Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Val1]

I'm a bit concerned about the ear-witness testimony, whereby shots/bangs and terrible screams heard. When we're discussing what a normal person would do, I would have to go and find out what was happening. Yet, the couple just went back to sleep and went to work the next day. If it was that bad, is it reasonable that you would just go back to sleep?

We need to bear in mind that it can't be entirely convincing to argue that OP shouldn't be overly concerned about security because it's a safe contained patrolled estate, and then to argue that people wouldn't have gone from their house to check it out because it's a dangerous environment.

They lived in a different secured estate and both of them called their security to notify them that they had heard screams and shots, they couldn't exactly just run over there, to which their security basically said oh well, not our concern..... As for whether they eventually were able to contact 911 type services or OP's own security about it, I can't verify off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure they tried.

 

[Viper]

Yes I I know the watch case positioned does lend itself to be contaminated by his passing with Reeva in arms but would there not be a lot more at bedroom doorway whilst he fiddled to unlock it to get out? As Oscar has failed to tell us when exactly he unlocked the bedroom door to go downstairs.
The fact the cover case was off iPhone indicates that is was removed as they usually snap on tight. Why?

To get the SIM card out and put it in with one if the watches, just slide it I between the back of a watch and the watch cushion it is mounted on.

All of this sounds rather fantastic, so does Aimee wanting to get OP a jogging suit and a watch to wear to jail. IMO OP could care less about requiring a watch to wear, and it really is suspicious: bloody watch box. iPhone with protective case that didn't protect but instead fell off, and it fell off on top if the phone no less! And Aimee want to get OP a watch from the crime scene.

The SIM card store texts, the complete message, not the whole history but recents. I'm not sure that texts are stored anywhere else on an iPhone.

 

[Val1]

It's very probable. It's quite interesting how the barometer of opinion has moved regarding certain aspects since the very beginning of the trial. Initially some of us were suggesting that there may have been a police conspiracy to frame OP, and finding reasons as to why the police may have intentionally altered the crime scene. At this stage, everything seems to have swung towards the definite presumption that if anything has been moved, it's been preplanned by OP. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.

I don't think he pre-planned it, other than when he deliberately got his gun and went after her then killed her, more so that between him, his defense team and possibly his friends, associates and family that all showed up within an hour or so helped him assemble a somewhat plausible story to explain it during the five days or so before he submitted his account of events.

 

[Lyra500]

If Christo Menelaou will testify, he says he was woken at 03.08 and heard what he believed was the sound of three thunder claps. (I think this would have beeen cricket bat) because if the thunder claps were the shots then it would mean the shots (the first being the one that woke him) were fired at 03.08 and not at 3.17am as everyone keeps stating. So it had to be bat. This guy lives next door facing bathroom window!

Yes. I have seen someone trying to argue that Menelaou heard the gunshots and everyone else was wrong and heard the cricket bat. I wonder whether this is what the defence will try to argue.

A number of things make me wary of this interpretation:

• At least one of the witnesses who heard what they thought was gunfire later (around 3:17) had military experience and was very credible (Dr Stipp)
• The people who heard what they thought were shots around 3:17 all heard at least three and in some cases four shots together with a woman's screams. The expert witness in court suggested that the door was only hit twice with the bat, so this would not tally.
• This individual is a very good friend of OP and i would be somewhat cautious about his testimony, particularly if the DT start to use it to try and discredit what the other ear witnesses testified.

 

[katydid23]

The one thing that really confuses me here is WHY didn't Reeva use her phone to call for help?

She was either hiding from the intruders or she was afraid of OP. So either way, why didn't she call someone for help while locked inside the toilet?

 

[Gavel Rash]

The switch was showing blood on it. i thought is was on wall next to chair between bedroom and passage to bathroom. but i may be mistaken as words are blurry on shot. I have a screen shot but unable to work how to post it?

 

[minor4th]

Sorry, I can't remember now, did that 4 accounted for include the one the defense claims to have found in the toilet bowl day/s later?

Yes, it did. What the police found was 4 spent cartridges and various bullet fragments. What the defense found in the toilet was a bullet or bullet fragment

 

[Gavel Rash]

I'm thinking she never had her phone with her at all. It was Oscar who went back to room left splatters near bedside and chair? getting it taking it back to bathroom...perhaps to change code and make other calls. What's so EXTRA creepy about that is that he is sitting there with a dead body at his knees, bleeding whilst he makes calls.......

 

[minor4th]

The one thing that really confuses me here is WHY didn't Reeva use her phone to call for help?

She was either hiding from the intruders or she was afraid of OP. So either way, why didn't she call someone for help while locked inside the toilet?

If she was hiding from intruders, she may have been too scared to make the noise to make a call. Also, she may not have actually had her phone in the toilet with her. I do wish we had some info on the iphones to know when they were last used to be on the internet or check mail or whatever activity when they were last used

 

[Val1]

If Christo Menelaou will testify, he says he was woken at 03.08 and heard what he believed was the sound of three thunder claps. (I think this would have beeen cricket bat) because if the thunder claps were the shots then it would mean the shots (the first being the one that woke him) were fired at 03.08 and not at 3.17am as everyone keeps stating. So it had to be bat. This guy lives next door facing bathroom window!

That metal plate on the tub certainly could have sounded like thunderclaps imo while being struck, might even have had a reverberating echo and quite probably would not have been heard from a much larger distance.

