Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[Blondiexoxo]

Just caught up I was a little behind…

The waiver is terrifying. IMO it has been written with the knowledge that Titan was very dangerous. The wording and phrases used IMO sound akin to some sort of partnership, like a wedding where you promise to love honour and obey Oceangate no matter what happens.

I am amazed that people would be willing to sign this. Personally, after reading that I’d want some time to process, research and decide if this was something I really wanted to risk.

I could imagine the waiver being presented to passengers shortly before they were due to leave so that it needed to be signed quickly. Being presented with this to sign when you’re already there, excited to go on this adventure you’ve waited for, traveled for, prepared for and are moments away from going on may IMO cause some people to sign it so not to delay the experience any longer without being fully aware of what they are signing away.

I’d be interested to hear from people who’ve been on Titan to find out when they are asked to sign the waiver, is it days before they are due to embark? Hours? Minutes? Many of those who’ve been on there appear to be wealthy and the sort of people who are likely IMO to ask to consult their attorney before signing anything, it baffles me that these were signed so willingly, except of course if they were signed moments before leaving. When you’ve paid, travelled, got yourself hyped up, and listened to the CEO insist on how safe it is.

Do you find yourself in a situation where you feel like refusing to sign would ruin the trip for others? Such as young Suleman Dawood wanting to please his father for Father’s Day, having had the trip cancelled previously, finally getting there and reading all those risks, yet seeing everyone else sign it like it’s just procedure. Has anyone ever asked questions about what’s written in the waiver, how were they answered?

All MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

'Keenly aware of the risks': OceanGate co-founder defends dead CEO's approach to safety as probe launched

Mr Rush defended his business and took offence to the concerns being raised.

"We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often — I take this as a serious personal insult."

Red bolding by me.

Personal. He took concerns raised about the craft's construction, safety, and lack of testing as a PERSONAL insult. That tells me that for all his experience and qualifications, he wasn't in the headspace of a scientist where Titan was concerned. And that is a very, very flawed mindset to be in when making decisions that affect people's safety. He wasn't open to criticism because he saw every criticism as a personal attack.

Dude. It wasn't about YOU.

MOO

 

[Hoosgirl]

There are more than one corporate entities involved. Oceangate Inc is a for profit company with private investors. Oceangate Foundation is a separate organization that is the nonprofit.

It was a way for Rush to pursue grants and donations for the research side through the nonprofit entity, while pursuing a profit from selling seats on the submersible trips through the for profit company.

 

[ch_13]

Stockton Rush has joined Thomas Andrews, Jr. on a rather notorious list.

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List of inventors killed by their own invention - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jade]

He's a comedy writer. I'm not offended by your post... I just strongly disagree that he was a foolish target, that's all.

Being a goof as a comedy writer has served him well.

ETA: He took this excursion and told the public his thoughts during this horrible event. So, I think his opinion is valid.

The word “fool” is a quote from MR in the video interview not my word.

Imo, he was naive and trusting of SR. Anyone would think that if SR is piloting it must be safe surely he wouldn’t endanger himself.

MR said he would go down again if the guys survived so as I said just the sort of tourist SR was recruiting- a return customer who will tell his friends too.

Of course his opinion is valid. I just feel MR laughing, smiling while we all thought they were trapped and the interviewers were so solemn was disrespectful despite my interest in what he had to say.

MR may be ready to die entertaining himself by writing jokes but they’re talking about a 19 year old with his whole life ahead of him.

Of interest is another Simpsons predicted it written by Mike Reiss:

‘Simpsons’ episode that ‘predicted’ Titanic sub was written by future passenger

Mike Reiss — who traveled in the Titan submersible in 2022 — oversaw the team of “Simpsons” writers that penned the “Crimson Tide”-inspired episode.

nypost.com

all imo

 

[CrimeDawg123]

'Keenly aware of the risks': OceanGate co-founder defends dead CEO's approach to safety as probe launched

Mr Rush defended his business and took offence to the concerns being raised.

"We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often — I take this as a serious personal insult."

Red bolding by me.

Personal. He took concerns raised about the craft's construction, safety, and lack of testing as a PERSONAL insult. That tells me that for all his experience and qualifications, he wasn't in the headspace of a scientist where Titan was concerned. And that is a very, very flawed mindset to be in when making decisions that affect people's safety. He wasn't open to criticism because he saw every criticism as a personal attack.

Dude. It wasn't about YOU.

MOO

Huge red flag.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Stockton Rush has joined Thomas Andrews, Jr. on a rather notorious list.

