Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

[Alethea Dice]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/





It doesn't take anywhere near three months. I said the onus of proving there was a murder is on the crown. If CN is simply the university student in the wrong place at the wrong time that Juballee suggested she was, then her bail hearing would hardly be complicated for her lawyer. If the crown has a more complex case against her, well then, yes, we start to understand why her lawyer might have chosen not to apply for bail.

Thanks, ABro. So nothing official from LE. I guess if they used it, he would have had to be in it at some point. I still think, from Kavanagh's comments, that he wasn't actually found in it though. I wonder why they would remove his body from it after using it.

Sorry for the confusion on the last part. I wasn't referring to your comment when I mentioned about the burden of proof on a Superior Court bail hearing. I just thought that might be why CN's lawyer may want to wait for full disclosure before proceeding with a bail hearing. It could very well also go the same route as DM's and MS's and just never happen.

JMO

 

[Somegirl]

Very interesting. From a walk on Google maps, it appears to be right behind the Hampton Inn (P&G Distribution Centre?).

No - it is a lot on the East side of Oak Park Road just NORTH of Powerline Road

 

[Carli]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/.

Oh, come on, ABro. Of course it's clearthat the concept of murderers chopping up innocents and burning them in a chicken incinerator provides an absolutely horrific and sickening image. But this suggestion represents very sloppy journalism, imo, particularly disappointing coming from Clairmont. "Police have said they believe?", "A source close to the investigation?" Precisely which LE official expressed this belief? When? Where? Has the press followed up with further questions about this? To whom were the questions addressed? When? And what "source close to the investigation?" What is the reason for anonymity for this source. Is the person in fear for his or her life? Why? Are we truly expected to accept that Press allegations "according to Cocker" of "informed circles" and "anonymous sources " are positive proof that a particular event took place?

I fully understand the arguments for journalist's rights to protect sources, but there are no national or global interests are held in the balance here; no whistleblower who needs the protection of anonymity.

Like Alethea Dice and others I have been unable to find any statements from LE pressers that confirm that any persons were burned in the incinerator. That's not to say they weren't. Only that this has not been confirmed it in any LE presser, so far as we can tell, so until it is, I can't fully understand why it keeps getting repeated. IMO. IMHO. Etc.

 

[hopingforjustice]

I don't post often but here it goes. Along Oak Park Rd near the 403 Highway there is a huge and somewhat secluded lot of transport trailers (just the trailers- no trucks) and containers. I reside not too far from there and happened to be driving through one morning after dropping my son in Paris and saw the helicopters and police searching the area and later found out they found TB's phone nearby. I always thought that looked like a great place for a trailer to be waiting to load up a stolen vehicle. If they were looking for a place to do that before heading to the farm, it appears to me that the lot would be a good choice and a fairly direct route from TB's house through brantford to that spot. MO.

Totally agree...I have felt all along (and posted some time ago) hoping that they not only looked for the black dodge but also a red truck and trailer in video evidence!

 

[Carli]

oh boo hoo!!

elizabeth smart, jaycee lee dugard, amanda, gina and michelle etc. all experienced captive / "caged" lives 24/7, and are not letting the horrors of their past define them. they didn't become "as mad as a hatter" and their inhumane treatment (starvation, beatings, rape, etc) were FAR worse than anything DM will experience in a solitary canadian jail cell, put there for his protection, with the blessing of his lawyer (since no bail hearing has been requested).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...lice-continue-to-search-farm/article14239837/

I don't believe Canadian society endorsed and engaged in those horrible criminal acts, did they? I've never been that comfortable with revenge as public policy, you know. And when it comes to brutality. Puh-leeze. Don't get me started! IMO. IMHO.

 

[Somegirl]

No - it is a lot on the East side of Oak Park Road just South of Powerline Road

Just googled it - just NORTH of Powerline road, on East side of Oak Park Rd

 

[hopingforjustice]

Oh, come on, ABro. Of course it's clearthat the concept of murderers chopping up innocents and burning them in a chicken incinerator provides an absolutely horrific and sickening image. But this suggestion represents very sloppy journalism, imo, particularly disappointing coming from Clairmont. "Police have said they believe?", "A source close to the investigation?" Precisely which LE official expressed this belief? When? Where? Has the press followed up with further questions about this? To whom were the questions addressed? When? And what "source close to the investigation?" What is the reason for anonymity for this source. Is the person in fear for his or her life? Why? Are we truly expected to accept that Press allegations "according to Cocker" of "informed circles" and "anonymous sources " are positive proof that a particular event took place?

