Trial Discussion Thread #15

[nastasya]

The point is that if it really were that simple then there'd be no trial. It's possible the law has been misinterpreted by us lay people. We all know what intentional means. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. But to think that it'll be so black and white as to say he shot to kill, regardless of who he thought he was shooting, so he's guilty of intentional murder is naive.

It's not naive, it's South African law. That's why it was included in the criminal complaint.

If a hit man shot the wrong person he would still be guilty of intentional murder.

It's naive for defenders of the psycho killer to believe that he could fire four gunshots at his girlfriend who was using the bathroom and claim a new legal theory - unprovoked, pre-emptive self-defense.

 

[sorrell skye]

Those broken tiles were already on the bathroom floor before the toilet door was removed. If you look to the left of the toilet door, you can see the bathroom scale, as well as a lot of debris that looks like broken tiles. Based on this photo, I don't think the broken tiles were the result of removing the toilet door.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-leaked-in-oscar-pistorius-case-2013-5

 

[Trooper]

It's not naive, it's South African law. That's why it was included in the criminal complaint.

If a hit man shot the wrong person he would still be guilty of intentional murder.

It's naive for defenders of the psycho killer to believe that he could fire four gunshots at his girlfriend who was using the bathroom and claim a new legal theory - unprovoked, pre-emptive self-defense.

:clap:

 

[Trooper]

Does anyone know if the door was on or off at the time which this picture was taken?

The tiles on the floor seem to be from the wall at the side of the toilet door, and I'm wondering if this was done during the incident, or afterwards, to enable removal of the toilet door.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

Off... the door opens from the opposite hinge... you are looking at the frame with the door removed.

 

[G.bng]

I still think there is confusion over what premeditation actually means in this case.

Nel explained - "knew there was a person behind the door, pointed the gun and shot".

It does NOT mean that OP spent any time thinking, "Right, I'm going to kill Reeva". I, for one, don't think he did. I think he lost control for a matter of seconds and shot. He probably picked it up in the first place to scare her.

So all this hoo ha about whether theirs was abusive is somewhat beside the point. Anyone can see red and lose it. But a dead woman in a toilet is rather more likely to happen when you have an irresponsible, emotionally immature gun nut involved. That's why the texts matter. They tell us a little about who OP is - more relevant in some respects than what his relationship with Reeva was like.

That has been one of my two pet theories all along... a tiff, turned tantrum, turned argument, turned rage with a bat, a gun, and a door between! I am not even definitively convinced OP meant (in a conscious not a legal way) to kill Reeva either, just get into that f****** toilet and/or bully and/or scare her.

I also have still not been able to discard that OP did think there was an intruder either, (for many here unlikely, but he just might be mad, trigger happy and irresponsible and I worry there may not be enough hard evidence for the judge to determine BARD he intentionally killed Reeva anyway so I like to keep options open) but from my understanding of SA Criminal law a mistake would not acquit OP anyway, so imo he will either be convicted of:

1. Murder by way of the direct and intentional killing of Reeva (under SA criminal law "intentional" does mean OP had to consciously "intend" to kill Reeva, but that death was a foreseeable consequence of his actions which counts as intentionality... same as in the UK, more or less),

2. Murder by way of "transferred intent", i.e. that he intended to kill an intruder/burglar but killed Reeva instead (same as UK again).

3. Culpable homicide
​

Between options "1" and "2" I have yet to decide which imo is more likely once OP testifies but I consider either more likely than option "3". And I absolutely refuse to contemplate an acquittal because, a) whatever happened, black or white, people absolutely cannot be allowed to go around shooting at doors with human beings behind; b) because I think it would indicate special treatment not conducive to proving racial equality in a nascent democracy; c) it would create a dangerous precedent for others to follow contributing to a culture of gun violence SA already has an excess of.

 

[TorisMom003]

Does anyone know if the door was on or off at the time which this picture was taken?

The tiles on the floor seem to be from the wall at the side of the toilet door, and I'm wondering if this was done during the incident, or afterwards, to enable removal of the toilet door.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

If you look at the hinge that is visible in that photo, you can see that the tile next to the hinge is not broken off. IF the tile was broken off by police removing the door, then one would expect that all of the tile next to both of the hinges would be broken off.

MOO

 

[Viper]

Those broken tiles were already on the bathroom floor before the toilet door was removed. If you look to the left of the toilet door, you can see the bathroom scale, as well as a lot of debris that looks like broken tiles. Based on this photo, I don't think the broken tiles were the result of removing the toilet door.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-leaked-in-oscar-pistorius-case-2013-5

Ooooooohhhh nooooooo! :smile: Cricket bat sounds first, gunshot sounds last! :loveyou:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Those broken tiles were already on the bathroom floor before the toilet door was removed. If you look to the left of the toilet door, you can see the bathroom scale, as well as a lot of debris that looks like broken tiles. Based on this photo, I don't think the broken tiles were the result of removing the toilet door.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-leaked-in-oscar-pistorius-case-2013-5

Wow thanks for that ,no doubt it will be put down to cricket bat vibration .There is so much about this case that we will just never know the truth of how only the sad result

 

[TorisMom003]

Wow thanks for that ,no doubt it will be put down to cricket bat vibration .There is so much about this case that we will just never know the truth of how only the sad result

If the tile came off from cricket bat vibrations traveling through the door, then OP definitely over paid for the house. Wouldn't also the partial tiles on the other side of the door, next to the shower, have also come off then? To bad we can't see that side in the picture shown.

