Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory #3

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  • #221
Neither Kavanagh nor anyone else knew the motive at that point in time. And even if thrill kill were a possibility his team was considering, it would have been highly irresponsible for him to speculate publicly. He also had a duty to the BOsma family.

It's interesting how you refer to a former OPP detective with decades of experience as someone on the west coast. It's yet another attempt to discredit anyone who makes DM look bad.

Is it? Or do some like to discredit just about any other opinion other than their own?

In court Crown can bring in experts from all over and those experts will be questioned about the relevance of that experience. Just recently I saw an 'expert' be made to look totally worthless in a case simply because he had no knowledge of the factual details of the case only what he had been told. We should be allowed to make the same critiques on here and not be verbally bludgeoned every time a suggestion is made that doesn't suit someone elses agenda. JMO
 
  • #222
The person quoted is an EXPERT in his field as a criminal profiler. This isn't just a police officer "source." I would trust this person's opinion over any else's on here JMO.
 
  • #223
The person quoted is an EXPERT in his field as a criminal profiler. This isn't just a police officer "source." I would trust this person's opinion over any else's on here JMO.

That's you. I have yet to see how he has identified DM's personality. It seems to me people are trying to make the man fit the profile without any sound correlations. MOO

I think a criminal profiler had said that Guy Paul Morin fitted a certain profile as well. So much for that.
 
  • #224
That's you. I have yet to see how he has identified DM's personality. It seems to me people are trying to make the man fit the profile without any sound correlations. MOO

I think a criminal profiler had said that Guy Paul Morin fitted a certain profile as well. So much for that.
<bbm>

Nope.

The Kaufman Commission indicated that the problem in the Morin case was not with the profile prepared by John Douglas .. it was due to LE providing Douglas with input when they already had a suspect in mind (a no-no wrt profiling) AND that investigators took it upon themselves to revamp certain aspects of the profile that was released to the public (those aspects changed to point toward their suspect, making their suspect fit the crime). They took portions of JD's profile that did fit Morin and disregarded other portions that would point away from Morin.

Can't find the original, but here's a version of the
Report of the Kaufman Commission on Proceedings Involving Guy Paul Morin:
The Honourable Fred Kaufman CM QC 31 March 1998

http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin30.asp

PS: Van Allen was analyzing the document, not doing a full profile on an unknown perp.
 
  • #225
Neither Kavanagh nor anyone else knew the motive at that point in time. And even if thrill kill were a possibility his team was considering, it would have been highly irresponsible for him to speculate publicly. He also had a duty to the BOsma family.

The nation's most reliable news source (ahem) stated as follows on May 16, 2013, citing that chatty unnamed "one police source" in a story quoted all over the place...

"TORONTO - Police are now considering a &#8220;thrill kill&#8221; as a possible motive for the mysterious slaying of Tim Bosma.&#8220;It is seriously being looked at,&#8221; said one police source. &#8220;There is a theory that it was about stealing a truck but also hurting somebody.&#8221;"

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16...ll-kill-source

Then, the very next day, the Toronto Star reported...

"But the lead investigator in the case denied that police were looking at the possibility the homicide may have been just for a thrill.
&#8220;I don&#8217;t know the motive for this,&#8221; Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh said Thursday.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t even know what thrill kill means. It&#8217;s not been discussed. Where it&#8217;s coming from, I don&#8217;t know.&#8221;"

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/20...urce_says.html
 
  • #226
  • #227
Neither Kavanagh nor anyone else knew the motive at that point in time. And even if thrill kill were a possibility his team was considering, it would have been highly irresponsible for him to speculate publicly. He also had a duty to the BOsma family.

It's interesting how you refer to a former OPP detective with decades of experience as someone on the west coast. It's yet another attempt to discredit anyone who makes DM look bad.


I'm of the belief that someone outside of the investigation should not be given the same credence as someone leading the investigation. That's my opinion, and I think that I am entitled to it.

Twisting my words to make it appear as if I am attacking or discrediting someone is deliberately obscuring my real meaning, unnecessarily. I can speak for myself, thank you.
 
  • #228
  • #229
The nation's most reliable news source (ahem) stated as follows on May 16, 2013, citing that chatty unnamed "one police source" in a story quoted all over the place...

"TORONTO - Police are now considering a “thrill kill” as a possible motive for the mysterious slaying of Tim Bosma.“It is seriously being looked at,” said one police source. “There is a theory that it was about stealing a truck but also hurting somebody.”"

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16...ll-kill-source

Then, the very next day, the Toronto Star reported...

"But the lead investigator in the case denied that police were looking at the possibility the homicide may have been just for a thrill.
“I don’t know the motive for this,” Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh said Thursday.

“I don’t even know what thrill kill means. It’s not been discussed. Where it’s coming from, I don’t know.”"

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/20...urce_says.html

BBM - That's my opinion also. It's states "also hurting somebody", but should have read "also murdering somebody". Nothing complicated in that logic. MOO.
 
  • #230
If a "thrill kill" is the only possible motive that could fit in some people's opinions, then I think that the jury may have a hard time convicting on that when the defence calls in expert witnesses who refute the notion that it exists, or when they call Matt Kavanaugh to the stand and he repeats that he doesn't even know what that means.

