Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[minor4th]

Why were the first set of sounds "obviously not the cricket bat"? The doctor testified he heard two sets of sounds and that they both sounded the same to him.

There were indeed two sets of sounds. As of now, we only have the word of OP as to which set of sounds came first.

Give me a scenario where the first sounds were the cricket bat and the second sounds were the gunshots

 

[aa9511]

AFTER that, he heard a man calling 'Help, help, help.'

:scared::scared::scared:

Please make it stop, make it stop!

But he clearly knew this was a man. So why would he confuse the earlier screams (if they were a man's) with a woman's? He said woman's scream earlier.

SO he heard "help, help, help" AFTER all the sounds.

That would be the "emotionless" help, helps that Burger described, if we believe her.

So Oscar is emotionless-ly calling out "help, help, help" in a monotone voice after he shot Reeva.

Is that right?

:scared::scared:

 

[Trooper]

He's going to argue that none of the screams are reasonably identifiable to anyone. That even if there were screams simultaneous to the shots, OP could not have identified them as Reeva's because of their altered state.

OP hasn't testified yet as to any screams he heard at all. Certainly , Oscar has made no mention in any official capacity that he heard Reeva scream. Not a whisper.

His bail hearing testimony was the he yelled at the intruder, yelled at Reeva to ring the police, then yelled for help after he batters the door down. .So far as we know, Oscar heard nothing from anyone, not even the mysterious intruder. Only his own voice.

So I am not referring to what Oscar can identify or not. I am referring to what the witnesses so far presented have testified to. Womans voice, Womans voice, Man AND Womans voice at the same time.. all screaming.

 

[Cherwell]

Yes, but he heard those screams AFTER the gunshots, and Reeva could not have been screaming after the gunshots. He's interpreting what he heard, but his interpretation cannot be reconciled with the evidence.

Indeed. Perhaps the gunshots were the second lot of bangs, that would explain it, yes?

 

[minor4th]

Indeed. Perhaps the gunshots were the second lot of bangs, that would explain it, yes?

How can that be?

 

[aa9511]

This is so damning for OP. The witness saw someone moving in the bathroom and the light was on.

So Oscar didn't say he turned the light on after he fired the shots?

 

[Cherwell]

Give me a scenario where the first sounds were the cricket bat and the second sounds were the gunshots

That would be RS locking herself in the loo, OP trying to break the door down with the bat to get at her, then totally losing it and using the gun.

 

[aa9511]

He thought it might be family tragedy parents shooting kids...

Got dressed, drove to security, then OP's house.

Parents shooting kids?

 

[shane13]

Re: The SA judicial system. I am still having difficulty with the Defense Attorney being able to question a witness based on "facts" that he, the defense attorney, has made up or interpreted in his own unique way. I am also amazed at the use of information that has not been properly introduced as evidence. Such as when questioning the doctor he stated "I've spoken to three medical experts and they each said that based on the head injury, she would not have been able to scream after receiving that injury. Do you agree with this?" It just seems like the Defense Attorney could make up whatever he wants to. Would he be able to say "I've talked to three sound experts and they all said nobody could hear anything more than 20 meters away from the bathroom"?

If there is anyone from South Africa who could explain the rules of evidence/rules of questioning in a criminal matter, I think we Americans would appreciate it greatly.
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Re: The screams

I am with those who feel that if even one person heard one female scream, he is guilty. Because that means he knew she was in that toilet area. And there are now four witnesses who have testified they heard a woman's screams.

So the defense has to say that ALL the screams heard by everybody were OP sounding like a woman? Give me a break!

Also, I think perhaps the bathroom window WAS open and that's one of the reasons why the screams could be heard that night. But not the only one.
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Re: How sound carries

Thanks to another poster mentioning "wave superpositioning" I went and did some reading on this phenomenon. It is pretty technical for me, but what I got out of it is that temperature, humidity, wind, elevation, and topography all factor in to what happens to a sound wave once it is generated. Oh, and also the pitch or frequency of the source of the sound.

So really, the chances of any "recreation" of how far a sound will carry being accurate would be dependent on being able to recreate the exact ground temperature, air temperature, humidity, wind speed, etc. etc.

It is highly, highly variable. But it does explain the ability to hear sounds from a far distance at certain times under certain conditions. Perhaps this was just one of those nights that sound was carrying quite well. And I am glad it was.

But anyone trying to say it was impossible for these witnesses to have heard what they heard is just wrong.
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The two cell phones in the bathroom:

It was Valentine's Day. She bought him a present. He did not buy her a present? They ate at home as opposed to going out for a dinner. He was on the phone with his buddies for several hours earlier in the evening. He was watching . NOT the typical behaviors of a couple who were "deeply in love" three months into their relationship, according to OP.

