Timeline Discussion

[ZL27]

Does anybody have a link to the interview where Desiree debunks the myth that she and Terri were friends? Thx.

 

[citigirl]

this:

Ok--so you think after the Sheriff made the request he was told to retract the request and cut another $900,000? And the D.A. was allowed to keep his request for the case on the table?

So the sheriff simply stated he was withdrawing the request and returning $900,000 to the coffers and might be asking for the money again in October without alluding to the demand that he cut the request?

It bothers me that an elected official would be so fuzzy about this. But it does explain the quick about-face by the sheriff after he made the initial request.

 

[Curious Me]

Calliope, just using your post as a jumping off point
This near play by play description that Kaine gives of his arrival at home after a short day at work is the reason I do not believe TH's claim of driving Baby K around for 90 minutes hoping to soothe her earache. Aside from the obvious inconsistencies in that explanation to begin with (why not take her to the dr? Why rural roads? Why dump her at the gym shortly thereafter? etc.), I believe very much that Kaine would have said something about this. He would've mentioned coming in, kissing Baby K, and then something about a toddler with an ear infection (and as most of us know, there's always something, ear infections make little ones miserable). "Baby K was finally napping" or "Baby K was crying because of her earache, so I picked her up and tried to comfort her" or "I gave her another dose of baby motrin because her ear was bothering her", you know where I'm getting at. But he doesn't. He describes a quiet, relaxed scene. TH is sitting on the couch on her laptop, and the baby sounds like she's awake, near TH. After about an hour and a half (right?), Kaine emerges from his home office, puts shoes on Baby K, and they walk to the bus stop, with Terri following behind by a couple of minutes. Now, would a baby with an ear infection so bad she needed to be lulled to sleep that morning want to walk (not be carried) outside for what is a bit of a distance for her little stride? No. Probably not. Bottom line, Kaine gives good descriptions of events, IMO, good detail. I am sure he would've mentioned something about this. But no, he describes a completely normal, quiet first half of the day, complete with a mother sitting on Facebook, not tending to a sick baby; and a little girl, not napping or fussing or anything, receiving a kiss from her dad upon his arrival home and then taking a walk to meet her brother's bus after 90 minutes of what? Playing? Kaine didn't mention Baby K napping or having to wake her up or anything. She didn't sound sick, IMO.

BBM Thank You for voicing some of my own thoughts. It has been awhile since I've had babies with ear aches, but I remember they usually scream, and you want to hold them, or get them to the doctor, or be home and get them comfortable. I'm having a hard time believing the just driving around on rural roads. BUT THEN...THANKS TO YOU...I realize it would be very strange to then go to the gym to work out. It also seems odd that when your husband got home even if you weren't on chatty terms, you'd mention how little K was so distraught with her ear infection earlier.

 

[aim]

I'm sure this has already been covered, but how long a drive was it to KH's school from their house?

 

[Calliope]

Calliope, just using your post as a jumping off point
This near play by play description that Kaine gives of his arrival at home after a short day at work is the reason I do not believe TH's claim of driving Baby K around for 90 minutes hoping to soothe her earache. Aside from the obvious inconsistencies in that explanation to begin with (why not take her to the dr? Why rural roads? Why dump her at the gym shortly thereafter? etc.), I believe very much that Kaine would have said something about this. He would've mentioned coming in, kissing Baby K, and then something about a toddler with an ear infection (and as most of us know, there's always something, ear infections make little ones miserable). "Baby K was finally napping" or "Baby K was crying because of her earache, so I picked her up and tried to comfort her" or "I gave her another dose of baby motrin because her ear was bothering her", you know where I'm getting at. But he doesn't. He describes a quiet, relaxed scene. TH is sitting on the couch on her laptop, and the baby sounds like she's awake, near TH. After about an hour and a half (right?), Kaine emerges from his home office, puts shoes on Baby K, and they walk to the bus stop, with Terri following behind by a couple of minutes. Now, would a baby with an ear infection so bad she needed to be lulled to sleep that morning want to walk (not be carried) outside for what is a bit of a distance for her little stride? No. Probably not. Bottom line, Kaine gives good descriptions of events, IMO, good detail. I am sure he would've mentioned something about this. But no, he describes a completely normal, quiet first half of the day, complete with a mother sitting on Facebook, not tending to a sick baby; and a little girl, not napping or fussing or anything, receiving a kiss from her dad upon his arrival home and then taking a walk to meet her brother's bus after 90 minutes of what? Playing? Kaine didn't mention Baby K napping or having to wake her up or anything. She didn't sound sick, IMO.

That's true, she doesn't.

I know from experience that sick kids don't necessarily act sick 24/7. And as someone posted above, she is at an age where she'd be teething which could account for 'ear' pain. We really don't know what was wrong with the baby, if anything.