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List of inventors killed by their own invention - Wikipedia

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Though technically true that both were "killed by their own invention," it seems like an unfair comparison for people to make. One of Titanic's sister ships, Olympic, carried passengers safely for about 25 years; the other, Britannic, sank because a huge hole was blown in the side of her by a mine during WWI. There was nothing wrong with the design of the Olympic Class ships, Titanic included. Certainly nothing Thomas Andrews was responsible for.

The difference is that Titanic sank because her Captain and crew didn't operate her safely, whilst Titan imploded because it was never safe to operate.

 

[ch_13]

Though technically true that both were "killed by their own invention," it seems like an unfair comparison for people to make. One of Titanic's sister ships, Olympic, carried passengers safely for about 25 years; the other, Britannic, sank because a huge hole was blown in the side of her by a mine during WWI. There was nothing wrong with the design of the Olympic Class ships, Titanic included. Certainly nothing Thomas Andrews was responsible for.

The difference is that Titanic sank because her Captain and crew didn't operate her safely, whilst Titan imploded because it was never safe to operate.

Yes, and in fact Andrews' original design for the Titanic had a double-hull, higher bulkheads and additional lifeboats. If any of those had been implemented, there would have been far fewer casualties.

I think the wikipedia list is really just for the irony of dying due to one's own creation, and not necessarily because the inventor was at fault.

 

[flowershop]

Robert Ballard explains that it took days for the ROV to arrive after it was determined where to look. He goes on to say that he is familiar with wrecks like these and explored the wreck of the imploded Scorpion submarine in 1968 that was east of the Titanic wreckage.

EDIT: I looked up the Scorpion submarine and it was found near Portugal. The article had me thinking it was close to the Titanic wreckage for some reason. I recommend looking up the Scorpion submarine implosion for a frame of reference for investigations of this type of disaster.

Robert Ballard, who discovered Titanic wreck, said authorities 'immediately knew' where to look when they heard the Titan's implosion, but it took days for an ROV to get there

On Thursday, the Coast Guard announced that the missing Titanic submersible likely imploded and that all passengers had died.

www.insider.com

 

[Sundog]

Here is some background information on those who lost their lives on the Titan sub. There is a fair amount of repitition in the first two links. No info provided for the father and son who were also together on the Titan.

I am sure there will be formal obituaries published on each of the individuals who lost their lives. They were all incredible explorers and adventurers.

Sports

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Sports news, analysis, rumors, statistics, predictions and roster moves around the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and more.

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Sports news, analysis, rumors, statistics, predictions and roster moves around the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and more.

heavy.com

Sports

Sports news, analysis, rumors, statistics, predictions and roster moves around the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and more.

heavy.com

 

[BUF]

There are more than one corporate entities involved. Oceangate Inc is a for profit company with private investors. Oceangate Foundation is a separate organization that is the nonprofit.

It was a way for Rush to pursue grants and donations for the research side through the nonprofit entity, while pursuing a profit from selling seats on the submersible trips through the for profit company.

Stockton Rush co-founded OceanGate in 2009. The other co-founder, Guillermo Söhnlein, moved on to other pursuits after four years at the company. As of 2017, Pitchbook estimated OceanGate’s valuation at $60 million. During a funding round in 2020, OceanGate raised $18.1 million from 22 investors. That was at a time when OceanGate was gearing up for the start of Titan’s trips.

OceanGate also received about $450,000 in pandemic-related federal PPP loans in 2020 that were forgiven, according to ProPublica.

It’s not clear who will lead the closely held company in the wake of Stockton Rush’s death. OceanGate’s workforce is in the range of 40 to 60 employees, according to LinkedIn. Rush’s widow, Wendy Rush, is listed as the company’s communications director. (For what it’s worth, Wendy Rush’s ancestors include a couple who died along with more than 1,500 others in the 1912 sinking of the Titanic. The couple’s story was fictionalized for the movie “Titanic.”)

The company still owns two subs — Cyclops 1 and Antipodes — but Titan was the big attraction, because it was the only OceanGate vessel capable of going deeper than 500 meters (1,640 feet). Before this week’s tragedy, OceanGate was offering trips to the Titanic and to the Azores in 2024 at a list price of $250,000 per seat. What happens to the money paid for future trips? Add that to the list of not-yet-answerable questions.

https://www.geekwire.com/2023/now-what-oceangate-questions/

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Here's why readers are against 'foolhardy' Titanic tourism

Deep sea tourist trips have become increasingly popular among the wealthy, but as the industry grows, regulations have not kept pace.

www.boston.com

What the Titanic submersible saga and the Greek migrant shipwreck say about our reactions to tragedy

The saga of a lost submersible that had gone into the depths of the ocean to see the Titanic wreckage rippled across the national and global conversation

www.wokv.com

There have been more than 30 major incidents involving submersibles since 2000, but the Titan is only the second known in history to implode.