I fully understand the arguments for journalist's rights to protect sources, but there are no national or global interests are held in the balance here; no whistleblower who needs the protection of anonymity.

Like Alethea Dice and others I have been unable to find any statements from LE pressers that confirm that any persons were burned in the incinerator. That's not to say they weren't. Only that this has not been confirmed it in any LE presser, so far as we can tell, so until it is, I can't fully understand why it keeps getting repeated. IMO. IMHO. Etc.

So much effort has been put into determining whether or not the incinerator was used or not. Does it really matter? It is totally JMO but whether it was used or not is immaterial. The FACT of the matter is that poor TB was found "burned beyond recognition" and WHATEVER method was used to cause this finding is beyond comprehension and repulses me to no end. Whoever could do this to another living being deserves to be punished to the full extreme of the law. IMO dousing him with gasoline and igniting him or throwing him into an open pit fire etc is no different and shouldn't play out any differently in a court.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Oh, come on, ABro. Of course it's clearthat the concept of murderers chopping up innocents and burning them in a chicken incinerator provides an absolutely horrific and sickening image. But this suggestion represents very sloppy journalism, imo, particularly disappointing coming from Clairmont. "Police have said they believe?", "A source close to the investigation?" Precisely which LE official expressed this belief? When? Where? Has the press followed up with further questions about this? To whom were the questions addressed? When? And what "source close to the investigation?" What is the reason for anonymity for this source. Is the person in fear for his or her life? Why? Are we truly expected to accept that Press allegations "according to Cocker" of "informed circles" and "anonymous sources " are positive proof that a particular event took place?

I fully understand the arguments for journalist's rights to protect sources, but there are no national or global interests are held in the balance here; no whistleblower who needs the protection of anonymity.

Like Alethea Dice and others I have been unable to find any statements from LE pressers that confirm that any persons were burned in the incinerator. That's not to say they weren't. Only that this has not been confirmed it in any LE presser, so far as we can tell, so until it is, I can't fully understand why it keeps getting repeated. IMO. IMHO. Etc.

Perhaps it's the same source who said other human remains were found, which was denied by Kavanagh, and that there were more ashes than one body, which Kavanagh also denied. Unnamed sources belong in the rumour category IMO, until confirmed by LE or the courts. If someone doesn't want their name used, there's usually a reason. I agree it very well could have been, but I will wait to see.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

So much effort has been put into determining whether or not the incinerator was used or not. Does it really matter? It is totally JMO but whether it was used or not is immaterial. The FACT of the matter is that poor TB was found "burned beyond recognition" and WHATEVER method was used to cause this finding is beyond comprehension and repulses me to no end. Whoever could do this to another living being deserves to be punished to the full extreme of the law. IMO dousing him with gasoline and igniting him or throwing him into an open pit fire etc is no different and shouldn't play out any differently in a court.

You're right, it doesn't make any difference to the court and whoever did it should never see the light of day again. It just makes a more graphic and horrifying image in the public's eye to think of someone actually being cut up and put into an incinerator, and then apparently being removed from it afterwards as well. It grabs attention and sells papers and gets comments on their websites. That image will remain in a person's mind when picked for jury duty, regardless of whether it really happened or not.

JMO

 

[MsSherlock]

So much effort has been put into determining whether or not the incinerator was used or not. Does it really matter? It is totally JMO but whether it was used or not is immaterial. The FACT of the matter is that poor TB was found "burned beyond recognition" and WHATEVER method was used to cause this finding is beyond comprehension and repulses me to no end. Whoever could do this to another living being deserves to be punished to the full extreme of the law. IMO dousing him with gasoline and igniting him or throwing him into an open pit fire etc is no different and shouldn't play out any differently in a court.