If all Terri has is this weak alibi for that significant chunk of time, she's in a world of hurt. JMO

 

[Calliope]

BBM Thank You for voicing some of my own thoughts. It has been awhile since I've had babies with ear aches, but I remember they usually scream, and you want to hold them, or get them to the doctor, or be home and get them comfortable. I'm having a hard time believing the just driving around on rural roads. BUT THEN...THANKS TO YOU...I realize it would be very strange to then go to the gym to work out. It also seems odd that when your husband got home even if you weren't on chatty terms, you'd mention how little K was so distraught with her ear infection earlier.

True.

Makes me wonder if their marriage at this point wasn't a complete sham, and they simply weren't communicating beyond what was absolutely necessary (and I hope for Kyron's sake it had not reached the stage where it was, "tell your father [blah blah blah]"; "well tell your mother [blah blah blah]"). And that makes me wonder about Kaine's insistence that nothing was out of the ordinary. Unless by that point in time, "ordinary" meant they'd already retreated to their own respective armed camps.

 

[Barry]

I'm still on the fence, but just barely. I think like another, far more famous redhead, TH has a lot of splaining to do.

 

[Billylee]

In the days that Kyron was first was reported missing I kept asking myself, why are they searching only a four mile radius? The perp had all day to travel with him somewhere. Now that I see Terri's time line of activity, were they convinced that early on that she had something to do with it and using the four mile radius based only on her activities and cell pings? Have they NEVER considered anyone else? Makes me wonder.

 

[Barry]

I wonder the same thing too, Billylee. IMO, you can hardly be surprised or fault them for doing that, especially given there are a finite amount of resources available as a case drags along. Sadly, it is a gambit though. A gambit that LE in other cases has lost more than once.

 

[BeanE]

Reposting for reference. I combined the info from the two alleged Terri timeline articles, to make it easier to reference for discussion purposes. Links to both articles included!

Combined info from the Two Timeline Articles

Grocery Shopping

According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it.

Driving on Rural Roads

Between 10:10 in the morning and 11:39, Terri said she drove her daughter K around on rural roads in the family’s white truck because K had an earache. She said she was trying to soothe the toddler with the motion of the vehicle.

* New info: She told investigators that she drove K around a series of rural roads for an hour, saying she was trying to calm her down because she didn't feel well.

Gym and Then Back Home

At 11:39 a.m., Terri checked in at a 24-hour Fitness in Beaverton on Waterhouse Avenue and worked out for about an hour until 12:40 p.m.

* New info: She went to the gym for about 45 minutes that morning and arrived home about 1 p.m. to post pictures from the science fair on her Facebook page.

By 1:21, Terri said she'd traveled home - a distance of nearly 11 miles - and was posting photos on Facebook she'd taken that morning of Kyron standing with his science project and of his friend, K, standing with his.

First article: http://www.katu.com/news/local/99151549.html

New article: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Horman-kyron-missing-gaps-portland-kiara-99181214.html

 

[human]

I am sure that the media has not talked to Terri. So I wonder where they got their info? From friends?

Then we don't even know if the time line is correct or who told the media the time line?

"According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it."

 

[Jo in Calif]

I am sure that the media has not talked to Terri. So I wonder where they got their info? From friends?

Then we don't even know if the time line is correct or who told the media the time line?

"According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it."

I tried bringing this up way back, didn't work.

 

[BeanE]

I am sure that the media has not talked to Terri. So I wonder where they got their info? From friends?

Then we don't even know if the time line is correct or who told the media the time line?

"According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it."

From Mr. Unnamed Source, and his cousin, Reliable Source.

 

[Billylee]

I wonder what clothes Terri was wearing when she took Kyron to school to tour the science fair? The timeline does not mention her going back home to change into any gym clothes. Was there ever a picture of posted on her facebook of Kyron AND her that morning? I never got to see those before it was gone.

 

[Etilema]

I wonder what clothes Terri was wearing when she took Kyron to school to tour the science fair? The timeline does not mention her going back home to change into any gym clothes. Was there ever a picture of posted on her facebook of Kyron AND her that morning? I never got to see those before it was gone.

Yes, that is definitely a good question. What do witnesses recall her wearing in the morning, what was she wearing on the surveillance videos, and what was she wearing when the police arrived to take the report?

See, if I went to the gym to work out, I wouldn't continue wearing those clothes for the rest of the day, for obvious reasons. Would that have been a normal practice of TH's?

 

[AvalonBlue]

In any search over rugged terrain, there are areas where SAR personnel can say with certainty that there is nothing there. Imagine a soccer field with three inch grass, for instance. All it would take is one person to walk the area once to ascertain with a high level of probability that there was no child there.

And then there are areas where SAR personnel can say they did not see anything of interest but cannot absolutely rule it out. Imagine a gully with walls that are covered with brambles and too muddy to walk or crawl down. In such an area, the searchers might space themselves at three feet apart but due to a bump or log or some feature of terrain be forced as far as eight feet apart in a few areas. SAR might rate such terrain at 95% probability of no child being there, even with the assistance of SAR dogs. Part of being certified is learning to rate one's search of an area honestly, not wishfully.

