Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

[Carli]

I do not have an issue with the statement spoken by AG Meilleur: ...... “When this procedure is supported, it’s because there is good evidence that the person that is accused will be convicted.”

That is all a Preliminary hearing would have accomplished ....... ie: determining if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial and obtaining a conviction

AG Meilleur simply told us what a Preliminary hearing would have told us.

Actually, Arnie, your description is quite right up until the conjunction. PH rulings do not relate to "obtaining a conviction", as we know.

Oh and just for the record I think AG Meilleur sounds like an absolutely swell person. Her bio references her many outstanding accomplishments and amply demonstrates that she is an extraordinarily capable servant of the public. Beyond doubt Ontarians are very very fortunate to have someone of her stature in the legislature. But AG. Maybe that's another thing at the moment. After listening to her on-air interview, in which, frankly, she seemed quite unsure of her ground. I have a suspicion that, with this decision, she had just trying to be nice. Just handing a lovely compliment from the new boss, down the ladder to her Crown attorneys and prosecutors in a complicated investigation "You've done a splendid job, boys. Mama's proud." IMO. MOO. Oh my, oh my, oh my.

 

[lclabtech]

Huh? How so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

Yeah, from your link - I don't see which of DM's Rights and Freedoms are actually being violated here.

1 Right to be informed of the offence
2 Right to be tried within a reasonable time
3 Right not to be compelled to be a witness
4 Right to be presumed innocent
5 Right not to be denied reasonable bail
6 Right to trial by jury
7 Right not to be found guilty unless action constituted an offence
8 Right not to be tried again
9 Right to lesser punishment

While what she said was... questionable?... I still don't believe the rights and freedoms DM is supposed to receive aren't being met.

Do you actually think we'll see a constitutional challenge here?

 

[Carli]

Yeah, from your link - I don't see which of DM's Rights and Freedoms are actually being violated here.

1 Right to be informed of the offence
2 Right to be tried within a reasonable time
3 Right not to be compelled to be a witness
4 Right to be presumed innocent
5 Right not to be denied reasonable bail
6 Right to trial by jury
7 Right not to be found guilty unless action constituted an offence
8 Right not to be tried again
9 Right to lesser punishment

While what she said was... questionable?... I still don't believe the rights and freedoms DM is supposed to receive aren't being met.

Do you actually think we'll see a constitutional challenge here?

Uhm, I'm not going to get into the jungle of possibilities most of firmly grounded in extensive case law here. Life is short. More importantly, we know very little about this case, although the linquistics pillow fights and sports score tallying is entertaining sometimes, IMO. But, if you insist, let's pick one. Any one. The presumption of innocence thingy. The following is cribbed from the same link:

Section 11(d) provides that:

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right ...

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

“The reference to a fair hearing allows one a right to "full answer and defence", a right also based in section 7 of the Charter ("fundamental justice").

As for whether this will go further up the green chain who knows what the Defense response may be?

 

[lclabtech]

Uhm, I'm not going to get into the jungle of possibilities most of firmly grounded in extensive case law here. Life is short. More importantly, we know very little about this case, although the linquistics pillow fights and sports score tallying is entertaining sometimes, IMO. But, if you insist, let's pick one. Any one. The presumption of innocence thingy. The following is cribbed from the same link:

Section 11(d) provides that:

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right ...

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

“The reference to a fair hearing allows one a right to "full answer and defence", a right also based in section 7 of the Charter ("fundamental justice").

As for whether this will go further up the green chain who knows what the Defense response may be?

Pick one? As in you think others could possibly apply here?

And yes, you picked one but you didn't exactly explain how DM isn't getting that right.

DM will get a fair and public hearing in front of an independent and impartial tribunal and will be presumed innocent until proven guilty by said independent and impartial tribunal.

although the linquistics pillow fights and sports score tallying is entertaining sometimes,

I don't quite know what you're referring to here... it comes across as awfully condescending.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Snipped from AD's post #1042
I'd still be very interested to know why LE never determined that the gun was illegal when they initially investigated WM's death. If that illegal gun was the one that was used, then LE missed some major checks in their original investigation. You would think that would be one of the first things on the list - the registration of the gun and a comparison of the bullet to the gun used.