100% with you! IMHO, TB's murder was brutal and I don't care if he was in, around or even in the same field as the incinerator. Matter of fact, I'm hoping the Eliminator wasn't used because this type of indignity to a human is something best left to Stephen King novels. Yet it's no more brutal than shooting WM in the head or disposing of LB in a fashion where LE are certain she's dead, enough so that they've been able to lay 1st degree murder charges, but still don't have a body. (interesting enough LE don't seem to be looking for LB's body, which leads me to guess they have grounds to believe there's no body to find?) Fact is all 3 are dead and a common denominator by the name of DM is behind bars figuring out ways to occupy himself.

There's been so much talk on this forum about DM's "right to a fair trial" and how poor DM is being tarred and feathered for a crime he hasn't been found guilty of...yet. Hey hey for our rights! But, what about our right to live? Our rights to live a life free from the fear that ourselves or our loved ones will be murdered by a psychopath(s)? Even as I type, DM is exercising his right to hang out in solitary confinement and as Snooper mentioned earlier, he may be there because he's afraid he'll get beat up or killed in the general population? How ironic is that. Macho enough to pull the trigger on your father, tough enough to abduct and murder a young husband and father, sadistic enough to kill a lover and dispose of the body, yet not quite brave enough to go into the general population at the Barton Street detention centre. IMHO, they should put a pair of "Depends" on him and send him on in! MOO

 

[ABro]

Oh, come on, ABro. Of course it's clear that the concept of murderers chopping up innocents and burning them in a chicken incinerator provides an absolutely horrific and sickening image. But this suggestion represents very sloppy journalism, imo, particularly disappointing coming from Clairmont. "Police have said they believe?", "A source close to the investigation?" Precisely which LE official expressed this belief? When? Where? Has the press followed up with further questions about this? To whom were the questions addressed? When? And what "source close to the investigation?" What is the reason for anonymity for this source. Is the person in fear for his or her life? Why? Are we truly expected to accept that Press allegations "according to Cocker" of "informed circles" and "anonymous sources " are positive proof that a particular event took place?

I fully understand the arguments for journalist's rights to protect sources, but there are no national or global interests are held in the balance here; no whistleblower who needs the protection of anonymity.

Like Alethea Dice and others I have been unable to find any statements from LE pressers that confirm that any persons were burned in the incinerator. That's not to say they weren't. Only that this has not been confirmed it in any LE presser, so far as we can tell, so until it is, I can't fully understand why it keeps getting repeated. IMO. IMHO. Etc.

The police are no longer providing any details about the investigation on the record. Of course, reporters ask but the police don't answer.

This means you have a choice between no information and information from anonymous sources.

SC is a topnotch reporter with a proven track record and great sources. If she printed incinerator information that turned out to be false, it would be extremely damaging to her reputation not to mention devastating to the families of the victims. I assume that her story would never have seen the light of day if she and her editors didn't know it to be true. The actual wording of the story was likely designed to appease the newspaper's lawyers.

Perhaps it's the same source who said other human remains were found, which was denied by Kavanagh, and that there were more ashes than one body, which Kavanagh also denied. Unnamed sources belong in the rumour category IMO, until confirmed by LE or the courts. If someone doesn't want their name used, there's usually a reason. I agree it very well could have been, but I will wait to see.

JMO

Two points: The National Post quotes Kavanagh as saying: “The report of further bodies is totally untrue at this time,” Staff-Sgt. Kavanagh told the National Post.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...rom-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder/

Unnamed sources are becoming more and more common for a variety of reasons that I won't get into. I choose whether or not to believe an unnamed source based largely on the reporter who's using them. Sometimes there are very good reasons -- and, no, it doesn't have to be life or death -- that someone doesn't want to be quoted.

Unfortunately, horrific as it is, I think the issue of whether the incinerator was used in this crime is indeed crucial information as it speaks to both motive and planning.

