Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[cujenn81]

Then factor in that Titanic is a grave site for over 1,000 people.

As a side note, the German government makes official complaints to countries that permit diving on war graves when divers are known to be exploring sunken German ships (usually U boats).

The deadliest passenger loss in history was the Wilhelm Gustloff (9,000 or more Germans, mostly civilians, lost their lives while attempting to flee the very unforgiving Soviets in the closing months of WWII).

The wreck / grave is close to shore and is monitored by the Polish coast guard. Not only is diving on the wreck illegal, but so is even sending robots down for photos etc.

My grandaddy was on a US Navy Oiler when it was struck by several torpedos that were fired from a German submarine during WWII. I think they were 700-800 miles off the coast of Newfoundland when the tanker was struck. Fortunately, no one died and only one or two men were injured. I’ve never really thought about it before now… but had the ship sunk with my granddaddy on board, I certainly wouldn’t want tourists going down there to look at it. OTOH, I really can’t say why that is. Because I don’t think I’d feel the same way about a battlefield on land had he died there. Maybe it’s because most of the men who die on battlefields are eventually removed and can be properly laid to rest?

Yes, people visit/tour war cemeteries all the time. But we always do so with respect. We are careful about where we step. We take measures not to disturb the graves themselves. I guess maybe it feels impossible to do that when the graves are in the sea? IDK.

 

[Cool Cats]

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

Just like Captain Smith (Titanic) dismissed iceberg warnings.

He instead listened to the voices encouraging him to make a very fast crossing on the Titanic's maiden (first) voyage.

This was his last voyage before retirement and he wanted to go out with credit for a speedy voyage. Especially because:

In April 1912, the RMS Titanic was not only the largest passenger ship in the world, but it was the largest ship ever built.

Now both captains RIP with their ship wreckage side by side. Chilling.

 

[ch_13]

OceanGate CEO once said Titan sub's hull was made with carbon fiber from Boeing that was past its airplane shelf life, would-be passenger says

Arnie Weissmann said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him he sourced the Titan's carbon fiber, which was too old "for use in airplanes," from Boeing.

www.insider.com

A writer who said he was set to travel on the doomed Titan submersible said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him that for the vessel's hull, the company used cut-price Boeing carbon fiber that was past its airplane shelf life.

 

[PrairieWind]

Is there any advantage or disadvantage to either side in potential legal claims having to be made in the Bahamas?

It is generally a benefit to a potential defendant in a case such as this. A Bahamian court's ability to order discovery from a US corporation would be more limited or at least take much longer.

 

[fred&edna]

I’m sorry to offend you with my post. Since a question was posed that I replied to I thought you were inviting conversation. I see now it was declarative non question.


In my opinion Reiss is a goof. Education, success and age is not a barrier to being a goof.

The interview covered his thoughts and views on the waiver so no need to bet we know for a fact he read a waiver.

all imo

He's a comedy writer. I'm not offended by your post... I just strongly disagree that he was a foolish target, that's all.

Being a goof as a comedy writer has served him well.

ETA: He took this excursion and told the public his thoughts during this horrible event. So, I think his opinion is valid.

 

[JennieM]

Separate safety investigation to be launched in US​

An investigation into the Titan sub incident is set to be launched by the

US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and US Coast Guard, the NTSB has told the BBC.

The US Coast Guard is yet to independently confirm this.

The NTSB says roles, responsibilities and the scope of the probe are still being determined.

For now, this appears to be separate to the investigation announced by the Transportation Safety Board of Canada a few hours ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[Snail-Overlord]

I’m still shocked by the fact that there is no oversight on submarines in international waters. This clearly does seem like a loophole in the law, and not something that was intended in any way to be exploited.

Seriously, can anyone with the means do whatever they want with a submarine as long as it’s deployed in international waters? Like, could someone also theoretically deploy a sub in international waters and dump a bunch of toxic chemicals in the ocean with no one being the wiser? Not that I think someone’s doing that, but still.

 

[JennieM]

49 min ago

For decades, US has operated network of underwater listening devices used to detect Titan sub implosion​

From CNN's Oren Liebermann

The Navy system that picked up a sound resembling an implosion on Sunday is part of an array of underwater listening devices that the US has had in place for decades. Primarily designed to track the movement of enemy submarines, the system has also helped in the searches and investigative efforts of incidents at sea, some very similar to the implosion suffered by the Titan submersible.