Quite possibly LE were in the midst of figuring out who was the original owner of the gun was. Maybe they did find the rightful owner and he didn't know it was stolen from him, therefore there would be no way of tracing it until it showed up in a case such as WM's suicide. After all there's been reports stating DM's father's death was not a closed case.

Could be when LE questioned DM about the gun found with WM, DM made up some cockamamie story saying he knew his dad had obtained the gun but didn't know how. In actuality we don't know what was going on behind the scene in regard to WM's death investigation, therefore we shouldn't jump to conclusions LE let something like this slide or missed it in the investigation of WM's death IMO.

So are you still assuming that WM was killed with a long gun? Now that it's been reported that LE believe he was killed with an illegal gun purchased from MWJ, combined with all the discussion about the holsters that DM allegedly bought, I thought it would be more likely that a hand gun was used. All hand guns must be registered, so it would be a pretty fast and simple check to see who it was registered to. If the serial numbers were gone, it's a pretty clear assumption that it's illegal and would warrant further investigating before ruling a death as a suicide. Somehow I just can't picture that the illegal gun DM purchased was a regular old rifle or shotgun. Even those were still registered until April 2012 and the registry data was not removed until that November. So, I guess, if it was a rifle that he purchased and used, it was good timing for when that registry was supposedly deleted.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/online_en-ligne/reg_enr-eng.htm#a2

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/toews-says-long-gun-registry-data-deleted-gun-fans-cheer-1.1241664

Furthermore, WM's case was investigated and closed by LE as a suicide. Only the coroner's case remained open. It's not the coroner's job to determine if a gun is legal or not.

Following Millard's arrest, Toronto reopened its investigation into the Nov. 29 death of Wayne Millard, Dellen's father.

Wayne reportedly died of a gunshot wound at his Etobicoke home. His family has said they believe it was a suicide. His remains have been cremated.

Detectives from 22 Division investigated and closed the case. The coroner's investigation has remained open, likely awaiting toxicology results — a common step in a sudden death case.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3255379-clairmont-where-questions-trump-answers/

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

That input would be evidence. Respectfully do you suspect the defense has solid evidence to show their client is innocent? IMHO I don't, otherwise it would have come to the table long ago and the accused would not be where they are today. So it just goes to reason there is only input from one side; the Crown's case. MOO.

Obviously, if the defense had irrefutable proof of innocence, we wouldn't be here today. How wonderful our world would be if every case was that solidly black and white. However, regardless of what the defense has or doesn't has, they do not have an opportunity to present it, nor do they have the opportunity to refute any of the evidence the Crown has, when a submission is made to the AG for a direct indictment. The submission is always from one side only, the Crown. The defense has no part in the submission at all, ever.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I think accessory to theft of a motor vehicle is a much lesser charge, so they wouldn’t pursue it at this time? The accessory after the fact to murder charge is a possible life sentence.

<snip> I agree that there are a number of things that can be taken either way&#8230;thanks for your comments Althea



[DM] then told [SL] that [LB] had developed a drug problem and that he had been supplying her with cocaine for months.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/police-pr...suspect-missing-woman-1.1286814#ixzz37pebPmRg

So all parties aside, it seems that DM was LB&#8217;s drug supplier in the last few months of her life. Where did he get these drugs? Well DM has a buddy, and there is a guy that DM bought a gun off of, both of which would know where to get cocaine:

[MS]&#8217;s rap sheet includes possession of cocaine
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/
[MWJ], 26, of Mississauga, is charged with: [&#8230;] 6. Possession of cocaine
http://cornwallfreenews.com/2014/01...ce-blotter-for-monday-jan-6-2014-tps-opp-cps/
If LB was getting drugs from DM for months it is likely she knew a bit about his routines and his suppliers and could cause DM a whole lotta grief if she went off to LE. MS and MWJ would also appreciate it if LB kept her mouth shut.