 

[sorrell skye]

The one thing that really confuses me here is WHY didn't Reeva use her phone to call for help?

She was either hiding from the intruders or she was afraid of OP. So either way, why didn't she call someone for help while locked inside the toilet?

Katy - since a black phone and a white phone were found in the bathroom area (black one partially beneath the floor mat near the gun, white one beneath bloody towels), I can only surmise that she didn't have a phone in the separate toilet cubicle with her.

 

[Cherwell]

If they had sex when they went to bed at 10 pm, which is feasible, she would probably have gone to the
loo afterwards. No reason why he wouldn't know about it.

I am not sure I should still be discussing the loo routine anymore as I think some people felt it was a bit irrelevant which is fine lol

But I will say she died at approx 3.18 five hours after ten o'clock with a virtually empty bladder so was definitely up and around at some time between 10 pm and 3.18 . It can't have been at the time when OP says because he would have to have heard the flush or otherwise we have to believe that she went to the loo some other time without OP hearing It is not evidence but just gives more doubt over his version of events that night .
There are going to be some big pieces of final evidence to come this week I'm sure

I don't understand why you're saying that OP mustn't have been aware of her earlier loo trip. He didn't mention it in either of his statements, granted, but then he skipped from 10 o'clock bedtime to the waking-up-and-getting-fan business. When/if he testifies he will probably add minor details that he hadn't thought up, I mean that he left out before. :wink:

 

[Gavel Rash]

Yes. I have seen someone trying to argue that Menelaou heard the gunshots and everyone else was wrong and heard the cricket bat. I wonder whether this is what the defence will try to argue.

A number of things make me wary of this interpretation:

• At least one of the witnesses who heard what they thought was gunfire later (around 3:17) had military experience and was very credible (Dr Stipp)
• The people who heard what they thought were shots around 3:17 all heard at least three and in some cases four shots together with a woman's screams. The expert witness in court suggested that the door was only hit twice with the bat, so this would not tally. but the plate was hit once as well= 3 sounds
• This individual is a very good friend of OP and i would be somewhat cautious about his testimony, particularly if the DT start to use it to try and discredit what the other ear witnesses testified. true, his friendship could be used both for and against in regard to what he heard

I have bolded replies ...and I only said this cause it would not let me post otherwise

 

[minor4th]

If Christo Menelaou will testify, he says he was woken at 03.08 and heard what he believed was the sound of three thunder claps. (I think this would have beeen cricket bat) because if the thunder claps were the shots then it would mean the shots (the first being the one that woke him) were fired at 03.08 and not at 3.17am as everyone keeps stating. So it had to be bat. This guy lives next door facing bathroom window!

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

 

[minor4th]

You guys are twisting yourselves in all kinds of knots in order to try to get around the evidence that has been presented re: gunshot sounds and cricket bat sounds and their sequence

 

[Lyra500]

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

Do we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door? I thought that was just the defence case - has the prosecution conceded this?

I suppose my other question would be whether it is universally agreed that the ear witnesses MUST have heard the bat in favour of the gun shots as that seems rather unlikely.

I would think it far more likely that the witnesses heard gun shots and that the sound of the bat did not carry far enough for them to hear it if it ended up being a case of them only hearing one or the other.

 

[MeeBee]

Do we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door? I thought that was just the defence case - has the prosecution conceded this?

Their contention is that the shots at 3:17 were the gunshots. They've offered no explanation for the first set of sounds Stipp heard. I do believe they agree the cricket bat came after the gunshots though because their own experts say so.

 

[Rumpole]

Yep, I'd presume 6 round chamber. I've already heard that the bedroom door hole was made by an air-rifle, but I haven't mentioned it here as it was from a supposed reporter's twitter account (there are many fake accounts - so need to confirm this yet).

Since the States own ballistics expert was on the scene yet did not report on the hole in the bedroom door. Is it even a bullet hole? Seems that people are jumping to conclusions. A hole is all we know from photos. Did the ballistics guys inspect it and consider it not worth reporting on? Was it even worth him looking?

Whatever it is the State apparently do not consider it relevant.

Similarly the crack/damage bottom of that door. None of it worth inspecting or at least mentioning in court.

 

[Viper]

Yes, it did. What the police found was 4 spent cartridges and various bullet fragments. What the defense found in the toilet was a bullet or bullet fragment

From the ballistics testimony I am lead to believe that the ballistic specialist allowed the DT to attend his investigation at the crime scene. The toilet bowl was full of blood, obviously one would not be able to see to the bottom, and the two parties were civil and professional in their exchanges. The reports in the papers of the DT finding the bullet tend to give the readers the impression that they did that on their own, obviously they would not be allowed to do that. But it seems that the two parties were there together and the DT may have followed the trail of the ricochet bullet first, but that one "first" does not indicate a lack of skill of the ballistics experts. If it in any way did, Roux would have seized upon it The teams that came before the ballistic team came were not responsible for this line of investigation, that is why they have a ballistics team.

 

[lisasalinger]

In his statement read out in court, OP says:

"I believed that WHEN the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger."

Meaning he did not believe he was in grave danger at the point at which he fired the shots.

He could have fired a warning shot, or he could have fired just the one shot into the cubicle. He didn't. He fired four shots.

Does that not show intent to kill, and that he must therefore be guilty of murder?

Now now... let's not be painting Oscar as a bad guy. According to Roux, he actually really only did 2 double taps of the gun. So just 2 shots, not 4.

:facepalm: