Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[crasshopper]

Yes, I see it says something about his character or Reeva's perceptions of him, but I don't see the relevance to murder.

It does in the world and realm of domestic violence, this has been well established.

Scared of him snapping at her. That is a far cry from being scared that he would physically harm her.

She said "SCARED", "very scared" and variations thereof several times. It would not be honest to apply the one incident where she describes his snapping to ALL the areas where she states her FEAR of him.

 

[weeeva]

Seriously - from complaining about her touching someone's arm, you can immediately jump to him being furious enough on Feb 14 to murder her?

I cannot make that leap.

No I am not ready to make that leap just yet either. But it is not looking good for him. We now know that Reeva was scared of him. Did she try to sneak out while he was asleep, or did he find that she had been texting another man in the bathroom?
We will just have to wait and see.

 

[steveml]

I tend to stay away from interpreting court behavior when they are not in the witness box. We all know it is theater. Sexy girls dress like librarians, gangsters put on suits and hide their tattoos, people wear glasses to look more book smart, they either dye their hair or don't dye their hair depending on what they are accused of... it's all fake and coached.

How somebody behaves is super fun to watch and talk about, but doesn't necessarily have relevance.

Now... how they behave in the witness box, I do believe has some relevance.

Jodi was a classic example of this. Her personality did a total flip flop the second Juan really started grilling her. It was in stark contrast to the sweet girl image she was trying to portray. For me, that is when it's relevant. It's like the equivalent of lying.

That's a good point. OP will have been properly coached for court, no doubt about it. I don't think anyone can be coached for being on the stand though. You're on your own and thinking off the cuff.

 

[james83]

That's all true, but with all of those you mentioned, there were other very clear indicators of their guilt IMO. In this case, those things are not present.

Calling stander instead of medical help is an indicator of guilt imo, how else can that be explained?.
Put any person in his shoes according to his story and it goes like this "i found(insert name) slumped over but alive", i phoned an ambulance.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Thanks for doing this, Minor. I appreciate and respect your views.

The only part I bolded was where you mentioned that there was nothing that indicated he could lose his cool and shoot someone dead. I think that we could say this about a lot of killers, otherwise we would be able to prevent a lot more murders.

Prior to their crimes, nobody thought Casey could kill, nobody thought Jodi could kill, nobody saw Scott Peterson's actions coming... it was only until they dug deep that they found some explanations.

Neither Casey, nor Jodi nor Scott had ever been violent with anybody before. Yes, they had some creepy, bad behaviors upon further inspection, but none of them were outwardly violent offenders. I think probably one of the common things we heard about all of them was "I never imagined they would do something like this."

Very good post and points. Also made me think how 'charming' some offenders are to close friends/family of the offender or their victims friends and family.

 

[james83]

What will the judge make of Oscar pleading not guilty to the charge of the gun firing in Tasha's only to see a message from him admitting it?, of course it does not mean he is guilty of premeditated murder but i can't imagine Judge's take to kindly to being blatently lied to.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Seriously - from complaining about her touching someone's arm, you can immediately jump to him being furious enough on Feb 14 to murder her?

I cannot make that leap.

Two words....Simon Gittany...if I can't have you if you are going to leave...let me help you...you don't have to sneak out the back door...ill throw you out the front door and onto the pavement...and then learn over your body and express how much I love you.....

 

[weeeva]

At the Mirror the blogger is wondering if there are msgs nearer the time of the shooting.

That's the million dollar question for me too.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/live-updates-trial-oscar-pistorius-3276636

Me too.

 

[lisasalinger]

That's all true, but with all of those you mentioned, there were other very clear indicators of their guilt IMO. In this case, those things are not present.

Well, not so much for Casey... the jury clearly did not think there was anything pointing to her guilt.

Peterson's case was hugely circumstantial. Many said at the time that having an affair and being a "cad" doesn't equal being a murderer. To this day, we still don't know how he murdered her, yet he's on death row.

At the end of the day, it's all about individual perception... and how good your lawyers are.

The one thing I've learned for sure over the years is that human beings are capable of just about anything, and you quite frequently don't see it coming.

 

[Gryffindor]

Hi everyone. Lovely to meet you all. I've just become a member, having accessed and read all your riveting posts for ages. Thank you admin

In light of recent evidence, possibly a case of: if I can't have you, no-one can. Imo I'm erring towards guilty, personally.

 

[steveml]

I think it's been a good day for the prosecution and a pretty bad one for the defence. Yet another ear witness testifying to a woman screaming, and text messages that suggest OP is a controlling and jealous man. The defence tried its best to discredit Stipp, but only managed to annoy Masipa.