MS&#8217;s style is southern rap, trap and crunk. If he was going to pick any vehicle to steal for himself it would likely be a caddy&#8230;maybe an Escalade? OTOH, trying to visualize MS in a Dodge RAM truck the only rap song that comes to mind is Weird Al Yankovic&#8217;s cover of Chamillionaire&#8217;s Ridin&#8217; Dirty, &#8220;White & Nerdy&#8221;.

The Dodge RAM is definitely DM&#8217;s style. The choice of truck shows DM is the dominant personality.

Caddy or RAM, a truck like that would just be a huge heat score in the hands of MS. The best way to hide a stolen truck is to take it apart into pieces, and DM had the means and reason to do this (replace the engine in his existing RAM).

I'd like to think an accessory charge would be worth pursuing when it's a third person who has been charged with nothing.

I know it's been reported many times that DM was supplying LB with cocaine, but in SL's interview with ABro, he said the CTV article was inaccurate and that DM did not say that he had been supplying her, only that she asked for drugs.

I listened to a tape of an interview I did with SL. He said CTV was inaccurate. DM did not tell SL that he had supplied Laura with drugs for months.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?215508-Laura-Babcock-Dellen-Millard-and-Mark-Smich-charged-with-Murder-in-the-First-Degree&p=10570173#post10570173

I'm not much for rap or hip hop, but these guys seem to like trucks. They even incorporate the RAM symbol into their logo. And besides rap, they seem to also enjoy drugs, illegal guns and car hijacking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QFVNP1G6PE

http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music/7c/e5/e2/mzi.qyniicjt.170x170-75.jpg

http://articles.philly.com/2003-12-21/news/25471183_1_rap-group-drug-ring-drug-dealer

MS could also need a truck to haul around his stones.

https://twitter.com/justinatthespec/statuses/337311183478611968

I seem to remember some talk about the engine not matching DM's and not being an easy switch.

JMO

 

[Carli]

Pick one? As in you think others could possibly apply here?

And yes, you picked one but you didn't exactly explain how DM isn't getting that right.

DM will get a fair and public hearing in front of an independent and impartial tribunal and will be presumed innocent until proven guilty by said independent and impartial tribunal.



I don't quite know what you're referring to here... it comes across as awfully condescending.

The Attorney General is the Minister of Justice who, in her role as representative of the Crown has publically determined and so advised the Crown that there is sufficient evidence to convict the accused. In other words, based on information provided to her alone by her own department she is convinced that the evidence proves the Defendant's guilt. In still other words, the trial is just a formality because the the Crown has already acknowledged that the accused is known to be guilty.

Were you able to find that "independent and impartial" part? That right to face one's accuser's part?

(See "abuse of process" and other stuff. etc.)

Fortunately, as the &#8220;chief law enforcement officer,&#8221; the Attorney General is accountable to the Legislature and society for the process through which justice is administered and for departmental decisions that are made in respect of specific cases. The Supreme Court of Canada has observed that the Attorney General is restrained only &#8220;by his final accountability to Parliament.&#8221; Being both accountable and independent means that the Attorney General &#8220;functions within the context of two key constitutional principles &#8211; parliamentary supremacy and the rule of law.&#8221;

Once, further long ago than I care to recall, I once had the horrible task of shooting and editing 60 hours of videotape that cobbled together a series of programs titlede "Arrest To Trial". This still a sadistic inclusion in many first year law schools across the country. My eyes still cloud over at the memory of all the twists, turns and esoteric details of this excruiatingly boring endeavour.l Which is probably why I'm tired of this, at least for today. Going away now.