Is there no other possible motive?
<rsbm>

I don't think anyone here is saying it's the only possible motive ... we are just discussing/considering possibilities based on articles that appeared in MSM.

Other possible motives which have been discussed elsewhere in these threads ... material gain whether personal or as part of gang/general criminality, simply to cover up and eliminate a witness to a theft
 
  • #231
And yet one of those same reporters now claims that still no one has provided a concrete motive for the killing.

http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news...-with-Murder-in-the-First-Degree-2&p=11585551

Because "thrill kill" was an early consideration, not to say that it is or isn't the actual motive (which we the public, including reporters, won't know until trial if they've even been able to establish an actual motive). It's just not something LE comes out and advises the public prior to trial.
 
  • #232
If the direct evidence is strong enough (which I suspect it is based on direct indictment), the Crown may not even have to present motive to the jury. They can suggest it, but it's only important to establish motive when a case is largely circumstantial.
 
  • #233
WRT motive .. from an old precedent of Lewis v. The Queen:

http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2635/index.do

Held: The appeal should be dismissed.

Accepting the term "motive" in a criminal law sense as meaning "ulterior intention", it is possible, upon the authorities, to formulate the following propositions: (1) As evidence, motive is always relevant and hence evi*dence of motive is admissible. (2) Motive is no part of the crime and is legally irrelevant to criminal responsibility. It is not an essential element of the prosecution's case as a matter of law. (3) Proved absence of motive is always an important fact in favour of the accused and

[Page 822]

ordinarily worthy of note in a charge to the jury. (4) Conversely, proved presence of motive may be an impor*tant factual ingredient in the Crown's case, notably on the issues of identity and intention, when the evidence is purely circumstantial. (5) Motive is therefore always a question of fact and evidence and the necessity of referring to motive in the charge to the jury falls within the general duty of the trial judge "to not only outline the theories of the prosecution and defence but to give the jury matters of evidence essential in arriving at a just conclusion." (6) Each case will turn on its own unique set of circumstances. The issue of motive is always a matter of degree.

Applying the foregoing propositions to the present case, motive was not proven as part of the Crown's case, nor was absence of motive proven by the defence. There was, therefore, no clear obligation in law to charge on motive. Whether or not to charge became, therefore, a matter of judgment for the trial judge and his judgment should not be lightly reversed.

Every summing-up must be regarded in the light of the conduct of the trial and the questions which have been raised by the counsel for the prosecution and for the defence respectively: per Alverstone L.C.J. in R. v. Stoddart (1909), 2 Cr. App. R. 217 at p. 246. Counsel at trial did not ask the judge to instruct on motive, and the judge obviously felt that such instruction was not called for, in the light of the entire trial.

The necessity of charging a jury on motive may be looked upon as a continuum, at one end of which are cases where the evidence as to identity of the murderer is purely circumstantial and proof of motive on the part of the Crown so essential that reference must be made to motive in charging the jury. At the other end of the continuum, and requiring a charge on motive, is the case where there is proved absence of motive and this may become of great significance as a matter in favour of the accused. Between these two end points in the continuum there are cases where the necessity to charge on motive depends upon the course of the trial and the nature and probative value of the evidence adduced. In these cases, a substantial discretion must be left to the trial judge.

In the present case any instruction on motive would have had to make clear that there was no obligation on the Crown to prove motive ...
<bbm>
 
  • #234
WRT motive .. from an old precedent of Lewis v. The Queen:

http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2635/index.do

Held: The appeal should be dismissed.

Accepting the term "motive" in a criminal law sense as meaning "ulterior intention", it is possible, upon the authorities, to formulate the following propositions: (1) As evidence, motive is always relevant and hence evi*dence of motive is admissible. (2) Motive is no part of the crime and is legally irrelevant to criminal responsibility. It is not an essential element of the prosecution's case as a matter of law. (3) Proved absence of motive is always an important fact in favour of the accused and

[Page 822]

ordinarily worthy of note in a charge to the jury. (4) Conversely, proved presence of motive may be an impor*tant factual ingredient in the Crown's case, notably on the issues of identity and intention, when the evidence is purely circumstantial. (5) Motive is therefore always a question of fact and evidence and the necessity of referring to motive in the charge to the jury falls within the general duty of the trial judge "to not only outline the theories of the prosecution and defence but to give the jury matters of evidence essential in arriving at a just conclusion." (6) Each case will turn on its own unique set of circumstances. The issue of motive is always a matter of degree.

Applying the foregoing propositions to the present case, motive was not proven as part of the Crown's case, nor was absence of motive proven by the defence. There was, therefore, no clear obligation in law to charge on motive. Whether or not to charge became, therefore, a matter of judgment for the trial judge and his judgment should not be lightly reversed.

Every summing-up must be regarded in the light of the conduct of the trial and the questions which have been raised by the counsel for the prosecution and for the defence respectively: per Alverstone L.C.J. in R. v. Stoddart (1909), 2 Cr. App. R. 217 at p. 246. Counsel at trial did not ask the judge to instruct on motive, and the judge obviously felt that such instruction was not called for, in the light of the entire trial.

