Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[Gardenista]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475060200739595

 

[Gardenista]

I figured the aunt was full of it.

Teenager on sub took Rubik's Cube to break record, mother tells BBC

Christine Dawood told the BBC she lost hope of her son being found alive when the 96-hour mark passed.

www.bbc.com

 

[NeverPersonal]

MrBeast says he declined to join submersible trip: ‘Kind of scary that I could have been on it’​

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/entertainment/mrbeast-titan-submersible/index.html?utm_source=fbCNN&utm_content=2023-06-25T21%3A00%3A12&utm_term=link&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR17cRDn9wt0xXLCGtkWLh6rmddLzt6M1-64ZK2xBctlfnGYr3IMqYUiuXs

(I have no idea who he is btw)

Mr. Beast makes an insane amount of money on YouTube. He has a veeery wide audience and does all sorts of things in his videos (daredevil stuff, cool stuff, rare stuff), and he does a lot of kind things for others. I could see the sub being on his list.

Side note: One of the reasons I (and many others) like him so much is that one of his best friends who has been on the channel since day 1, Chris, is trans who goes by any pronouns, and this channel refuses to politicize literally anything! It's perfect. The vibe is: That's Chris, that's how Chris is, we love Chris - the end! Just as it should be. Beast never has a bad word to say about anyone, either. Only time I ever saw him angry was one time, and he was standing up for Chris.

Very happy Mr. Beast is alive and well. We need more like him in the world.

 

[NeverPersonal]

I’d be interested to hear from a lawyer or someone with legal knowledge about whether the waiver that oceangate had passengers sign would hold up in court? The wording seems to absolve pretty much anyone and everyone remotely connected to Oceangate of all reaponsibility right down to ‘clients, partners and subcontractors’. It seems whoever created this waiver was very careful to list every possible person that could be held responsible if anything went wrong.

The part that I feel would not hold up in court would be how everyone was told (and would also just assume) that safety checks were up to par on every single last thing. Apparently, while on board Polar Prince, multiple meetings are held per day where safety things are gone over, like the 7 different ways to make the sub float in case of emergency. I feel the waiver would be void if the carbon hull was not fixed and up to 100% standard. I'm trying to find the article but in 2020 he came out and said directly in an interview that at that present time the sub should only have gone down to 11k ft tops due to issues with the hull... he never updated if it was fixed or not.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/23/us/oceangate-submersible-titanic-safety-invs/index.html

 

[Luna20]

Did the presser mention anything new?
I haven’t read today’s post yet. Sorry if this has been posted.

Just saw on NBC the CG saying they don’t charge for rescue operations for humans.

Another spokesperson said that there may be criminal and civil charges.

 

[LinasK]

I’d be interested to hear from a lawyer or someone with legal knowledge about whether the waiver that oceangate had passengers sign would hold up in court? The wording seems to absolve pretty much anyone and everyone remotely connected to Oceangate of all reaponsibility right down to ‘clients, partners and subcontractors’. It seems whoever created this waiver was very careful to list every possible person that could be held responsible if anything went wrong.

However I don’t think the part about negligence should hold up IMO if Oceangate were negligent then the responsibility should fall on them regardless of signed waivers.
It’s kind of like signing a consent form for surgery and then dying on the operating table after your surgeon used unsterile equipment, administered anaesthetic that they knew was out of date and experimental drugs that had never been used on unconscious patients before. IMO that would constitute negligence, and no amount of consent forms, waivers, danger warnings should absolve someone of blame when they’ve acted negligently with prior knowledge of the risks they were taking. If the surgeon were to die the suddenly on the same day then IMO that doesn’t mean that the responsibility dies with them. The blame simply moved up the chain to whoever was in the know, whoever helped surgeon act with such negligence. The hospital for having him, his colleagues for not disclosing to patients that they were stepping into a possible death trap and so on and so forth.. JMO

In this situation IMO regardless of the risks that the passengers waived when they signed that form, from what we know so far they were not fully informed exactly what they were undertaking.
Now does that responsibility fall on them for not asking the questions that the waiver claims oceangate would be there to answer should they have any? Or does the responsibility fall on Oceangate for not disclosing that their viewing port couldn’t handle the pressure at even half the depth of where they planned to go? Or that SR had actually been warned by what we now know to be multiple people that he was putting lives at serious risk?

I don’t think atleast the Dawoods for instance fully understood that from what we are hearing, compared to other submersibles, passengers getting into Titan for that journey down to the titanic appear to have been entering themselves into a disturbing game of Russian roulette.

