Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

[bessie]

In the news conference for MS's arrest LE announced that at that point they were executing more than 15 search warrants and production orders and following up on more than 700 tips.

That would be the May 22 HPS presser. We need a transcript!

cf. this case, http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬-bust-in-canadian-history-report/

LE traced 8,940 IP addresses and arrested 60.

So maybe they are talking about most computers used in the same category of crime (i.e., excluding computer crimes)?

It's hard to say. Of the 60 arrests mentioned above, I'd think the majority were individual users accessing child , and who were not involved in production or distribution. I don't know if that makes a difference, but I think it might if the individual users were not charged as part of the conspiracy.

What we need is Leitch's definition of "Ontario criminal law history". lol

Tony Leitch, the Hamilton Crown attorney prosecuting the Bosma case, says the project involves "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history."

http://www.insidehalton.com/news-st...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

Beside the bust you cited, I found these recent cases where large numbers of devices were seized.

20 computers seized in the bust of a gambling ring.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/03/05/london-homes-raided-in-gambling-ring-bust

24 computers seized in the criminal investigation of two gas plant cancellations.

http://www.insidehalton.com/news-st...s-his-computer-not-among-those-seized-by-opp/
http://london.ctvnews.ca/hard-drive...zed-as-part-of-gas-plants-probe-opp-1.1706955

45 terabytes of data seized in the Azovfilms child bust. This was an international sting led by the Toronto Police Sex Crimes Unit.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/joy-...estigation-child-sexual-abu/10153509305300235

32 servers seized in Ontario in the Megaupload case. This one might not count since it was a U.S. investigation.

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...-of-america-v-equinix-inc-2013-onsc-193.shtml

http://www.davis.ca/en/publication/...s-cross-border-data-seizure-order-in-ontario/

Who knows where this investigation falls within those numbers. Regardless, I think we can suffice to say, it's pretty darn big. JMO

 

[bessie]

Yes, thank you, that was the quote that I was thinking of. It really makes me wonder though if there is any way to verify this. It would be interesting to quantify the amount of computers grabbed in the other largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal history to compare what is a large amount. Again, I would have thought that the largest seizures would come from major computer fraud or child ring busts, not from a few people's phones and computers and x-boxes. Has anyone seen any data on what constitutes one of the largest seizes in Ontario criminal history?

ITA! That's why the statement is so intriguing. It indicates something on a grand scale, an entire network of illegal operations! As Sillybilly said, based on what we know, it likely involves the trade of firearms, stolen vehicle parts, and perhaps drugs, as well. Unless there is another underlying component of which we're not yet aware.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I haven't jumped in on this yet because I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (a lot of computers were seized...and therefore what? I feel like people are hinting at something but I'm not sure what). Anyway, do we know what types of devices fit into the definition of "computer" here? For example, smartphones, tablets, newer generation gaming consoles, etc? I would imagine a rich kid could rack up a whole lot of individual devices, especially if he always has the latest phone/tablet/laptop and doesn't get rid of older devices once he upgrades. Plus, his Steam account indicates a PC gamer; gaming-capable computers require pretty frequent hardware upgrades as well.

 

[matou]

I haven't jumped in on this yet because I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (a lot of computers were seized...and therefore what? I feel like people are hinting at something but I'm not sure what). Anyway, do we know what types of devices fit into the definition of "computer" here? For example, smartphones, tablets, newer generation gaming consoles, etc? I would imagine a rich kid could rack up a whole lot of individual devices, especially if he always has the latest phone/tablet/laptop and doesn't get rid of older devices once he upgrades. Plus, his Steam account indicates a PC gamer; PC-capable gaming computers require pretty frequent hardware upgrades as well.

I was wondering too. I think external drives for storage count too but not sure about the term 'computer' either.

 

[iPhoneGuy]

What? Can you explain a bit more what you're talking about, with names if possible? I.e, are you saying you know for a fact that CN was "present throughout the whole murder" and is now "co-operating" with LE? Or is this just opinion? If you're stating it as insider info you may want to get verified with the site as a case insider.

They were stating from another incident, with no implication to the current matters of discussion.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Never mind, total reading comprehension failure on my part.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Clairmont is usually pretty bang-on, and it was shown as a direct quote attributed to the Crown Attorney:

from:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

Probably just semantics but does pleading "not guilty" mean the same as "not pleading guilty" ?

His lawyer, Deepak Paradkar, was quick to challenge the new charges when contacted by the Toronto Star, casting doubt on any claims the cases are linked. He told the Star that Millard will not plead guilty.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well in this day and age it would be hard to believe that LE did not have a program that was able to snake Facebook in their arsenal.

A snake is a program that you point to a webpage and it will go through and copy down the site and images, page by page, you just specify just this site, or this site and everything linked to it, or the site, all things (1st degree) linked to it and all sites (2nd degree) linked to (1st degree) linked sites, etc. You can snake just the site or two sites deep or so on. Anyway...

Both after DM's arrest and after MS's, it was apparent that their social networks used Facebook extensively and that all involved were slow to change their privacy settings so as to block out the public. LE could have visited freely and found cause to investigate further.

I expect for every interesting person out there, LE made a request to Facebook for their data file, and for that they would have needed a production order, I guess? Facebook stores everything you have ever given them in the way of data, every change and deletion, forever and ever. You can spend an hour deleting every thing you ever posted to Facebook in your life, and when it comes to LE requesting that data, they will still get everything you've ever posted plus the date and time you deleted it.

Facebook also logs whenever you log in and out, the device, location, the IP, etc.

Facebook also asks in its user contract that you use your real identity, verify it, hold only one account and so on so it is easier for LE to request and receive data...

...than say with Twitter, that asks for no real name or verification, doesn't store even IP information for more than a fleeting period, and really honestly deletes things when you ask them to. Well, after 30 days they do, but they do. Instagram is similar to Twitter. Things do get deleted.

Smartphones, LE will be able to get all the text messages that came or went from one, and if you're using a network, you're going to leave a trail of everywhere you've been. LE mentioned placing some wiretaps, and there will also be browser and app data in the smartphones.

More traditional computers will contain browser data, financial records (e.g., Millardair), schedules, personal email, etc.

So perhaps largest computer seizure means a mountain of data from various digital sources?

Local news, Waterloo based OpenText, which makes systems that track big piles of data like this and let you sort it out into a timeline ("Enterprise Information Management"), got a $120M investment from the Ontario government this week. I wonder who build the EIM for the OPP? Anyway that's the kind of system LE is using.

What's DP using, shareware?

 

[Arnie M]

Thanks Arnie. Yes I have seen bits and pieces from that video but not the part where mom and dad were both present. Maybe I'm mistaken and that woman in the video isn't MB. I had always wondered if mom partook in her son's accomplishment that day and when I saw that bit of the video I just assumed it was MB with WM.

Something else I've always wondered also, were WM and MB every married? This animal activist article you posted was written in 1981, four years before DM was born and her last name was Burns then also. Wonder if they were ever married or if she just decided to keep her last name. It wasn't a common occurrence for a woman to marry and not take on her husband's last name back in those days. Most articles do read his parents divorced, but were they ever married? This article which I linked also states DM was raised by his dad. It's one thing to say he lived with dad, but it's like MB is not getting any credit kwim. I really have to wonder what kind of relationship mom and son had/have. Was DM an accident maybe? If so, did he grow up knowing this or believing this? JMO.

His parents divorced when he was young and he was raised by his father, the scion of an aviation industry magnate. Wayne Millard had watched in pride when his son in August 1999 took flight at the Brampton Flying Club to become the youngest Canadian to fly solo in both an airplane and a helicopter. Dellen was then 14.

You stopped me in my tracks swedie ... good point ... we know the mom and the dad but nothing about marriage per say ....

I have always perceived Wayne as a freedom loving professional pilot of passenger jets who took objection to anyone telling him what he should be , that was admirable in the 1980's

I perceive Madeline Burns as a very pretty and free spirited gal who worked professionally as a stewardess for major airlines and could be anywhere in the world she wanted to be

Those two wonderful people had aviation freedom and a love for animals in common and probably met under those circumstances , then they ended up having a son whom they were so proud of because he flew helicopters and fixed wing at 14 years of age

Nobodie's kid had ever done that before.