MOO

 

[DebinGA]

How will Roux/OP square his deathly fear of intruders and terror at window sliding noise with OP knowing beforehand that ladder/s were available to Mr. Intruder on the ground behind the house, as were the open balcony doors, and the broken first floor window? No plausible excuse available imo.

 

[Cherwell]

Here's a link from an attorney's office in Pretoria, SA.

Now, if anybody should understand SA law these guys certainly should.

It explains the possible punishments in the trial, and the difference between the charges (with not too much lawyer speak involved). I've posted the link once before, but they have updated the site due to public interest...

http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/recent-court-judgements/comment-oscar-pistorius-trial

Updated, you say? Not recently, unless I'm missing something.

"At writing hereof we are still months away from any trial in this matter, and we assume a lot of new evidence will emerge in this matter which could easily sway this matter in favour of either of the Prosecution or Defence team."

(There's that name Du Toit again! funny that it's so common in SA, isn't it French in origin?)

 

[G.bng]

That's not really premeditation it's a crime of passion, by definition.

Crime passionnel...? Mais non mon cherie!

What LemonMouse describes is not a "crime of passion", which doesn't even exist in English law, but, if still in force anywhere, on the continent the one around here that is, especially in more Latin countries.

No, in English law "provocation" would be the mitigating factor to adduce as a defence to murder, which, if accepted, can reduce a murder charge to "voluntary manslaughter". But it has to be a really serious "provocation", e.g. finding your spouse in bed with another, or four, or five, which caused you to lose control, so a mere argument between OP and Reeva would most definitely not fit the bill even if their relationship had been cemented enough.

 

[soozieqtips]

How will Roux/OP square his deathly fear of intruders and terror at window sliding noise with OP knowing beforehand that ladder/s were available to Mr. Intruder on the ground behind the house, as were the open balcony doors, and the broken first floor window? No plausible excuse available imo.

Exactly. Once again, actions speak louder than words.

His words: "I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime".

His actions: sleeps with balcony doors open and courteously leaves ladders out for intruders.

 

[patCee]

The broken tiles are where the door hinges were I beleive. See photo in link with keys in door.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/User/My%20Documents/Pistorius%20Trial%20Evidence%20Revealed%20-%20NBC%20News.com.htm

 

[Viper]

Murdering a housemate and then claiming you thought it was an intruder is the oldest and most often used excuse there is!

Then, there was another case where child was found on someone's computer. He said he left the computer on and when he got back the cat has found some child sites. The cat did it !

It's sometimes amazing how a defendant and their legal representatives can come into court with ludicrous excuses.

 

[TorisMom003]

The broken tiles are where the door hinges were I beleive. See photo in link with keys in door.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/User/My%20Documents/Pistorius%20Trial%20Evidence%20Revealed%20-%20NBC%20News.com.htm

Link is not working for me. There is a photo upthread that shows the bottom hinge of the door. The tiles beside that bottom hinge are not broken.

 

[patCee]

My link works for me, but a bit slow to open. The other posts show clear photos so never mind.

 

[Lyra500]

Murdering a housemate and then claiming you thought it was an intruder is the oldest and most often used excuse there is!

Then, there was another case where child was found on someone's computer. He said he left the computer on and when he got back the cat has found some child sites. The cat did it !

It's sometimes amazing how a defendant and their legal representatives can come into court with ludicrous excuses.

Indeed.

I have sometimes felt that as well as being able to reduce sentences if people admit guilt early, the judge ought to be able to add some extra time for the people who turn up in court and insult peoples' intelligence and waste everyone's time by pleading not guilty when they really have not got a case. Forcing victim's relatives to sit through a murder trial when it is really obvious that you are guilty just seems to add another layer of horror to the crime committed.

That creep Mark Bridger who murdered the little girl April Jones springs to mind as a prime example.

 

[jay-jay]

What, if anything, was different about that night that might have been the source of an argument that escalated out of control?

* Tropika Island was to air in 3 days: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ily-reveal-theyre-hooked-reality-TV-show.html

Other OP-fuse lighting ideas?

Well, there was something about that 'hurdle' Reeva mentioned in a text earlier that day .. and she had then gone on to say that he might need the company of his family that night. We still don't know what that hurdle was or if it was significant in starting some kind of disagreement between them .. but those text communications that day sounded a bit odd, to say the least.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Exactly. Once again, actions speak louder than words.

His words: "I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime".

His actions: sleeps with balcony doors open and courteously leaves ladders out for intruders.

Yes and he has a security system (not set presumably ) with external sensors but still assumes someone has got into his house inside of thinking my girlfriend has nipped to the loo .