I do not think she was asleep prior to going into the toilet. Perhaps she took her own phone and HIS cell phone into the bathroom with her. So she could check out what was on his phone. He was up and around the bedroom moving fans, adjusting draperies and blinds. Did he notice his cell phone was missing, then go into the bathroom and confront her through the closed toilet door about his missing cellphone?

She would lock the door. He would beat on the door and scream at her, demanding she open the door. She would refuse to open the door. He would threaten to beat the door down. He would go and get the cricket bat, perhaps stopping to put on his prostheses, returning to the bathroom and striking the door with the bat. He may have already gotten the gun also or would have had to go back to the bedroom once again to get it.

In terms of escalating frustration and violence the screaming first, then the cricket bat battering door, then shooting at door makes sense.

I would like to see an in-court demo of a man with highly developed upper arm strength striking the same type of door with the same type of a cricket bat to see what level of noise it makes.

Well that was me, of coure, writing abiout wave superpositioning.

And as I noted what happens re gunshots or other sound waves is dependent on many parameters.


And thus, results can readily be influenced by them.

This was one of the reasons some of us lamblasted the laughable [non-]recreation in the risible TV show cited here just a while ago.

Obviously <modsnip> may want to go with the nonsense on that show. But the heavy rain during that "recreation" rendered it a joke, and for numerous other reasons. [If that's the one, not gonna rewatch.]

As I have stated for a year, I hope this trial has the Pros. bringing a phsyicist.

And a couple of hours ago, I wrote that it appears to me that both sides versions are not correct.

Neither side has mentioned echoes and these may be involved in all or most of the witnesses so far.

The witnesses so far have been highly credible. IMO what Roux has been offering is desperate and nonsense. And what Nel has said today gives me pause too about the state's case. But he did say that he will bring experts who will explain the discrepancies re # of shots.

Roux will also bring his experts and results of tests which will try to "prove' that witnesses could not have heard shots, etc. Curiously one or more witnesses may have already disproved Roux' tests! Such is the quality of their testimony!

OP in his new sworn statement, vehemently denies the argument prior to the shooting. He does not deny the shooting of the person in the loo. So obviously his DT has to deny that there was an argument before, as the one witness said there was loud arguing for the hour before-- leading right into the shooting.

The last witness (Dr. Stipp) stating that he heard both the male and female voices at the same time-- "intermngling"-- destroys just about everything Roux was trying for. Because the simultaneity of the voices then directly gives full credit that the listener (Dr. Stipp) would be certain of each one separatey!

Some attorneys given the above, and given the definitive testimony given already, and given my post 1099 on the physics and physiology of gunshots and resultant wounds might be close to saying, 'case closed next." Of course Nel has 100 more witnesses.

But my conclusion is if Nel says all shots were fired at 3;17, I am on the verge of saying that may not be the case, but I await what his experts will say. Roux so far in his attempts to say Oscar screams like a woman have already been proven to be desperation.

Furthermore my knowledge of this matter includes that there are people who know what his screams sound like (before the shooting occurred). None of them ever said his screams sound like a woman's. So if DT is claiming that Pros may well have their own witnesses who will testify that Oscar does not sound like a woman when he screams. And this seems to already have been disproven by the "intermingling' as already noted.

For the record, if OP really is innocent of PM charge, no one would be happier than me so to speak. But all evidence so far points to the opposite.

 

[minor4th]

So Oscar didn't say he turned the light on after he fired the shots?

Yes, he did.

 

[Schuby]

Oscar is pretty talented... not only can he scream like a terrified woman and at the same time a pitiful man, but he can wield a cricket bat like Jaque Kallis.

The other thing that was so informative was,, the call goes out to Stander, the security bloke at 3.19 am. .......

Dr Stipp comes over, ( very carefully, I would think, due to hearing a man and a woman screaming in terror and fury and gunshots) does what he can for this young woman lying dead in the hallway.. he quickly and expertly , because he is an expert in this field, establishes she is dead.. its now about 3.45 3.50am... with nothing more he can do, he returns to his home, knowing his wife would be frightfully worried about him.

Then, LO AND BEHOLD.... he gets a phone call at 4.17 AM.. the ambulance wasn't there when he left, nor the police, just the security guard and his wife, and the call is from the security guard. . at 4.17am.. telling Dr Stipp that OSCARS lawyer will be ringing him quite soon.

when did Oscar ring his lawyer ? pretty quickly, ey?