My heart breaks for Madeline , we never hear anyone have a bad thing to say about her , or Wayne for that matter.

 

[matou]

You stopped me in my tracks swedie ... good point ... we know the mom and the dad but nothing about marriage per say ....

I have always perceived Wayne as a freedom loving professional pilot of passenger jets who took objection to anyone telling him what he should be , that was admirable in the 1980's

I perceive Madeline Burns as a very pretty and free spirited gal who worked professionally as a stewardess for major airlines and could be anywhere in the world she wanted to be

Those two wonderful people had aviation freedom and a love for animals in common and probably met under those circumstances , then they ended up having a son whom they were so proud of because he flew helicopters and fixed wing at 14 years of age

Nobodie's kid had ever done that before.

My heart breaks for Madeline , we never hear anyone have a bad thing to say about her , or Wayne for that matter.

I didn't realize that DM was raised mainly by his father. Interesting IMO. I think MB kept her last name after marriage because that is the practice for French Canadian women from Quebec. I think she is French even though her last name is an English one. JMO

 

[matou]

Weird but someone purchased dellenmillard.com on May 20, 2013. I found a website that was related to 'sex information' but is not working now. Is showing up in google. Troll activity? Info is available in whois though.

 

[ArianeEmory]

There are companies that snatch up any domain name they think may eventually be valuable and then hold onto them for possible resale. DM's name was probably trending massively in news around that time so they grabbed it.

 

[Juballee]

It's hard to say. Of the 60 arrests mentioned above, I'd think the majority were individual users accessing child , and who were not involved in production or distribution. I don't know if that makes a difference, but I think it might if the individual users were not charged as part of the conspiracy.

What we need is Leitch's definition of "Ontario criminal law history". lol Beside the bust you cited, I found these recent cases where large numbers of devices were seized.

20 computers seized in the bust of a gambling ring.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/03/05/london-homes-raided-in-gambling-ring-bust


24 computers seized in the criminal investigation of two gas plant cancellations.

http://www.insidehalton.com/news-st...s-his-computer-not-among-those-seized-by-opp/
http://london.ctvnews.ca/hard-drive...zed-as-part-of-gas-plants-probe-opp-1.1706955

45 terabytes of data seized in the Azovfilms child bust. This was an international sting led by the Toronto Police Sex Crimes Unit.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/joy-...estigation-child-sexual-abu/10153509305300235

32 servers seized in Ontario in the Megaupload case. This one might not count since it was a U.S. investigation.

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...-of-america-v-equinix-inc-2013-onsc-193.shtml

http://www.davis.ca/en/publication/...s-cross-border-data-seizure-order-in-ontario/

Who knows where this investigation falls within those numbers. Regardless, I think we can suffice to say, it's pretty darn big. JMO

Thanks, Bessie, I think that is the closest anyone has come to trying to quantify the possible scope of 'largest computer seizure in Ontario criminal history', but I find it really hard to believe that the largest numbers would only be in the 30's or so. The child bust that was sited a few posts back with 60 arrests had to have had at least 60 computers seized, in my opinion. There haven't been nearly that many charged in this case, I still can't see them having more computers than 60 people who used computers to commit their crimes.

I find it curious that the data for this is not readily available and that the quote does seem to leave the impression that they want us to be curious about it. I really wonder if it is a misquote or something.

 

[MuhGruff]

Thanks, Bessie, I think that is the closest anyone has come to trying to quantify the possible scope of 'largest computer seizure in Ontario criminal history', but I find it really hard to believe that the largest numbers would only be in the 30's or so. The child bust that was sited a few posts back with 60 arrests had to have had at least 60 computers seized, in my opinion. There haven't been nearly that many charged in this case, I still can't see them having more computers than 60 people who used computers to commit their crimes.

I find it curious that the data for this is not readily available and that the quote does seem to leave the impression that they want us to be curious about it. I really wonder if it is a misquote or something.

I'd be shocked if they meant physical computers, most people don't know a lot of details regarding the 'computers' field so the original quote is likely an umbrella term to quantify computers, phones, social sites and any other sites visited/owned as well as obtaining warrants for servers that all their accounts resided on and most people have quite a few accounts scattered throughout the web. Plus the same for all the accomplices and we don't know how big the network was yet.