The necessity of charging a jury on motive may be looked upon as a continuum, at one end of which are cases where the evidence as to identity of the murderer is purely circumstantial and proof of motive on the part of the Crown so essential that reference must be made to motive in charging the jury. At the other end of the continuum, and requiring a charge on motive, is the case where there is proved absence of motive and this may become of great significance as a matter in favour of the accused. Between these two end points in the continuum there are cases where the necessity to charge on motive depends upon the course of the trial and the nature and probative value of the evidence adduced. In these cases, a substantial discretion must be left to the trial judge.

In the present case any instruction on motive would have had to make clear that there was no obligation on the Crown to prove motive ...

<bbm>

Rbbm

Thanks SillyBilly, this case offers an interesting explanation for the different requirements for motive in different cases. This judge's propositions seem to shed light on the possible consequences of not having a motive to present to the jury, saying that it can be an important fact in favour of the accused and worthy of note. He also seems to be saying that in cases where identity and intention may be in question, that motive can be very important.

To me that relates to this case in that, if both MS and DM said 'it was the other guy, not me', and other evidence does not clearly point to one or the other, then the jury may have to decide which one had more motive to commit the crime, in my opinion.
 
  • #235
You edited my quote to insert your own bolds .. nay nay !!! That's a misquote ;)
 
  • #236
For those who still consider the possibility of one or more individuals being an alternate suspect as part of a defence, I found this wiki interesting (haven't had time to read all the references though):

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Evidence/Character/Alternative_Suspect_Evidence

The defence may attempt to raise a doubt by suggesting that the offence was committed by a third-party.[1] The defence can only be raised where there is sufficient evidence to connect a third-party to the offence.

Suggesting another party has the potential to open a real can of worms for the defence:

As such, the crown will be permitted to lead evidence on the investigative process that includes hearsay and bad character evidence of the accused.
 
  • #237
Thrill kill motive?

James Van Allen, former head of the OPP's criminal profiling unit, believes whoever is responsible had murder in mind from the get-go.

"This could have been a standard carjacking: overpower him, leave him," said Van Allen, who heads the Behavioural Sciences Group in Langley, B.C.

"But we see a determination here to not be detected, to delay discovery or identification of the body. When Mr. Bosma went for the test drive, he was a marked man."

He added that the killer is someone who is exploitive, abusive, lacks any empathy and is a risk-taker.


The murder deviates from what is typically seen in the car theft racket, he said, where excessive violence is not the norm.


"This is too elaborate to steal one truck; to have these allegations of multiple people involved, multiple attempts to access a truck."


What doesn't add up, he said, is why anyone would murder for a truck. And "is the crime incongruent with the person charged?"

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2...abusive-exploitive-and-a-risk-taker-profiler/

I would agree with those statements

One of the reasons I believe murder was pre-planned along with the truck theft is elimination of a (potentially excellent) witness (Tim)

Dumb as they are , I would have a hard time believing that DM & MS would go through all the covert staging for the test drive just to let a first hand witness go free to identify them.

Occasionally we see smash and grab carjackings where the drivers are set free but in those cases it is usually a criminal needing a quick ride on the spur of the moment .

At 9:20 pm May 06 2013 , DM & MS were not in a situation where they suddenly needed a vehicle . They were there because they planned to be there , and they were doing the things they planned to do.

If not for the huge publicity in the days following ..... they would likely have gotten away with it
 
  • #238
To me that relates to this case in that, if both MS and DM said 'it was the other guy, not me', and other evidence does not clearly point to one or the other, then the jury may have to decide which one had more motive to commit the crime, in my opinion.
<rsbm>

Jubalee, I responded to the above part of your post but my post disappeared very quickly. Um, wasn't a TOS violation to my knowledge, but will have to leave it alone in case it somehow related to the in-camera session. No clue :waitasec:

LOL .. if THIS post disappears, it's that darn invisible ink I bought ;)
 
  • #239
You edited my quote to insert your own bolds .. nay nay !!! That's a misquote ;)

I didn't see your reply, other than this one which makes me realize that I should have erased your bbm at the bottom. Sorry!

Now I'm curious about your deleted post, dammit!
 
  • #240
I would agree with those statements

One of the reasons I believe murder was pre-planned along with the truck theft is elimination of a (potentially excellent) witness (Tim)

Dumb as they are , I would have a hard time believing that DM & MS would go through all the covert staging for the test drive just to let a first hand witness go free to identify them.

Occasionally we see smash and grab carjackings where the drivers are set free but in those cases it is usually a criminal needing a quick ride on the spur of the moment .

At 9:20 pm May 06 2013 , DM & MS were not in a situation where they suddenly needed a vehicle . They were there because they planned to be there , and they were doing the things they planned to do.

If not for the huge publicity in the days following ..... they would likely have gotten away with it


If they did not want to leave a witness behind, why didn't they go back and kill SB as well? That's what real psychopaths would do. Or someone who got a thrill from killing and wanted to escape detection.

As to your quote, I agree that we should be asking "is the crime incongruent with the person charged?"
 
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