Initially called the Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) when it was first created in the late 1940s and early 1950s, the array of sensors detects different sounds and acoustic signatures, which can travel great distances underwater. The system was renamed the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS) when the Navy added mobile and deployable sensors to its collection capabilities.

“The Integrated Undersea Surveillance System mission is multi-faceted, encompassing not only the operations of detection, localization and tracking of submarines and the collection of acoustic and hydrographic information, but also the maintenance of processing and communications equipment necessary to carry out the operational mission,” according to the Navy.

Because sound travels so well underwater, the sensors can be used to triangulate the position of an enemy submarine or an underwater noise picked up by the array.

Though the system itself is not classified, according to a Navy official, its operation and collection capabilities are secret.
In 1968, the Navy used the system to pinpoint the location of a missing Soviet submarine, K-129, in the North Pacific. The US noticed increased Soviet naval activity and concluded they may be searching for a submarine. In reviewing the data collected by the system, the US picked up on the acoustic signature of an implosion and were able to pinpoint the location of the noise, far away from the Soviet search efforts.

In the mid-1970s, the US would attempt to raise the ballistic missile submarine from the ocean floor using a cover story that involved eccentric billionaire Howard Hughes and a project to harvest minerals off the sea floor.

The mission was partially successful, and it began with the detection of the implosion by the same type of array that picked up on the implosion of the Titan submersible.

The listening array also helped in the search for two missing US nuclear submarines in the 1960s, the USS Thresher and USS Scorpion.

June 23, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub crew killed after 'catastrophic implosion'

Investigators continue to scour the ocean floor for debris as they try to establish the timeline and circumstances of the Titan's fatal final voyage.

edition.cnn.com

 

[JennieM]

50 min ago

Marine certification company says it declined request to certify doomed Titan vessel​

From CNN's Gabe Cohen

A company that certifies marine vessels says it “declined a request" from OceanGate Expeditions to certify Titan, the submersible that imploded near the site of the Titanic wreckage, killing all five people on board.

The interaction came months after OceanGate had defended a decision not to certify Titan in a blog post.

Lloyd’s Register, a marine certification company, did not say why it declined to work with OceanGate on what is typically a lengthy, expensive process to certify a vessel.

The two companies came together in 2019 for Titan’s first depth dive. At the time, OceanGate put out a press release saying the dive “was validated by a representative from Lloyd’s Register.” While it invoked the name of the certification agency, OceanGate did not say the submersible had been certified, just that the dive itself had been verified.

OceanGate was touting having taken Titan to a depth of 3,760 meters (about 12,300 feet) near the Great Abaco Island in the Bahamas, according to the release. Titan, it said, was the only vehicle that could both hold five people and dive to that depth.

In a statement to CNN, Lloyd’s Register did not dispute any of the details of the dive but said that that initial meeting did not lead to an agreement to go into the certification process.

“Lloyd’s Register declined a request from Ocean Gate to provide classification following a preliminary observation of Ocean Gate testing a Titan submersible in 2019,” the company said in a statement. “Lloyd’s Register did not go on to class the installation.”

In 2018, industry experts urged OceanGate to certify Titan to ensure its safety, saying failure to do so could be catastrophic. Will Kohnen, who wrote a letter and spoke with OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush about his concerns, told CNN, “There are 10 submarines in the world that can go 12,000 feet and deeper. All of them are certified except the OceanGate submersible.”

The 2019 dive came two months after OceanGate put up a blog post defending its decision not to certify Titan, arguing it could take years, stifle innovation and “by itself, classing is not sufficient to ensure safety.” The timing shows that the company may have still been considering certification even after defending its decision not to certify.

CNN has reached out to OceanGate for comment.

June 23, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub crew killed after 'catastrophic implosion'

Investigators continue to scour the ocean floor for debris as they try to establish the timeline and circumstances of the Titan's fatal final voyage.

edition.cnn.com

 

[crhedBngr]

My grandaddy was on a US Navy Oiler when it was struck by several torpedos that were fired from a German submarine during WWII. I think they were 700-800 miles off the coast of Newfoundland when the tanker was struck. Fortunately, no one died and only one or two men were injured. I’ve never really thought about it before now… but had the ship sunk with my granddaddy on board, I certainly wouldn’t want tourists going down there to look at it. OTOH, I really can’t say why that is. Because I don’t think I’d feel the same way about a battlefield on land had he died there. Maybe it’s because most of the men who die on battlefields are eventually removed and can be properly laid to rest?