I think it's been established that ambulance service in SA is not what we are accustomed to here. Upthread a poster from SA pointed put that people don't call for ambulances in emergencies there because the wait is too long, they just go to the hospital. As for police, that I don't know. And as for his lawyer, all rich people have lawyers on call.

 

[minor4th]

That would be RS locking herself in the loo, OP trying to break the door down with the bat to get at her, then totally losing it and using the gun.

But the cricket bat successfully broke the door through, so if he used the cricket bat first to try to get at her ...he was successful. Why would he need to then go get a gun and shoot her? That really makes no sense, and even the state is not putting that forth as a possibility.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It's not a bombshell that Nell saw a person with the lights on after the first set of shots. It completely corroborates Oscar's version that he put on his prosthetics and turned on the lights after the shots.

Nel is the attorney. Not possible for him to have seen the lights on.

 

[Schuby]

OP hasn't testified yet as to any screams he heard at all. Certainly , Oscar has made no mention in any official capacity that he heard Reeva scream. Not a whisper.

His bail hearing testimony was the he yelled at the intruder, yelled at Reeva to ring the police, then yelled for help after he batters the door down. .So far as we know, Oscar heard nothing from anyone, not even the mysterious intruder. Only his own voice.

So I am not referring to what Oscar can identify or not. I am referring to what the witnesses so far presented have testified to. Womans voice, Womans voice, Man AND Womans voice at the same time.. all screaming.

The answer is the same.

 

[Trooper]

He's going to argue that none of the screams are reasonably identifiable to anyone. That even if there were screams simultaneous to the shots, OP could not have identified them as Reeva's because of their altered state.

the other thing is.. Oscar hasn't stated he heard ANY screaming at all. None. no mention of screaming heard by OSCAR.

throughout this whole event, the only voice , in Oscars story is his own. No one else makes one single sound.. No other human voice interrupts the dark morning EXCEPT Oscars, and his voice is the one of command.. Get out, to the intruder, Ring the police to a non responding Reeva, Help Help Help to the night sky. Only Oscars voice , according to Oscar , was the one thing operating that night.. No . One. Elses. And his voice, apparently ran the gamut from terrified, bloodcurdling, petrified, pitiful wailing and also with the timbre of both a man and a womans voice.

All within the space seconds and minutes... Charl Johnson said he was alking SECONDS while this all took place.. ditto Dr Stipp.

 

[minor4th]

<snipped>For the record, if OP really is innocent of PM charge, no one would be happier than me so to speak. But all evidence so far points to the opposite.

Clearly there is more than one interpretation of the evidence because the way I see it, the only way to reconcile the witnesses' testimony is in a way that favors OP's version.

There is still a lot of trial left, so conclusions at this point are premature.

 

[aa9511]

whole doing this examination, he notices Oscar going upstairs... he at first thinks that Oscar is going up there to off himself. a few seconds later, he comes down again.. make of that what you will

He still doesn't know it's Oscar Pistorius..

OMG OMG!

THERE IS NOT REASON FOR HIM TO GO UPSTAIRS DURING THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

GUILTYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

btw what does "off himself" mean?

 

[minor4th]

Nel is the attorney. Not possible for him to have seen the lights on.

Excuse me - it's not a bombshell that Shipp saw the lights on and a person walking. It comports with Oscar's statement that after the shooting he put on his prosthetics and turned the light on

 

[Lyra500]

Yes, but he heard those screams AFTER the gunshots, and Reeva could not have been screaming after the gunshots. He's interpreting what he heard, but his interpretation cannot be reconciled with the evidence.

He was clear that all of the bangs he heard sounded like gunshots. They all sounded the same. It is <modsnip>OPs team who keep insisting the second set of sounds must be the cricket bat because that supports OPs story. That does not mean it is a proven fact.

 

[Schuby]

the other thing is.. Oscar hasn't stated he heard ANY screaming at all. None. no mention of screaming heard by OSCAR.

throughout this whole event, the only voice , in Oscars story is his own. No one else makes one single sound.. No other human voice interrupts the dark morning EXCEPT Oscars, and his voice is the one of command.. Get out, to the intruder, Ring the police to a non responding Reeva, Help Help Help to the night sky. Only Oscars voice , according to Oscar , was the one thing operating that night.. No . One. Elses. And his voice, apparently ran the gamut from terrified, bloodcurdling, petrified, pitiful wailing and also with the timbre of both a man and a womans voice.

All within the space seconds and minutes... Charl Johnson said he was alking SECONDS while this all took place.. ditto Dr Stipp.

Yes, that's right, seconds. So we have several ear witnesses with discrepant versions of what they heard for mere seconds.