However If they are actually referring to physical computers seized then I'd assume they were also involved in B&E's (for thrills). I doubt that though, although psychopaths are risk takers and impulsive I don't think B&E's were their thing. Seems to be that this circle were career criminals, as most sociopaths are, so it would be logical to assume they operated some sort of online criminal ring.

I'd speculate DM and Co were involved in some prostitution rings, drugs (which you could buy and sell online still can if you know how) and weapons... Not sure about that one but maybe a few transactions took place. Stolen autoparts were probably their main focus. This is all IMO, but the dude saying the 'largest computer seizure in Canadian Law history' is probably not a 'puter expert. It's beyond local LE resources to hack tor networks and especially the deep Web, where most criminal exchanges take place. RCMP would be involved in that (if they were selling drugs).

If more people here read up on psychopathy and sociopathology then their motives would be more apparent. They need stimulation, they take risks, their exploits eventually escalate, they get involved in illegal activity because of the thrills, they don't experience a wide band of emotion, mostly embarrassment and anger but the joys they get they only get when they know they've done something to wrong someone. These two (dm&ms&co) would try to find a mainstay to keep doing the things that make them happy because not much else does. Unfortunately for TB they were upping the ante because they were probably getting bored with their regular routine of stealing cars and drugs.

I apologize for redundancy and vague speculation in mypost, I'm chasing 2 toddlers around the house ATM and my tablet isn't liking this webpage. I'll come back with some links and quotes soon. Even with all the though I'd still be speculating, I just haven't seen any evidence to say these guys were involved in a huge ring of criminal activity but just big enough to get their thrills. All the computers seized are likely just leads to LE and might not have any evidence on them. I hope so anyway, I don't want to think of this case as bigger than we could imagine...

 

[Juballee]

I'd be shocked if they meant physical computers, most people don't know a lot of details regarding the 'computers' field so the original quote is likely an umbrella term to quantify computers, phones, social sites and any other sites visited/owned as well as obtaining warrants for servers that all their accounts resided on and most people have quite a few accounts scattered throughout the web. Plus the same for all the accomplices and we don't know how big the network was yet.

However If they are actually referring to physical computers seized then I'd assume they were also involved in B&E's (for thrills). I doubt that though, although psychopaths are risk takers and impulsive I don't think B&E's were their thing. Seems to be that this circle were career criminals, as most sociopaths are, so it would be logical to assume they operated some sort of online criminal ring.

I'd speculate DM and Co were involved in some prostitution rings, drugs (which you could buy and sell online still can if you know how) and weapons... Not sure about that one but maybe a few transactions took place. Stolen autoparts were probably their main focus. This is all IMO, but the dude saying the 'largest computer seizure in Canadian Law history' is probably not a 'puter expert. It's beyond local LE resources to hack tor networks and especially the deep Web, where most criminal exchanges take place. RCMP would be involved in that (if they were selling drugs).

If more people here read up on psychopathy and sociopathology then their motives would be more apparent. They need stimulation, they take risks, their exploits eventually escalate, they get involved in illegal activity because of the thrills, they don't experience a wide band of emotion, mostly embarrassment and anger but the joys they get they only get when they know they've done something to wrong someone. These two (dm&ms&co) would try to find a mainstay to keep doing the things that make them happy because not much else does. Unfortunately for TB they were upping the ante because they were probably getting bored with their regular routine of stealing cars and drugs.

I apologize for redundancy and vague speculation in mypost, I'm chasing 2 toddlers around the house ATM and my tablet isn't liking this webpage. I'll come back with some links and quotes soon. Even with all the though I'd still be speculating, I just haven't seen any evidence to say these guys were involved in a huge ring of criminal activity but just big enough to get their thrills. All the computers seized are likely just leads to LE and might not have any evidence on them. I hope so anyway, I don't want to think of this case as bigger than we could imagine...