Yes, people visit/tour war cemeteries all the time. But we always do so with respect. We are careful about where we step. We take measures not to disturb the graves themselves. I guess maybe it feels impossible to do that when the graves are in the sea? IDK.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

And, I agree, these areas are graveyards and should be treated with respect.

One shipwreck that I read about is the Edmund Fitzgerald. Several expeditions were launched; some with divers and some with submarines. The families were very unhappy with these expeditions. Apparently, the Canadian government put restrictions on visiting the Fitzgerald.

An amendment to the Ontario Heritage Act in 2006 severely limited access to the remains of the ship, which was immortalized in Gordon Lightfoot's hit song The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald.

But that's not the case for the resting site of the RMS Titanic, where researchers, explorers and tourists (for a hefty price) have made numerous trips — raising some controversy over whether such visits to an area also deemed a gravesite are proper.

Here's an interesting article regarding both the Edmund Fitzgerald and the Titanic.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/titanic-edmund-fitzgerald-1.6882861

JMVHO.

 

[iamshadow21]

OceanGate CEO once said Titan sub's hull was made with carbon fiber from Boeing that was past its airplane shelf life, would-be passenger says

Arnie Weissmann said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him he sourced the Titan's carbon fiber, which was too old "for use in airplanes," from Boeing.

www.insider.com

A writer who said he was set to travel on the doomed Titan submersible said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him that for the vessel's hull, the company used cut-price Boeing carbon fiber that was past its airplane shelf life.

OH HECK NO.

So we are really in the Dollar Tree school of design, here.

I assumed they'd at least had the carbon fibre made for purpose.

Where the heck was all the money going? Because it really doesn't look like it went into the Titan. The controller is one thing, I kind of get that, though I don't think its a great option in a sealed tube that's going to build up moisture like a teenager's car, but the hull...

MOO

 

[JennieM]

A recap of the major developments​

• Canadian and US officials have indicated there will be investigations into the Titan deaths. Other government agencies are may join in, but it is unclear at this stage which agency will lead the investigation
• Tributes are being paid to the five men who died aboard the Titan, which officials said on Thursday was crushed in a "catastrophic implosion"
• The reason for the catastrophe is not yet known, but experts say investigators will focus on the materials used to make the sub's outer walls
• It has emerged that several diving leading experts had warned OceanGate executives the sub was unsafe, but the company's CEO dismissed those warnings
• James Cameron, who directed the 1997 film Titanic and has made 33 visits to the shipwreck, has accused OceanGate of cutting corners
• Experts are piecing together the evidence in an attempt to discover what could have caused the sub to break apart some 3,500 meters under the ocean

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[iamshadow21]

50 min ago

Marine certification company says it declined request to certify doomed Titan vessel​

From CNN's Gabe Cohen

A company that certifies marine vessels says it “declined a request" from OceanGate Expeditions to certify Titan, the submersible that imploded near the site of the Titanic wreckage, killing all five people on board.

The interaction came months after OceanGate had defended a decision not to certify Titan in a blog post.

Lloyd’s Register, a marine certification company, did not say why it declined to work with OceanGate on what is typically a lengthy, expensive process to certify a vessel.

The two companies came together in 2019 for Titan’s first depth dive. At the time, OceanGate put out a press release saying the dive “was validated by a representative from Lloyd’s Register.” While it invoked the name of the certification agency, OceanGate did not say the submersible had been certified, just that the dive itself had been verified.

OceanGate was touting having taken Titan to a depth of 3,760 meters (about 12,300 feet) near the Great Abaco Island in the Bahamas, according to the release. Titan, it said, was the only vehicle that could both hold five people and dive to that depth.

In a statement to CNN, Lloyd’s Register did not dispute any of the details of the dive but said that that initial meeting did not lead to an agreement to go into the certification process.



In 2018, industry experts urged OceanGate to certify Titan to ensure its safety, saying failure to do so could be catastrophic. Will Kohnen, who wrote a letter and spoke with OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush about his concerns, told CNN, “There are 10 submarines in the world that can go 12,000 feet and deeper. All of them are certified except the OceanGate submersible.”