Sorry you find a reference to the entertainment value of linquistic pillow fights and sports score tallying to be condescending. I was going for funny, but at least I thought it was kind of clever. Ah, but maybe that's condescending too. Darn it, yet another personality flaw to deal with, and I haven't even resolved the brain fart issues yet. LOL. Cheers. :seeya:

 

[SnooperDuper]

So are you still assuming that WM was killed with a long gun? Now that it's been reported that LE believe he was killed with an illegal gun purchased from MWJ, combined with all the discussion about the holsters that DM allegedly bought, I thought it would be more likely that a hand gun was used. All hand guns must be registered, so it would be a pretty fast and simple check to see who it was registered to. If the serial numbers were gone, it's a pretty clear assumption that it's illegal and would warrant further investigating before ruling a death as a suicide. Somehow I just can't picture that the illegal gun DM purchased was a regular old rifle or shotgun. Even those were still registered until April 2012 and the registry data was not removed until that November. So, I guess, if it was a rifle that he purchased and used, it was good timing for when that registry was supposedly deleted.

<rsbm>

You made me Google "can you use handgun ammo in a rifle" and the answer is yes, there are a lot of possibilities there.

Actually, I don't believe there is a pistol round that is not used in a rifle. Most revolver rounds (.38, .357, .44, .500) are also chambered in lever action rifles.

9mm is the most common carbine round, but they are also chambered in .40, .45, and 10mm

And a great many guns are chambered in the .22LR

WM could have been shot with a handgun and posed with his own long gun, and if the two guns accepted the same kind of ammo, it may not have been immediately apparent that there was any mismatch.

 

[lclabtech]

The Attorney General is the Minister of Justice who, in her role as representative of the Crown has publically determined and so advised the Crown that there is sufficient evidence to convict the accused. In other words, based on information provided to her alone by her own department she is convinced that the evidence proves the Defendant's guilt. In still other words, the trial is just a formality because the the Crown has already acknowledged that the accused is known to be guilty.

That's twisting, IMO. "There's good evidence the accused will become convicted" isn't "The trial is just a formality" or "The guy is guilty".

Were you able to find that "independent and impartial" part? That right to face one's accuser's part?

Yes, I was "able to find" the part about independent and impartial, as you know, because you quoted me saying it.

And yes, I believe the jury will be independent and impartial. And yes, I believe DM will receive the right to face his accusers.

 

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm>

You made me Google "can you use handgun ammo in a rifle" and the answer is yes, there are a lot of possibilities there.

WM could have been shot with a handgun and posed with his own long gun, and if the two guns accepted the same kind of ammo, it may not have been immediately apparent that there was any mismatch.

So he would need to make sure that both the handgun and the rifle were the same caliber - both .45's or both .357's type of thing. Correct?

 

[Carli]

That's twisting, IMO. "There's good evidence the accused will become convicted" isn't "The trial is just a formality" or "The guy is guilty".



Yes, I was "able to find" the part about independent and impartial, as you know, because you quoted me saying it.

And yes, I believe the jury will be independent and impartial. And yes, I believe DM will receive the right to face his accusers.

Yes, I'm sure he will and that may be interesting, but that's not the point. His guilt has already been prejudiced. The Crown has already found him guilty. He cannot have a fair trial.

But please don't knock your knickers over this. I'm not the enemy. Rational argument is not "twisting". If I have a dog in this race, it's the underdog. Always is. As I said. Personality flaws? As I also suggested, let's put this to rest. At this rate this discussion is headed for quasi-torts and sixteenth century precedents and lord knows what else. Please let me extend my sincere hope to mutually and respectfully disagree and carry on.