 

[Carli]

"

Snipped by me: There's been so much talk on this forum about DM's "right to a fair trial" and how poor DM is being tarred and feathered for a crime he hasn't been found guilty of...yet. Hey hey for our rights! But, what about our right to live? Our rights to live a life free from the fear that ourselves or our loved ones will be murdered by a psychopath(s)? Even as I type, DM is exercising his right to hang out in solitary confinement and as Snooper mentioned earlier, he may be there because he's afraid he'll get beat up or killed in the general population? How ironic is that. Macho enough to pull the trigger on your father, tough enough to abduct and murder a young husband and father, sadistic enough to kill a lover and dispose of the body, yet not quite brave enough to go into the general population at the Barton Street detention centre. IMHO, they should put a pair of "Depends" on him and send him on in! MOO

Wow!! LOL on "DM is exercising his right to hang out in solitary confinement". Here's some pop reading on the subject that might allay your worries that he, or anyone else in isolation, must be having a jolly old time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-prisons-out-of-step-on-solitary-confinement/article10103358/"]

I presume you're aware that the United Nations has called upon all nations to ban solitary confinement, because it is understood that prolonged isolation amounts to torture. Mind you, I guess there's sufficient anger in this partidular case that many people appear to relish the idea of torturing the accused, regardless of guilt or innocence. Very worrying, IMO. Far more worrying, if you ask me, than concerns about whether I or my loved ones will be murdered by psychopaths, which we know with complete certainty, has overwhelming odds against it (unless we live in Gaza.) IMO. IMHO.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/20/solitary-confinement-psychological-effects-sarah-shourd

Oh, about those stats? Try these. Your chances of being murdered or knowing anyone who will be murdered are statistically extremely unlikely. Your chances of winning the lottery are many, many times higher. Statistically, the cause of your death or of your loved ones will be cardiovascular disease or cancer, but we can't torture our way out of those. Notice your chances of being murdered by your spouse are 50 percent higher than your chances of being killed by a stranger. So, if you're married, be afraid. And for Gawd's sake, hide the rolling pin.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2008/01/19/youre_safer_than_you_think_statistics_expert.html

 

[Carli]

Unfortunately, horrific as it is, I think the issue of whether the incinerator was used in this crime is indeed crucial information as it speaks to both motive and planning.

I could not more emphatically agree. That is precisely why I'm such a stickler on the subject.

I also agree that Cavanaugh is a good reporter - said so in the earlier post - but the business of the newspaper business is to sell newspapers. IMO. IMHO. MOO. I do not believe in the infallibility of the press in this or in any other matter. I'm still going to hold out for the courts.

 

[MsSherlock]

I could not more emphatically agree. That is precisely why I'm such a stickler on the subject.

I also agree that Cavanaugh is a good reporter - said so in the earlier post - but the business of the newspaper business is to sell newspapers. IMO. IMHO. MOO. I do not believe in the infallibility of the press in this or in any other matter. I'm still going to hold out for the courts.

Carli, I believe you mean Susan Clairmont is good reporter. On
the subject of solitary confinement, I happen to agree with you. IMHO, it's inhumane and shouldn't even be an option. Which begs me to ask, why in heavens name would DM want to subject himself to the torture of solitary confinement. ABro has reported that it's his selection- and I'm interpreting that as DM executing a right to be there. Seems like MS doesn't have a problem forgoing life the general population. IMHO, it may be as simple as DM seeing himself so much above everyone else who just happens to find themselves behind bars, but perhaps you can shed some light on any of the reasons DM may "choose" to spend 23 1/2 hours a day in solitude. MOO

 

[Juballee]

Carli, I believe you mean Susan Clairmont is good reporter. On
the subject of solitary confinement, I happen to agree with you. IMHO, it's inhumane and shouldn't even be an option. Which begs me to ask, why in heavens name would DM want to subject himself to the torture of solitary confinement. ABro has reported that it's his selection- and I'm interpreting that as DM executing a right to be there. Seems like MS doesn't have a problem forgoing life the general population. IMHO, it may be as simple as DM seeing himself so much above everyone else who just happens to find themselves behind bars, but perhaps you can shed some light on any of the reasons DM may "choose" to spend 23 1/2 hours a day in solitude. MOO

Personally, I cannot see someone requesting to remain tortured if they had a choice, unless there were serious threats against their safty and well being, which would be a reason for correctional workers to insist one remains in protective custody anyway. They would be responsible if anything were to happen to him before trial, so it's likely their choice over his.

I don't recall hearing in MSM either way whether or not DM is in solitary confinement by his choice or by the choice of the crown or corrections. I think until we get an official answer, it is meanless to speculate whether or not this makes him a coward or a tortured prisoner.