The 2019 dive came two months after OceanGate put up a blog post defending its decision not to certify Titan, arguing it could take years, stifle innovation and “by itself, classing is not sufficient to ensure safety.” The timing shows that the company may have still been considering certification even after defending its decision not to certify.

CNN has reached out to OceanGate for comment.

June 23, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub crew killed after 'catastrophic implosion'

Investigators continue to scour the ocean floor for debris as they try to establish the timeline and circumstances of the Titan's fatal final voyage.

edition.cnn.com

And so they misled people about certification, too.

I'm pretty sure we're going to see surviving OceanGate employees facing charges of fraud and deceptive business practices, folks. And those waivers the passengers signed aren't going to help them with that.

MOO

 

[heavenly2012]

In the article in cbs.com(years before titan went missing ocean gate was warned of Catastrophic safety issues)it truly posted some unbelievable corner cutting. Here is a screenshot of one issue the employee filed a lawsuit over. Sorry for my bad link.Maybe someone else can post it. It is eye opening.

 

[BeachSky]

It was modified and they had backups. There were a lot of very questionable things with Titan but I don't think the controller is the main one seeing as they do use these controllers in the military. But saying that, I'm clueless about these things, so it's just my opinion.

I agree though, this situation was completely avoidable and unnecessary..

I read there were 18 bolts to lock/seal them in but - they usually only fastened 17 bolts because 1 bolt at the top was hard to reach…what the? JMO

CBS Journalist Recounts His Experience on Missing ‘Titan’ Sub: 'It Is The Darkest You Can Possibly Imagine'

David Pogue tells PEOPLE he was 'petrified' before he rode on the vessel last summer for a 'CBS Sunday Morning' feature

people.com

ETA: They use rusty construction pipes as ballast,” Pogue, 60, tells PEOPLE. “I remember that you are sealed into the sub from the outside. There are 18 bolts around the hatch, and the crew bolts you in from the outside. And I remember it was odd that they put in only 17 of the 18 bolts. The 18th one is way up high, and they don't bother with that one. They say it makes no difference. But little things like that.”

The people lost in the missing Titan submersible are dead-bolted in with at least 17 bolts and have no way out unless they're found

"The crew closes the hatch, from the outside, with 17 bolts. There's no other way out," the CBS journalist David Pogue reported in November.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[ilovewings]

The Titan was a ticking time bomb and nobody knew it. very sad.

 

[iamshadow21]

I read there were 18 bolts to lock/seal them in but - they usually only fastened 17 bolts because 1 bolt at the top was hard to reach…what the? JMO

The people lost in the missing Titan submersible are dead-bolted in with at least 17 bolts and have no way out unless they're found

"The crew closes the hatch, from the outside, with 17 bolts. There's no other way out," the CBS journalist David Pogue reported in November.

finance.yahoo.com

Of course, no biggie. *facepalm*

MOO

 

[crhedBngr]

Per the New York Times:

“The paying passengers would not be aware, and would not be informed, of this experimental design,” lawyers for Mr. Lochridge wrote in a court filing.


The meeting led OceanGate to fire Mr. Lochridge, according to court documents filed by both sides. OceanGate has said in court records that he was not an engineer, that he refused to accept information from the company’s engineering team and that acoustic monitoring of the hull’s strength was better than the kind of testing that Mr. Lochridge felt was necessary.

OceanGate Was Warned of Potential for ‘Catastrophic’ Problems With Titanic Mission

 

[LinasK]

//www.yahoo.com/entertainment/expedition-unknown-host-canceled-oceangate-215056058.html

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

OceanGate CEO once said Titan sub's hull was made with carbon fiber from Boeing that was past its airplane shelf life, would-be passenger says

Arnie Weissmann said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him he sourced the Titan's carbon fiber, which was too old "for use in airplanes," from Boeing.

www.insider.com

A writer who said he was set to travel on the doomed Titan submersible said OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told him that for the vessel's hull, the company used cut-price Boeing carbon fiber that was past its airplane shelf life.

That is... not good.

In my experience, many materials are perfectly fine past their use-by date, but the reason for the use-by date is one of liability and guaranteed performance. The manufacturer isn't responsible for material failure if you use it past its shelf life and it doesn't perform as expected. Their response to any complaints would simply be: Past its shelf life, your problem.

If this is accurate, it means OceanGate saved a few bucks by making the most integral part of the whole system out of cut-price materials which were possibly no longer within their original specifications.

So, so stupid. Ugh. That really is indefensible.