 

[Carli]

Yanno, to change the subject, and maybe to allude to some of ABro's challenges, (even though I'm loathe to do so but I think she's kind of neat) , I'm still hung up on all sorts of little things. Maybe the information has been posted here but I was kind of out of commission for several months and not checking in. So let me just ask, do we know where TB's vehicle was transferred to the transport trailer? Do we know who drove the trailer to MB's place and left it there? Do we know who must logically have accompanied that person to drive him/her home, unless the truck was driven by MB herself (which I view as highly unlikely.) Is there any evidence that the transport trailer ever went first to the farm? I suppose this presumes that poor TB's body must have been onboard, and offloaded at the farm. But then, why not leave the trailer in the barn? So how did TB's body get to the farm? Skipping forward through the little snippets of reports we've so far received we know the purpose of this incinerator thingy is to dispose of little critters, mostly dead chickens. The chute is far too small to shove an entire person through. Therefore, the grisly business of chopping up people into sufficiently small pieces must be undertaken. Sorry to be upsetting, but that's just how it is. So where did all this butchery take place? At the hangar? Was there evidence found there to support the theory? Did TB do this all by himself? How were the pieces transported to the farm (if TB's truck was already headed to mom's house.) Alternatively, if the activity took place at the farm, there should have been oodles of evidence that the chopping up happened in or near the incinerator. Is there? Of course, all this sets aside, for the moment, the idea that even IF evidence of chopping up TB took place at either the hangar OR the farm, then we still must find proof that DM was the one who did it. Do we have knives or saws or something, anything, that supports definitive DNA? But then, we've also devined that there hasn't actually been any LE confirmation that TB was burned in this incinerator. So where WAS he burned? At the farm? If not, how did his ashes get to the farm? Oh, my gosh, there are SO many more nigglies associated with this case, and that's not even approaching the huge number of contestable issues associated with the death of WM and the presumed death of LB. Wait. Now, I remember. I said I was leaving. fftobed: Nap time.

 

[matou]

[h=1]Likely a year before alleged Bosma killers go to trial: Clairmont[/h]
The Bosma family was there, as they always have been, seated in the first and second rows waiting for what amounts to brief glimpses of the men charged with abducting and murdering Tim.
Millard is looking heavier than he did when he was first arrested a little more than a year ago, and he now has a beard and shaggy hair. As usual, he stood in an orange jumpsuit at the Hamilton-Wentworth Detention Centre, hands folded in front of himself, speaking confidently when spoken to.
Smich, beamed in from Toronto East Detention Centre and also in orange, has not changed much during his months behind bars. Like always, he said little.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...-alleged-bosma-killers-go-to-trial-clairmont/

 

[SnooperDuper]

I'd like to think an accessory charge would be worth pursuing when it's a third person who has been charged with nothing.

CN already has a charge and I think she is #3 as well. Thus, no need to pursue the lesser accessory to the theft of a motor vehicle, IMHO.

I know it's been reported many times that DM was supplying LB with cocaine, but in SL's interview with ABro, he said the CTV article was inaccurate and that DM did not say that he had been supplying her, only that she asked for drugs.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?215508-Laura-Babcock-Dellen-Millard-and-Mark-Smich-charged-with-Murder-in-the-First-Degree&p=10570173#post10570173

All I can say is DM and LB, sex and drugs, how long before that blows up?

I'm not much for rap or hip hop, but these guys seem to like trucks. They even incorporate the RAM symbol into their logo. And besides rap, they seem to also enjoy drugs, illegal guns and car hijacking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QFVNP1G6PE

http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music/7c/e5/e2/mzi.qyniicjt.170x170-75.jpg

http://articles.philly.com/2003-12-21/news/25471183_1_rap-group-drug-ring-drug-dealer

Oh my. Rap lesson. Please observe East Coast rap act, (R)ichard (A)llen (M)ob Squad out of Philadelphia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAqEK38yD8o

Is that beat familiar? It's Bill Withers, "Just the Two of Us", and again that's East Coast.

So now you should watch Drake's latest. Trappy drum machines, heavy synths...this is Southern rap. Sorry about the language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccnAvfLPvE

MS's circle is into Southern rap. The guy that did the video with him is into trap, and MWJ is into crunk and horrorcore, which are all styles of Southern rap that come out of Memphis.