 

[lclabtech]

Personally, I cannot see someone requesting to remain tortured if they had a choice, unless there were serious threats against their safty and well being, which would be a reason for correctional workers to insist one remains in protective custody anyway. They would be responsible if anything were to happen to him before trial, so it's likely their choice over his.

I don't recall hearing in MSM either way whether or not DM is in solitary confinement by his choice or by the choice of the crown or corrections. I think until we get an official answer, it is meanless to speculate whether or not this makes him a coward or a tortured prisoner.

"He has to mentally prepare for the long road ahead," said Paradkar, adding that his client is in protective segregation in his cell for 23.5 hours per day."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...t-rush-to-judgment-in-bosma-killing-1.1331399

Can't really tell who requested what but according to DM's lawyer it's for his protection.

 

[Juballee]

"He has to mentally prepare for the long road ahead," said Paradkar, adding that his client is in protective segregation in his cell for 23.5 hours per day."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...t-rush-to-judgment-in-bosma-killing-1.1331399

Can't really tell who requested what but according to DM's lawyer it's for his protection.

Protective segregation is the Canadian term for solitary confinement. And again, it doesn't say who decided that it is for his protection.

 

[redheadedgal]

I don't believe Canadian society endorsed and engaged in those horrible criminal acts, did they? I've never been that comfortable with revenge as public policy, you know. And when it comes to brutality. Puh-leeze. Don't get me started! IMO. IMHO.

this response makes no sense to me...

the claim was DM is being mistreated and "caged" up and will go crazy ("mad as a hatter"). my point was, others have had it FAR worse and do not go crazy.

we needn't worry about DM's health, sanity, etc. while willingly locked up (no attempt was even made for bail!), was my point.

 

[redheadedgal]

Wow!! LOL on "DM is exercising his right to hang out in solitary confinement". Here's some pop reading on the subject that might allay your worries that he, or anyone else in isolation, must be having a jolly old time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...step-on-solitary-confinement/article10103358/"]

I presume you're aware that the United Nations has called upon all nations to ban solitary confinement, because it is understood that prolonged isolation amounts to torture. Mind you, I guess there's sufficient anger in this partidular case that many people appear to relish the idea of torturing the accused, regardless of guilt or innocence. Very worrying, IMO. Far more worrying, if you ask me, than concerns about whether I or my loved ones will be murdered by psychopaths, which we know with complete certainty, has overwhelming odds against it (unless we live in Gaza.) IMO. IMHO.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...onfinement-psychological-effects-sarah-shourd

Oh, about those stats? Try these. Your chances of being murdered or knowing anyone who will be murdered are statistically extremely unlikely. Your chances of winning the lottery are many, many times higher. Statistically, the cause of your death or of your loved ones will be cardiovascular disease or cancer, but we can't torture our way out of those. Notice your chances of being murdered by your spouse are 50 percent higher than your chances of being killed by a stranger. So, if you're married, be afraid. And for Gawd's sake, hide the rolling pin.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2008/01/19/youre_safer_than_you_think_statistics_expert.html

to go on and on about this issue is just nonsensical. his lawyer has not even requested bail. if conditions inside were harsh and torturous, surely bail would've been asked for and media told about poor DM's brutal treatment. pictures might even been released. have i missed news reports where the lawyer discusses this?

it's a moot point imo.

 

[Carli]

Carli, I believe you mean Susan Clairmont is good reporter. On
the subject of solitary confinement, I happen to agree with you. IMHO, it's inhumane and shouldn't even be an option. Which begs me to ask, why in heavens name would DM want to subject himself to the torture of solitary confinement. ABro has reported that it's his selection- and I'm interpreting that as DM executing a right to be there. Seems like MS doesn't have a problem forgoing life the general population. IMHO, it may be as simple as DM seeing himself so much above everyone else who just happens to find themselves behind bars, but perhaps you can shed some light on any of the reasons DM may "choose" to spend 23 1/2 hours a day in solitude. MOO

Thanks so much, MsSherlock. Yes, I absolutely DID mean Susan Clairmont. Hopefully ABro has more information about DM's alleged decision 'cause it beats me.