On 15 November 2017, an Argentine navy sub, known as ARA San Juan, mysteriously disappeared in the South Atlantic. International navies, including the UK and US, quickly joined forces for an extensive search and rescue mission but it was abandoned two weeks later, on November 30.

However, it wasn't until a year later that authorities announced the vessel had been found 2,975ft below sea level, off the Valdes Peninsula, by the specialist American survey company Ocean Infinity, Sky News reported at the time.

The sub was also surrounded by a field of debris.

What happens next after Titanic sub disaster implosion

The OceanGate sub was destroyed by a 'catastrophic implosion' on the way to the Titanic wreckage, here's what happens next.

www.ladbible.com

 

[fred&edna]

Just caught up I was a little behind…

The waiver is terrifying. IMO it has been written with the knowledge that Titan was very dangerous. The wording and phrases used IMO sound akin to some sort of partnership, like a wedding where you promise to love honour and obey Oceangate no matter what happens.

I am amazed that people would be willing to sign this. Personally, after reading that I’d want some time to process, research and decide if this was something I really wanted to risk.

I could imagine the waiver being presented to passengers shortly before they were due to leave so that it needed to be signed quickly. Being presented with this to sign when you’re already there, excited to go on this adventure you’ve waited for, traveled for, prepared for and are moments away from going on may IMO cause some people to sign it so not to delay the experience any longer without being fully aware of what they are signing away.

I’d be interested to hear from people who’ve been on Titan to find out when they are asked to sign the waiver, is it days before they are due to embark? Hours? Minutes? Many of those who’ve been on there appear to be wealthy and the sort of people who are likely IMO to ask to consult their attorney before signing anything, it baffles me that these were signed so willingly, except of course if they were signed moments before leaving. When you’ve paid, travelled, got yourself hyped up, and listened to the CEO insist on how safe it is.

Do you find yourself in a situation where you feel like refusing to sign would ruin the trip for others? Such as young Suleman Dawood wanting to please his father for Father’s Day, having had the trip cancelled previously, finally getting there and reading all those risks, yet seeing everyone else sign it like it’s just procedure. Has anyone ever asked questions about what’s written in the waiver, how were they answered?

All MOO

Since the waiver involved information about the surface vessels (which would include the mothership) and states that OG Ltd has been available to answer my questions, etc... I would "assume" the passengers were definitely on dry land when the waiver was presented. But, it would be good to know at what point they were actually presented with the document.

One look at the vessel and its' game-controller guide, as well as reading the waiver would have me running far, far, away... Even if Rush was the best shrewd manipulator and I knew he would be with me... I wouldn't do it. But, that's me. How badly did each person "WANT" to make this trip? We've heard one didn't want to disappoint his father... not that he was pressured by Rush. jmo

 

[BeachSky]

There are more than one corporate entities involved. Oceangate Inc is a for profit company with private investors. Oceangate Foundation is a separate organization that is the nonprofit.

It was a way for Rush to pursue grants and donations for the research side through the nonprofit entity, while pursuing a profit from selling seats on the submersible trips through the for profit company.

Great post. And..it’s that 250 that dropped to 150 for this last trip. I do wonder if all will be revealed.

Maker of the lost Titanic sub once told a reporter that 'at some point, safety is just pure waste'

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told CBS journalist David Pogue that his Titanic tourist trips could operate "just as safely while breaking the rules."

www.insider.com

He said there was a "limit" to safety, telling Pogue: "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question."

JMO but hard sell is a major red flag. As others have compared it to E. Holmes.

 

[BUF]

As more and more information is coming out from those who previously went on the Titan, this is something I had not heard. Seriously, the only light in the tube on descent and ascent was from a fluorescent glow stick? (Isn’t that like what you give your kids trick or treating on Halloween?)…

During the 2.5-hour descent and ascent, the lights were turned off to conserve energy, he said, with the only illumination coming from a fluorescent glow stick.

Titanic sub updates: Boeing denies it helped build sub, search for human remains may be moot

Recovery efforts were underway Friday after officials determined a "catastrophic implosion" killed the five people in a missing Titanic submersible.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Here's why readers are against 'foolhardy' Titanic tourism

Deep sea tourist trips have become increasingly popular among the wealthy, but as the industry grows, regulations have not kept pace.

www.boston.com

What the Titanic submersible saga and the Greek migrant shipwreck say about our reactions to tragedy

The saga of a lost submersible that had gone into the depths of the ocean to see the Titanic wreckage rippled across the national and global conversation

www.wokv.com

There have been more than 30 major incidents involving submersibles since 2000, but the Titan is only the second known in history to implode.

On 15 November 2017, an Argentine navy sub, known as ARA San Juan, mysteriously disappeared in the South Atlantic. International navies, including the UK and US, quickly joined forces for an extensive search and rescue mission but it was abandoned two weeks later, on November 30.

However, it wasn't until a year later that authorities announced the vessel had been found 2,975ft below sea level, off the Valdes Peninsula, by the specialist American survey company Ocean Infinity, Sky News reported at the time.

The sub was also surrounded by a field of debris.

What happens next after Titanic sub disaster implosion

The OceanGate sub was destroyed by a 'catastrophic implosion' on the way to the Titanic wreckage, here's what happens next.

www.ladbible.com

Any submarine/submersible is likely to implode if it goes too far beyond its rated depth. ARA San Juan was tested to 300m (985ft) but found at 907m (2975ft), so it was almost inevitable that it would implode regardless of what initially caused it to lose control.

To my knowledge, Titan is still the only submersible/submarine to implode at the depth it was designed to operate at.

 

[Snail-Overlord]

Depends on jurisdiction. In California. No. No way. First thing I was taught when working for a plaintiff's firm. "You cannot sign away a right." No liability waiver EVER allows people to kill you/let you die due to undisclosed risks OR negligence. That's why doctors and hospitals have huge insurance policies (and usually settle without admitting guilt - which is often best for everyone, just has to be negotiated).

In this case, anyone with standing could sue. But who would they sue? The potential regulatory agencies that failed? There's no company to sue. OceanGate is gone (and was a non-profit to boot). Governments and so on could be sued (and would likely settle without admitting liability, etc, etc).

IMO.

So basically, it seems that because the CEO is also dead, there may really be no one to hold legally liable? That’s honestly really a shame, because Rush was only one player in this. He definitely didn’t pull this off on his own.

Is it possible that other individuals could still be sued? It seems to me like the dissolution of OceanGate wouldn’t protect former employees from being held responsible. But I realize that’s more tricky than it sounds.

From what I can skim, certain crimes (e.g. murder, human trafficking) are still prosecutable by any authority, even when committed in international waters. But this does seem like a grey area that may not qualify for criminal charges. It’s horrific what happened, but unfortunately not clear what laws were broken, if any.

It also seems that it matters where the ship is registered in regards to what laws apply to it. In this case, would something like that apply to the mother ship? From what I understand, even though the company was “based” in the Bahamas, the ship wasn’t.

I would honestly hope that someone can be sued. Even settling out of court, IMO is better than nothing at all for the families of the deceased.

I would hope that at least one outcome of this is that the law is changed to make it harder for unregulated submarines to just do whatever they want when deployed in high seas. Something like this just shouldn’t be able happen.

MOO

 

[BeachSky]

Any submarine/submersible is likely to implode if it goes too far beyond its rated depth. ARA San Juan was tested to 300m (985ft) but found at 907m (2975ft), so it was almost inevitable that it would implode regardless of what initially caused it to lose control.

To my knowledge, Titan is still the only submersible/submarine to implode at the depth it was designed to operate at.

A list of lost submersibles known:
1968 Alvin: recovered and returned to service
1973 Johnson Sea Link: crew suffocated but sub returned to service
1973 Pisces III: sub repaired and returned to surface
1995 Delta: entangled on Lusitania and lost propeller. Returned to service
2006 AS-28: entangled in nets and rescued
2023 Titan: Lost

JMO

 

[Sundog]

PICTURED: Titan mothership returns to shore in Newfoundland

The support ship that launched the doomed Titan submersible has returned to port in Canada, following the sub's catastrophic implosion that killed all five men aboard during a dive to the Titanic.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Polar Prince, the Titan mothership returns to St. John's port today, with crew aboard looking "shell-shocked." The investigators board the ship to begin their investigation and there are photos of the investigators briefing the crew on the process that will take place.

Some of the other ships involved in the search also at St. John's port with lots of people gathered to watch the events taking place and the ships returning.

 

[Arkay]

Stockton Rush has joined Thomas Andrews, Jr. on a rather notorious list.

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List of inventors killed by their own invention - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think Rush is much more like this guy, Franz Reichelt.

He was so convinced that his invention of a parachute coat to help people who had to bail out of those new airplane things, that against all advice and warnings, he jumped off the Eiffel Tower to prove his device worked.

Instead of the parachute opening, it folded immediately and his death was within two seconds.


The key difference is he didn't take others with him, but the mindset is the same, IMO.

There is video of his jump that I won’t post here.

The Sad Story Of The Inventor Who Died Testing His Parachute At The Eiffel Tower

On February 4, 1912, after saying a cheerful "À bientôt", Franz Reichelt jumped from his 187-foot-high stage. But the parachute folded in around him and he quickly plummeted to the ground.

allthatsinteresting.com