Does the law surrounding waivers require that those signing have to be in a position to give ‘informed consent’, do they legally have to be fully informed of the dangers or does the fact the waiver mentions ‘other unanticipated, inherent risks’ account for anything those signing don’t know about.

As I’ve said before, it baffles me that no one seems to have asked to consult their attorney for advice prior to signing this waiver. IMO many people with significant wealth tend to seek legal advice before signing any documents. Never mind ones that mention death 8/9 times over 3 pages…

MOO

I read an article today that said that the waivers wouldn't hold up if gross negligence on the part of Oceangate can be proved. Sounds like the cost-cutting on materials would prove that.

 

[Boxer]

it seems that way and I can't understand knowing that and still selling tickets

Yes. Irresponsible even past negligence.


Honestly, I see lack of intelligence and due diligence issue.
Greed masquerading as being innovative and free of unwarranted "regulations."

And never addressing "What is the life of the carbon titanium hull material after X pressure events?"

Preventing a team engineer from succeeding with his argument in their management meetings that they needed to ND test is just bizarre, Coupled with no date to retire after X pressure events and guaranteed to fail.

 

[JDG]

A lot of information in here about the history of the company … development, building of submersibles, challenges, etc…

OceanGate - Wikiwand

OceanGate Inc. is an American privately owned company based in Everett, Washington, that provided crewed submersibles for tourism, industry, research, and explo...

www.wikiwand.com

Not a huge fan of Wiki as anyone can log on and edit any/all excerpts.

The information could be wayyy off, truthwise/non factual.

 

[Luna20]

I read an article today that said that the waivers wouldn't hold up if gross negligence on the part of Oceangate can be proved. Sounds like the cost-cutting on materials would prove that.

I think so too. There are conversations and text that prove safety concerns were raised. They will be called to testify and there will be others who haven’t come forward yet.

 

[BUF]

Not a huge fan of Wiki as anyone can log on and edit any/all excerpts.

The information could be wayyy off, truthwise/non factual.

True, but sometimes really no different than some people that crawl out from all over wanting to give an interview.

Unfortunately, some journalism is not what it used to be.

 

[LinasK]

So apparently he chose to take off from Canada, rather than the US because Canada didn't have the foresight to regulate it's waters: How Titan Sub Escaped High-Risk Tourism Regulations, Was Allowed To Operate

 

[Charlot123]

Five people have just lost their lives and to start talking about insurance, all the rescue efforts and the cost can seem pretty heartless — but the thing is, at the end of the day, there are costs," said Arun Upneja, dean of Boston University's School of Hospitality Administration and a researcher on tourism.

"There are many people who are going to say, 'Why should the society spend money on the rescue effort if (these people) are wealthy enough to be able to ... engage in these risky activities?'"

That question is gaining attention as very wealthy travelers in search of singular adventures spend big to scale peaks, sail across oceans and blast off for space.

"We cannot attribute a monetary value to Search and Rescue cases, as the Coast Guard does not associate cost with saving a life," the agency said.

While the Coast Guard's cost for the mission is likely to run into the millions of dollars, it is generally prohibited by federal law from collecting reimbursement related to any search or rescue service, said Stephen Koerting, a U.S. attorney in Maine who specializes in maritime law.

But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.

"This is one of the most difficult questions to attempt to find an answer for," said Pete Sepp, president of the National Taxpayers Union, noting scrutiny of government-funded rescues dating back to British billionaire Richard Branson's hot air balloon exploits in the 1990s.

When wealthy adventurers take huge risks, who should foot bill for rescue attempts?

In recent days, the massive hunt for a submersible vehicle lost during a north Atlantic descent to explore the wreckage of the Titanic has refocused attention on the conundrum: who should pay for the sweeping search.

www.cbsnews.com

Well, what if we look at it from another angle?

If 5000 people a year are trying to submerge then maybe rescue efforts could help gather important approaches in saving their lives. If that many.

But, heck, I live in a seismic area, where anything can happen. We just had a huge earthquake in Turkey and Syria. The whole floor of the Pacific Ocean is one huge ring of fire. We may need efforts because it can hit anywhere, us, Australia, NZ, Japan, French Polynesia, whatnot. We do need an international force and a crew that can be easily deployed anywhere…no? We need sonars, radars, ships. We need knowledge and logistics because it will hit again.

