 

[LinasK]

By JORDAN ROBERTSON, Associated Press Writer Thu Dec 27, 6:44 PM ET


SAN FRANCISCO - The director of the zoo where a teenager was killed by an escaped tiger acknowledged Thursday that the wall around the animal's pen was just 12 1/2 feet high — well below the height recommended by the accrediting agency for the nation's zoos.
San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel A. Mollinedo also admitted that it is becoming increasingly clear the 300-pound Siberian tiger leaped or climbed out of its open-air enclosure, perhaps by grabbing onto a ledge.
"She had to have jumped," he said. "How she was able to jump that high is amazing to me." Mollinedo said investigators have ruled out the theory the tiger escaped through a door behind the exhibit.
According to the Association of Zoos & Aquariums, the walls around a tiger exhibit should be at least 16.4 feet high. But Mollinedo said the nearly 70-year-old wall was 12 feet, 5 inches, with what he described as a "moat" 33 feet across.
He said safety inspectors had examined the 1940 wall and never raised any red flags about its size.
"When the AZA came out and inspected our zoo three years ago, they never noted that as a deficiency," he said. said. "Obviously now that something's happened, we're going to be revisiting the actual height."
Mollinedo said the "moat" contained no water, and has never had any. He did not address whether that affected the tiger's ability to get out.
On Wednesday, the zoo director said that the wall was 18 feet high and the moat 20 feet wide. Based on those earlier, incorrect estimates, animal experts expressed disbelief that a tiger in captivity could have made such a spectacular leap.
<snip>
The San Francisco Chronicle, citing anonymous sources, reported Thursday that police are looking into the possibility that the victims had taunted the tiger and dangled a leg or other body part over the edge of the moat. The newspaper said police had found a shoe and blood inside the enclosure.
But at an afternoon news conference, Police Chief Heather Fong said police had no information that anyone had put a leg over the railing, and she said no shoe was found in the animal's enclosure. She did not address whether the victims had teased the tiger.
She said a shoeprint was found on the railing of the fence surrounding the enclosure, and police are checking it against the shoes of the three victims. more at link:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071227/ap_on_re_us/tiger_escapes

 

[LinasK]

The tiger jumping was my initial theory based on having been at this zoo. The wall isn't very high and there is no water in the moat. I was always uneasy in front of these exhibits. It's a very old zoo that is being re-furbished.
Now the truth about the actual height of the wall is coming out.
The city of San Francisco is criminally liable even if the guys taunted the tiger. I read this in an article somewhere.
I think the zoo director should be fired for not taking proper measures after last year's attack by this very same tiger on a trainer, and for lying about the height of the wall initially.

 

[LinasK]

Kevin Fagan, Cecilia M. Vega,Steve Rubenstein, Chronicle Staff Writers
Thursday, December 27, 2007
The moat wall protecting the public from the tigers at the San Francisco Zoo is only 12 1/2 feet high - 4 feet shorter than the accepted national standard for safety.
It's also 8 feet shorter than zoo officials first said it was. <snip>
In two days since a fatal tiger attack on Christmas Day, the zoo has given at least five different measurements for the tiger outdoor exhibit. The dimensions have been unclear in part because the zoo has remained closed since Tuesday, has denied the public and press access to its grounds and has forbidden employees from talking about the tragedy.
The zoo's changing story regarding the exhibit's dimensions is only one headache for investigators trying to piece together how a Siberian tiger got out of her outdoor setting, killed one San Jose teen and injured two of his friends.
The survivors haven't been forthcoming in interviews with police, according to sources close to the investigation. And the zoo doesn't have cameras that might have recorded the big cat's escape. Mollinedo has also vacillated on whether the tiger might have needed human help to jump out of the grotto.Police have not ruled out that the cat might have latched on to a dangling arm or leg to pull itself out. Sources said Tatiana's hind claws showed signs of wear and stress, possibly indicating she scaled the concrete wall.
After leaving her outdoor exhibit, the animal fatally mauled 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. and injured his friends, brothers Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, all of San Jose.
An American Zoological Association expert on tigers is expected to arrive at the zoo in coming days to help local officials better understand tiger behavior and determine whether it is physically possible for a 350-pound tiger to leap or climb a 12 1/2 -foot wall. A female Siberian can grow to more than 8 feet, from snout to tail, and would be even taller standing on its hind legs and reaching up.
<snip>
Authorities now believe that the tiger escaped the grotto and first attacked one of the brothers. The men yelled, Fong said, and the tiger released the man, then grabbed Sousa. At that time, she said, the brothers ran toward the cafe, where they had eaten earlier. She said the men ran in that direction because they believed there would be people in the area.
The tiger caught up to the men and attacked the second brother outside the cafe.
Zoo officials, who said they would reopen Friday, changed their mind and said the zoo will remain closed indefinitely. Mollinedo said it would not reopen until it was deemed safe. more at link:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/27/MNSKU5OFE.DTL

 

[LinasK]

Thursday, December 27, 2007 | 7:25 PM

By Tomas Roman
SAN FRANCISCO -- Even though Tatiana was born in captivity and never learned to hunt in the wild, no amount of training can suppress the basic animal instinct of a predator.

This is the first time anybody has heard of a tiger escaping on its own from a natural habitat environment at a zoo.
No other tiger has made such a long jump to freedom, which is why many experts are skeptical. But a local woman says she watched another tiger 'almost' clear that very same wall a few years ago. "It's frightening it doesn't seem real," said Marian Roth Cramer. Marian Roth Cramer is referring to her visit to the San Francisco Zoo December 31, 1996. She took her then 4 year old son Erik to the tigers in their enclosure.
"I was taking pictures and I saw the tiger leap over across his pen and cross the moat and climb up. I remember that very distinctly five or six feet away from my son, and then he slid down," said Roth Cramer.
The angle of the wall denied the tiger a good grip. When she screamed and backed away she encountered a zoo employee.
"I said o my god! Did you see that? Is he after my son or something to that effect? He said to me, he does that all the time he hates my guts. He's after me," said Roth Cramer.
Cramer says she wanted to relate that incident to the police and share her pictures. She called the SFPD but has yet to get a return call. more at link:http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=5858765

 

[LinasK]

I have also read that the guy who died was distracting the tiger from attacking his friend, the first victim. If true, he is a hero.

After I read the article in my post #182, I'm not sure I can say the same of his so-called "friends". They are being uncooperative with the police and have a history of belligerence. I think they were the ones who taunted the tiger, since it chose one of them to go after first, and continued to hunt them 300 feet away.
My husband's theory is that the cat jumped to the side wall and then walked on the wall to the sidewalk.

 

[Mygirlsadie]

I bet the parents of the boy killed by the tiger will sue now. I saw them talking on the news earlier and they didnt say it in so many words but you could tell.....