It is up to the SAR coordinator to decide what level of certainty they are willing to accept for what areas. This decision includes local conditions, number of searchers available and a number of other factors. In this case, I'd imagine that the SAR coordinator would want a very high level of certainty for the areas within half a mile to a mile of the school but be willing to accept a slightly lower certainty for areas 5 miles from the school.

If the terrain in the second scenario were more than a mile from the school and only reachable via equally rugged terrain, investing the effort to get to 100% certainty might be viewed as not being a wise use of resources, considering how much more terrain needed to be covered. Particularly in the first few days of the search, when hopes were high of finding Kyron alive.

Finding one 50 pound child in a circle of land that has a five mile diameter means covering almost 20 square miles. If the circle of land involved had a ten mile diameter, that increases the area to close to eighty square miles. In news accounts, it was unclear to me if the five miles referred to was radius or diameter.

I think a fair comparison of the difficulty would be for me to say I may have hidden a single size 11 seed bead in a stranger's house and bet you to find it. Maybe it's there, maybe it isn't. Even after you had searched thoroughly once, I think you'd probably want to go back and try again before paying up on the bet.

Or maybe you wouldn't be silly enough to accept such a bet in the first place!

With time, conditions change. I think there is little realistic hope that Kyron is alive.

Disturbing observation below:

If Kyron died on 4 June, his body may not have been putting out much scent in that first ten days. The weather that spring up until that point had been cool and rainy, which keeps ground cool, particularly vegetated or wooded ground. Cool conditions slow down decomposition.

Sometimes SAR dogs can pass right by very fresh remains because some local trick of the air currents prevents the scent from spreading.

I've seen this myself watching field hunters train. A bird gets shot in plain sight, falls, dog goes right to the correct general area and then goes nuts casting because they cannot scent the bird and their eyesight is such that the bird is not noticeable. I've actually heard dogs grunt in surprise when they literally tripped over the bird because it was not spreading scent as usual.

The weather has now warmed up and the air currents, even in wooded areas, will have changed. The sorts of air pockets where a bird can fall and not be scented are most likely to occur under cool conditions and unlikely to occur during hot, humid conditions.

After six weeks, if there is a body out there, it is now putting out a lot of scent if it is on land. That means that if the body were originally in some tiny pocket that were overlooked, it is now more obvious.

GrainneDhu, thank you for such detailed, valuable information. I especially like your example about the size 11 seed bead -- it really puts things in perspective.

With your knowledge of SAR, are there any details/info you can give us about what one learns in SAR training about how perpetrators go about disposing of bodies? For instance, I would imagine that there are factors about the perp that go into where they put the body. It seems that a perp would have to have certain physical characteristics in order to get to an area that is then difficult for SAR to get to; e.g. size, weight, fitness level, knowledge of the terrain, etc.

Obviously, these are things that forensic investigators would learn in retrospect; however, I would also imagine that the knowledge previously gained can also be used in planning searches to some degree. I would think someone needing to dispose of an adult body would have limitations that would not be present with a child's body. Also, I've read that women perps have a tendency to dispose of bodies in water?

Any information you have would be appreciated. TIA

 

[AvalonBlue]

I wonder what clothes Terri was wearing when she took Kyron to school to tour the science fair? The timeline does not mention her going back home to change into any gym clothes. Was there ever a picture of posted on her facebook of Kyron AND her that morning? I never got to see those before it was gone.

I'm hoping, Billylee, that someone has at least a partial picture of TH, or a glimpse of her in a video at the school that morning. (I've posted about this in a previous thread.)

I'm hoping that with LE supposedly in possession of all the pics/video they requested from those at the school that there is something they have that we don't know about that has a time stamp, what she was wearing, etc.

With the variety of pics/video I hope they have, I'm optimistic that this has provided a "story board" of sorts, with those important time stamps from people who, of course, had no knowledge at the time, of how telling it might be.

I also find a lot of credence in the idea posted by many, that TH may have had quite a few gym outfits that were nondescript enough to look alike, allowing her, if involved in this, to have not worried too much about changing clothes, disposing of clothes, etc.

I do hope there is video from the gym security cameras to help determine if it really was her there later that morning, and what she was wearing -- and if those clothes were still in her possession later. I'm pretty certain LE would have checked all that.

 

[Jo in Calif]

From Mr. Unnamed Source, and his cousin, Reliable Source.

So basically, almost, every thing in this thread falls in this category?

 

[BeanE]

So basically, almost, every thing in this thread falls in this category?

Yes. The title of the thread even says so.

 

[butterfly1978]

If the teacher thought he had left with Terri to go to a Dr. apponitment, why would she tell the other teacher calm down he probably went to the bathroom or for water?
Where these the remarks made by the teacher or the kid? If its the kid I am just wondering if he may be confused wanting to help his friend and thinking if he changes what he says he might get it right and find Kyron. Poor thing, it will be horrible when these kids go back to school, if he has not been found and if he has what impact it will have on them if they find out Terri is responsible, IF SHE IS... At thier young age they may fear thier own parents after this.