I think the case for intentional murder of RS has been strengthened today.

I'm going for a slight win for defense today. Purely because of the slight memory difficulty with Ms. Stipp and her left hand, and my feeling that the messages from the phone were not quite as revealing as perhaps we'd hoped. If I had the phone as evidence, I'd be hoping to have something better like a threat or regular rowing.
(that's the shouting, not the boat and oars).

 

[lisasalinger]

What will the judge make of Oscar pleading not guilty to the charge of the gun firing in Tasha's only to see a message from him admitting it?, of course it does not mean he is guilty of premeditated murder but i can't imagine Judge's take to kindly to being blatently lied to.

In that video I was watching yesterday of Shapiro talking about the OP case, he stated that the second the Judge catches him in a lie, he's in serious trouble.

This case is all about his credibility. He killed her, no dispute there at all. Now he has to convince us it was an accident. I totally agree that each and every lie that is exposed, no matter how small or big, is an extra crack of the whip from the Judge.

 

[Really?]

The thing is anyone could create the craziest theory about what happened and it would still be as believable as Oscar's fairtytale.
For instance i could say i believe It was aliens who fired the first shots to kill Oscar's dogs, they then beamed up the dogs's and as is a custom on there planet through down a pair of jeans as a thank you, they then seized control of oscars mind and made him fire the 2nd set of shots, then the alien's secret leader Hilton Botha turned up to create confusion m'lady,

omg.......:floorlaugh:

 

[steveml]

Hi everyone. Lovely to meet you all. I've just become a member, having accessed and read all your riveting posts for ages. Thank you admin

In light of recent evidence, possibly a case of: if I can't have you, no-one can. Imo I'm erring towards guilty, personally.

:welcome6:

You can only come in if you go pro-OP, it's hard work playing devil's advocate.


Only kidding, welcome to the forum.

 

[crasshopper]

Well you have got to give it to OPs DT, they are brazen! Now, on top of everything else, they are going to put it to us that the bathroom lights were broken that night. I believe they are just building a record for the appeals process that is coming after his conviction.

Are we just supposed to take Oscar's word the light was broken? Mighty convenient. Perhap's Oscar's memory has failed him DT.

 

[katydid23]

I am uncomfortable hearing people's private message read out at all.

I see a grubby little man reading a (dead) woman's private "diary" and another grubby man egging him on and salivating over it.

I accept that phone calls and messages might contain items of specific evidence. There are times when the evidential value overrides privacy... maybe there will be some of that here. But reading out these private conversations just to make a general point about the relationship being not always loving is pushing it. Especially in the light of the Dude conceding that most ("90%") of messages ARE in fact loving and so the messages as a whole support OP's contention that it was a loving relationship. This feels nasty and grubby... intrusion. Unless there are specific details revealed I give it no weight as evidence.

Reeva tells OP she is afraid of him, and you give that no weight at all?

And just because 90% of the convos are 'loving' does not mean that it was not an abusive relationship. Quite the contrary. jmo

 

[james83]

I think it's been a good day for the prosecution and a pretty bad one for the defence. Yet another ear witness testifying to a woman screaming, and text messages that suggest OP is a controlling and jealous man. The defence tried its best to discredit Stipp, but only managed to annoy Masipa.

I think the case for intentional murder of RS has been strengthened today.

Totally the prosecution's day,the size of the victory is all that's debatable imo.
The defence did not make enough headway with Mrs Stipp as some seem to think they did, she wasn't the best witness, but she did fine imo despite the couple of issue's.

 

[lisasalinger]

I don't completely agree. I think the demeanor of the defendants does say something about them, and I believe juries pay attention to this. Not sure about a judge though

Agreed! Jury - yes. Judge- no.

 

[Cherwell]

Reeva tells OP she is afraid of him, and you give that no weight at all?

And just because 90% of the convos are 'loving' does not mean that it was not an abusive relationship. Quite the contrary. jmo

That's not what he said. He said 90% were normal.

 

[soozieqtips]

The same day Oscar texted her back, saying: “I was standing tight (sic) behind you watching you touch his arm…but when I left you just kept on chatting to him when clearly I was upset.

That's quite common with possessive men. You're doing something their insecurity can't handle, so you should just stop doing it. He wanted to change her into someone else, evidenced by the constant griping about so many minor things.

Although it's sad to 'hear' Reeva's voice from beyond - it's also comforting in its own way that finally, she's being allowed to put her version of their relationship into testimony. If OP had had his way, no one would have cracked his WhatsApp password, and he would have shut Reeva up for good and possibly got away with murder. But thankfully, she is telling her own story and there's nothing he can do to keep her quiet. I imagine he is fuming about this!