How many requests came to help Turkey and Syria? They lost children, cats, dogs, adults. It was a tragedy. Did you see any that would not be from Red Cross or Catholic Charities?

Did we see any massive rescue efforts that I would 100% support? We’d gain knowledge that eventually would help us.

Now thinking of US Atlantic Coast. Now. There are fires on the Canadian part of it. NYC inhabitants were posting what happened in NY. I thought about how it felt for Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or other provinces, the sources of horrific air in NYC. Red Cross was asking for help.

Was that discussed as broadly as helping these five? Helping putting fires down gathers knowledge that would help millions.

I would have never thought of the money it would take to help Canada with the fires. If my country said, we need that many millions ISD to help them, I’d say, go for it.

Here…if we are thinking implosion and talking faulty materials, and they are wealthy. Let their families decide if they need to foot the bill.

The information gathered in the process of helping these five might help save other five.
Very little knowledge to get.

 

[LinasK]

This kid was naive. I think Rush invited him along for the publicity: YouTuber Shares Footage from His Canceled 'Titan' Mission with Stockton Rush and Paul-Henri Nargeolet Ahead of Sub's Implosion

 

[LinasK]

Previous Passengers Recall Ill-Fated Titan: 'I 100% Knew This Was Going To Happen'

Talk to someone who went on previous trips on the Titan submersible and they’re likely to mention a technology glitch.

www.huffpost.com

 

[justtrish]

This kid was naive. I think Rush invited him along for the publicity: YouTuber Shares Footage from His Canceled 'Titan' Mission with Stockton Rush and Paul-Henri Nargeolet Ahead of Sub's Implosion

I am part way through the video and it's sad and very informative about what the process was like. Hearing all those previous scheduled trips were cancelled and then this one went on and tragedy happened. Just sad.

 

[Warwick1991]

{snipped by me for focus}

1. An employee of OceanGate was a whistleblower who got fired and SUED for trying to warn the company, the CEO, and the public, that the Titan was absolutely unsafe and should not be used period let alone to go over 12,000 ft under the sea level. OceanGate advertised it could go about 13k feet under sea level when it was having trouble remaining functional at 11k. It had no right to be taking people 12.5k under sea level. "That employee, David Lochridge, was fired by OceanGate after airing his complaints to government regulators and OceanGate's management, with the latter then suing him for breach of contract."
Lochridge claimed he believed the company could "subject passengers to potential extreme danger in an experimental submersible," according to the legal filing.

2. In 2018, a professional trade group warned that OceanGate's experimental approach to the design of the Titan could lead to potentially "catastrophic" outcomes, according to a letter from the group obtained by CBS News. Stockton Rush refused to acknowledge this letter or heed its gentle but firm warning and instead took it as a "personal insult", as he admittedly did with every safety concern for the vessel.

3. OceanGate had said that its engineers worked with NASA, Boeing, and the University of Washington as well as Boeing to create the Titan to be "nearly indestructible" (a quote by Stockton, of course).
NASA has now come forward and said it had provided only remote consultation on the project and it did not give any approvals for the build. Boeing said it was "not a partner on the Titan and did not design or build it". The University of Washington also denied involvement in making the ship. These companies helped on initial designs for a much less capable predecessor to the Titan, Cyclops 1. They had much, much less to do with the Titan.

4. The Titan was neither insured or certified. If you care about people's safety in any way, wouldn't those things be important to you?

5. Stockton Rush said that at a certain point, safety stands in the way of innovation. He viewed rules as stifling and unnecessary, and when asked in interviews about customers potentially dying he even laughed a few times. I personally am of the firm belief he had main character syndrome BIG TIME and didn't think anything bad could potentially ever happen to him. The world revolved around Stockton

6. Mr. Rush admitted in an earlier conversation that he had broken rules with the materials used to build the Titan's hull. A clip emerged where Mr Rush told Mexican actor Alan Estrada about the sub’s seven-inch thick acrylic window - the only way to gaze out onto the wreck of the Titanic.

7. Mr Rush adds in the video: "I’ve broken some rules to make this.“I think I broke them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon and firmer and titanium, there’s a rule you don’t do that - well I did."

8. Multiple people have come forward saying he rushed this due to investors pushing for the final product after about 3 years of stagnance, and raised the prices as well. Link below.

I could go on, but I'm in the hospital and exhausted. He is every last bit to blame for this. He was pushy, condescending, and holier-than-thou about scientific aspects he didn't know nearly as much about as he would like to have people believe he did. This cockiness resulted in the loss of 4 lives. In my personal opinion, he has blood on his hands. But if there's any justice to be served, it'll have to be in the next life if one exists.

I find it a little difficult to have empathy for a privileged rich man who was self-focused, aspired constantly to have more power and wealth, and refused to listen to anyone with good sense because he wanted to be the pioneer of deep sea tourism regardless of any corners he'd have to cut.

More sources:

Experts say the Titan sub's unconventional design may have destined it for disaster

The deadly implosion of the Titan submersible raises questions about whether the vessel exploring the Titanic wreckage was destined for its own disaster because of its unconventional design and its creator’s refusal to submit to safety checks that are standard in the industry.

www.pbs.org

Sub's carbon-fiber composite hull was the 'critical failure,' James Cameron says

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who was among the five crew members killed on the submersible, had previously defended the decision to manufacture the Titan with the material.

6abc.com

Years before Titanic sub went missing, OceanGate was warned about "catastrophic" safety issues

Experts inside and outside the company had flagged problems including uncertainty Titan could reach its intended depth.

www.cbsnews.com

Missing sub CEO sued for fraud in Florida after canceling several expeditions for safety concerns

The Hagles allege they paid Rush nearly a half million dollars, only to have their expedition aboard the Titan canceled several times due to safety concerns and equipment failure.

www.kiro7.com

Owner of missing Titanic sub admitted biggest fear was getting stuck underwater

OceanGate CEO and founder Stockton Rush is one of five people on the lost Titan submersible that was diving to the Titanic.

www.ladbible.com

MSN

With all of these issues - the whistleblower, misrepresentation, warnings by other professionals, skirting rules for passenger submersibles, inappropriate materials and engineering judgements, lack of cyclic/NDT hull testing, and financial pressure - I can't help but speculate whether Rush deliberately undertook a suicidal voyage. He was increasingly facing issues that would be the end of his dream, and perhaps he decided on a terribly selfish way to end it all.

 

[Erutan]

With all of these issues - the whistleblower, misrepresentation, warnings by other professionals, skirting rules for passenger submersibles, inappropriate materials and engineering judgements, lack of cyclic/NDT hull testing, and financial pressure - I can't help but speculate whether Rush deliberately undertook a suicidal voyage. He was increasingly facing issues that would be the end of his dream, and perhaps he decided on a terribly selfish way to end it all.

Oh my goodness.
I'd like to hope not !
It seems like Mr. Rush was aware of the mounting issues, though.
The entire endeveaor was irresponsible at best.

That bit from the link you quoted re. the fraud allegations are troubling.
More problems than just the safety issues !
Red flags abounded and it appears were ignored or concealed.
Very disheartening.
Imo.

 

[LinasK]

With all of these issues - the whistleblower, misrepresentation, warnings by other professionals, skirting rules for passenger submersibles, inappropriate materials and engineering judgements, lack of cyclic/NDT hull testing, and financial pressure - I can't help but speculate whether Rush deliberately undertook a suicidal voyage. He was increasingly facing issues that would be the end of his dream, and perhaps he decided on a terribly selfish way to end it all.

Yeah, this isn't how innovation happens. This was extremely irresponsibility. The more articles that I read about the incident, it was an accident waiting to happen. Now I really do believe that it was Hubris on Rush's part, as well as cost-cutting. He had no business taking any passengers with him. Calling them "crew members" doesn't make them so, and I really don't believe that the other men realized the amount of danger they faced. He was all into the rah-rah surrounding the voyages- the patches and signing flags than safety.

 

[Gardenista]

Previous Passengers Recall Ill-Fated Titan: 'I 100% Knew This Was Going To Happen'

Talk to someone who went on previous trips on the Titan submersible and they’re likely to mention a technology glitch.

www.huffpost.com

Sorry, probably another unpopular post lol.

He's another one who "100% knew this was going to happen" and didn't notify anyone or do anything. It seems like every person in this industry is gross.

I can tell you one thing for sure, if I knew that it was 100% going to happen, there is no way I'm giving an interview, especially one patting myself on the back.

 

[LinasK]

Sorry, probably another unpopular post lol.

He's another one who "100% knew this was going to happen" and didn't notify anyone or do anything. It seems like every person in this industry is gross.

I can tell you one thing for sure, if I knew that it was 100% going to happen, there is no way I'm giving an interview, especially one patting myself on the back.

Rush was warned by many people, some wrote him letters.