Drake has a momma in Forest Hill and an ex-con, ex-musician father in Memphis. He was first signed by an American Southern rap artist. Now that he's made his millions, he's developing artists in Toronto and this is a style he is bringing forward.

That Drake video had special guest stars from the Three 6 Mafia and if you check out MWJ's promotion of his track "Red Shoes", he claims to be working with the Three 6 Mafia too. The dead guy in MWJ's Facebook is Lord Infamous from the Three 6 Mafia. (The truth is after the talent in the Three 6 Mafia went on to solo careers, the dregs reformed as The Mafia 6ix, and one of the guys that they hired, is working with MWJ).

Anyway, no, wrong kind of rap. East Coast and Southern ain't the same thing.

Southern rap is about lowriders, rims, caddies. No Dodge RAM trucks.

MS could also need a truck to haul around his stones.

https://twitter.com/justinatthespec/statuses/337311183478611968

So you think MS has got stones? LOL. Sure, it's unconfirmed that once in a lifetime his mom has to move stones on her property. Wouldn't you want to use a flatbed as described for this, whose bed would not be damaged by the weight of the stones, than a pickup that is going to be dinged all to **** when you throw a pile of stones on the relatively soft truck bed? There is a good reason they were using a float, which can withstand having the weight of construction equipment and similar being set upon it. Not even a bed liner can protect a pickup bed against damage from a load of stones.

I seem to remember some talk about the engine not matching DM's and not being an easy switch.

JMO

Hey, these guys have all the time in the world. It's not like they have jobs.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Yes, I'm sure he will and that may be interesting, but that's not the point. His guilt has already been prejudiced. The Crown has already found him guilty. He cannot have a fair trial.

IMO

The Crown in any case has to present him or her guilty. That is their place in a trial.

Just like the Defense has to present him or her innocent. That is their place.

For all purposes that is their belief.

With all due respect...Saying that the Crown feeling DM and MS are guilty is cause for a unfair trial just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[lclabtech]

IMO

The Crown in any case has to present him or her guilty. That is their place in a trial.

Just like the Defense has to present him or her innocent. That is their place.

For all purposes that is their belief.

With all due respect...Saying that the Crown feeling DM and MS are guilty is cause for a unfair trial just doesn't make any sense to me.

Pretty much along the lines of what I was going to say but it was requested I drop it. Definitely agree with this though - DM will get a fair trial. I don't expect DP to argue any differently either.

 

[matou]

Millard and Smich won&#8217;t attend the pre-trial date on September 9th. They&#8217;ll be back in court on September 19th, when dates will be set for pre-trial motions, if there are any. The Justice of the Peace will also try to finalize a trial date at that appearance.

http://www.chch.com/bosma-accused-make-court-appearance/

 

[matou]

DP was not present in court today:

Elise Copps &#8207;@EliseCoppsCHCH 7h
Dellen Millard is now on screen for his video appearance. His lawyer not present.

Ann Brocklehurst &#8207;@AnnB03 6h
Tick tock. Tom Dungey's bill is adding up while waiting for Mark Smich to appear. No lawyer was here for Dellen Millard

 

[JPC]

More articles based on bypassing the PH in this case.

http://www.citynews.ca/2014/07/16/dellen-millard-mark-smich-going-straight-to-trial/

http://www.chch.com/millard-smitch-will-go-straight-trial/

“The provision is there if there is a solid case and justice will be better served by going directly to trial,” Meilleur said Wednesday.

“It’s not often that this happens. It’s a special procedure.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/07/16/tim-bosma-murder-accused-going-straight-to-trial

This article at the bottom has some significant dates to scroll through relating to this case. Note error DM's arrest was May 10th, not the 11th. HTH.

http://www.ourwindsor.ca/news-story/4635370-bosma-case-experts-weigh-in-on-crown-s-strategy/

And one by Susan Clairmont
http://m.thespec.com/news-story/464...-alleged-bosma-killers-go-to-trial-clairmont/