I don't know a lot about the computers, but I am pretty sure that LE cannot seize social media sites like Facebook or Twitter, or other sites suspects may have visited. I am pretty sure when they say that they seized an item, they mean that they actually took possession of a physical item. Computers and cell phones are physical things that can be seized, whereas a website is not. You can hold a computer in your hand, but you cannot really hold a website in your hand, (not without a computer, that is.) And my point was that the quote may have been designed to produce just this sort of baseless speculation about crime rings and B&E's and such.

Where you say that most sociopaths are career criminals, could you please show the data supporting that claim? I had always heard that many sociopaths are highly successful in the corporate world, but perhaps I heard wrong. We have seen many pictures of DM and MS looking happy, should we assume that each photo was taken while they were deriving pleasure from wronging others?


LE already cleared DM of being involved in prostitution, so if you have evidence to dispute that, please bring it forward, we would love to see it. Thanks in advance.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I don't know a lot about the computers, but I am pretty sure that LE cannot seize social media sites like Facebook or Twitter, or other sites suspects may have visited. I am pretty sure when they say that they seized an item, they mean that they actually took possession of a physical item. Computers and cell phones are physical things that can be seized, whereas a website is not. You can hold a computer in your hand, but you cannot really hold a website in your hand, (not without a computer, that is.) And my point was that the quote may have been designed to produce just this sort of baseless speculation about crime rings and B&E's and such.

No LE does not seize the 'site', LE seizes the data in the user's profile at that site, after giving the site a production order (warrant) permitting LE to do so. Absolutely, they can do this. The warrant allows LE to take physical possession of the user's data file. LE can put that information on a disk/CD/USB device, etc. and hold it in their hand...they just can't hold it in their hand without using a container for it.

<rsbm>

LE already cleared DM of being involved in prostitution, so if you have evidence to dispute that, please bring it forward, we would love to see it. Thanks in advance.

Actually I don't remember LE clearing DM of being involved in prostitution: do you have a link to back up that claim?

 

[Kamille]

How many people are on the DNC lists? 10? Add in DM, MS, LB, TB and that's 14. If they are talking computers, phones, Ipads or tablets and we assume each person has at least one of each that 42 devices already. Add in any other devices these people had access to, including any work computers, family computers, phones, tablets etc and I guess the number can get pretty high.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

How many people are on the DNC lists? 10? Add in DM, MS, LB, TB and that's 14. If they are talking computers, phones, Ipads or tablets and we assume each person has at least one of each that 42 devices already. Add in any other devices these people had access to, including any work computers, family computers, phones, tablets etc and I guess the number can get pretty high.

MOO

And you need a warrant for the smartphone's network data (text messages, cell towers pinged, call log, etc.) a warrant to wiretap the phone and a warrant to do a search of the physical smartphone itself (browser and other app data, possibly emails, etc.)

So that's three piles of paperwork for one device. You can see how the warrants/seizures would add up quickly.

 

[Kamille]

Personally I think it is MS that was involved with the drugs and weapons and I believe he has a few extra people on his DNC list that were his contacts. I don't think DM was involved with that but rather used MS as his connection to get access to drugs and weapons.

MOO

 

[Juballee]

No LE does not seize the 'site', LE seizes the data in the user's profile at that site, after giving the site a production order (warrant) permitting LE to do so. Absolutely, they can do this. The warrant allows LE to take physical possession of the user's data file. LE can put that information on a disk/CD/USB device, etc. and hold it in their hand...they just can't hold it in their hand without using a container for it.

<rsbm>



Actually I don't remember LE clearing DM of being involved in prostitution: do you have a link to back up that claim?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...had-relationship-with-bosma-accused-1.1399734

"Carbone said Babcock was known to be involved in the sex-trade business as an internet escort for several months prior to her disappearance, but he added that, as far as he knew, Millard was not involved in the sex-trade business."



Also, The quote was not that it was one of the the biggest data seizures, but one of the biggest computer seizures, I don't think that you have to be a computer expert to know that there is a difference between an actual computer and data stored on a disk or thumbdrive. So if it was actually one of the biggest data seizures (again, hard to believe in this day and age, when other busts in computer crimes mine insane amounts of data), then it was a misquote or misspoken, which is what I have been wondering all along.

Any references on what constitutes the previous largest data seizures in Ontario criminal history, then, if we can't find what constitutes the largest computer seizures?