Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Trooper]

The 60 second call to Netcare is weird! IMO That is not enough time. Time seems to play a role in everything regarding OP fairy tale. He connected to Netcare and told them he shot a woman in the head and arm and hip and then what? They ask for his name and address to dispatch an ambulance, right? No. They ask him if she is breathing, he must have said yes or they would have talked him through CPR. But both the state's expert and OP expert determined that Reeva died in the WC almost immediately. IMO 60 seconds is not enough time for the call to Netcare; I doubt there is a voice recording and I doubt that Netcare told OP to drive her. I believe he called but he hung up on them sometime during the conversation.

I dismiss the very concept of Netcare telling him to drive the injured party himself to a hospital.. IF he told them the injuries..

it could only be that he didn't tell them of the shot to the head.. or the hip.... and frankly, I doubt if they would tell him to do that , even with the arm shot. And if he said gunshot, Netcare itself would notify the police as protocol ...


but no one did, until Dr Stipp did.

 

[MeeBee]

BIB. Actually one or two blows could do that. Remember that the bat is delivering energy to a tile and that tile disperses the energy to surrounding tiles and it travels until all of the energy has been absorbed. So hitting a single tile hard enough could and likely did (by looking at how many fell) cause more than one tile to come loose and fall off.

These tiles were all in a row, and they were much smaller that the ones to the left of them, meaning they had a smaller surface area that held them to the wall. That is why none of the larger tiles fell off, but a straight line of small tiles did.

I agree with that, but I meant if the bat bounced off the plate once and hit the tiles then it's not enough force to knock all those tiles down. It might crack them though. And I think the plate looks like it was hit or kicked once.

 

[Trooper]

I bet he began to tell them she fell on tiles, or something, then terminated the call.

 

[Rumpole]

Arterial spurts could have been caused by Oscar carrying her and downstairs, i.e. squeezing by holding her tightly while carrying her. Also if her knees were bent over his arm, with her being in a type of concertina position; if it was easier to carry her that way. This would naturally cause large open wounds/ holes to projectile blood from them. There were 3.

*Boke

I don't think you get "arterial spurts" from squeezing

Anyway... why try so hard to twist every small detail to be something different from facts testified to? Dying upstairs, or downstairs does not change the overall facts of the case?

I have seen people suggest that OP had his fingers down her throat downstairs to try and finish her off. So claiming she was alive. It seems that anything different in any way from what OP said becomes a viable theory? that surely IS a presumption of guilt. Whatever the facts are twist, deny, downplay to fit a preconceived notion that he is guilty. Lying about every detail.

 

[Trooper]

Dr Stipp, who testified as to Oscars position in the hallway, said Oscar had his fingers down her throat.. he didn't offer an opinion as to why this would be so . nor did he offer an opinion as to why Oscar would have his left hand on Reevas groin.. he merely described Oscars position in the hallway .

he did say he removed Oscars fingers .. Oscar didn't do that himself.

 

[jay-jay]

LOL!! Facebook gives me a headache too, now. What a mess it is and so annoying. I like the simplicity of twitter.

I suppose it all depends what you want to do with it .. I find I get more out of facebook because you can do more with it .. absolutely *love* FB

 

[MeeBee]

I don't think you get "arterial spurts" from squeezing

Anyway... why try so hard to twist every small detail to be something different from facts testified to? Dying upstairs, or downstairs does not change the overall facts of the case?

I have seen people suggest that OP had his fingers down her throat downstairs to try and finish her off. So claiming she was alive. It seems that anything different in any way from what OP said becomes a viable theory? that surely IS a presumption of guilt. Whatever the facts are twist, deny, downplay to fit a preconceived notion that he is guilty. Lying about every detail.

Yeah, someone had suggested that it work like squeezing a hose and pushing the blood out. But the more I thought about it, I'm fairly certain the human body doesn't work that way. Only the heart will create enough pressure for the blood to spray, especially at the distance it did downstairs. Forcing the blood out would only cause drips or gushes, but not spurts. Arterial spray can't really be duplicated.

 

[MeeBee]

I suppose it all depends what you want to do with it .. I find I get more out of facebook because you can do more with it .. absolutely *love* FB

Well, it's a good way to keep in touch with friends and family all over the world. But other than that it's annoying now lol. With the cluttered news feed and the ads. Ugh.

 

[Trooper]

Oscar didn't mention in his statements as to why he had his fingers down Reevas throat in the hallway.. so no one is saying anything 'different' to Oscar.. Oscar says nothing about it.

 

[jay-jay]

The 60 second call to Netcare is weird! IMO That is not enough time. Time seems to play a role in everything regarding OP fairy tale. He connected to Netcare and told them he shot a woman in the head and arm and hip and then what? They ask for his name and address to dispatch an ambulance, right? No. They ask him if she is breathing, he must have said yes or they would have talked him through CPR. But both the state's expert and OP expert determined that Reeva died in the WC almost immediately. IMO 60 seconds is not enough time for the call to Netcare; I doubt there is a voice recording and I doubt that Netcare told OP to drive her. I believe he called but he hung up on them sometime during the conversation.

Yep, 60 seconds is deffo not enough time .. you're right about all those things they would've been asking.

I've got vague recollections though of reading or hearing somewhere that he tried to call Netcare but couldn't get through, though .. I've no idea where I've got that from but I don't think I've confused it with any of the other calls .. I'm pretty certain that wherever it was I heard it, it was in connection with his call the Netcare because I thought it quite odd at the time that someone wouldn't be able to get through to an emergency service.


Edit: .. just to add .. Rumple is right .. no one testified that Reeva actually died in the toilet, she died a short while later at the bottom of the stairs.

 

[Gryffindor]

I don't think you get "arterial spurts" from squeezing

Anyway... why try so hard to twist every small detail to be something different from facts testified to? Dying upstairs, or downstairs does not change the overall facts of the case?

I have seen people suggest that OP had his fingers down her throat downstairs to try and finish her off. So claiming she was alive. It seems that anything different in any way from what OP said becomes a viable theory? that surely IS a presumption of guilt. Whatever the facts are twist, deny, downplay to fit a preconceived notion that he is guilty. Lying about every detail.

Stipp testified she was biting down on his fingers Plus, you don't put your fingers down someone's throat!! To aid breathing, for clear airways, you merely check and/ or unfurl the tongue, to maintain clear airways!!

And as for breathing and circulation - recovery position. She was WELL beyond ANY point of recovery!! :-(

 

[Trooper]

One could argue Oscar is anxious to tell Judge Masipa about his fingers down Reevas throat, etc.. and that's my take on it, because he is such a nice guy. He may very well hope no one asks such an indelicate question.. on the balance of probabilities that would be the most likely.

 

[Viper]

I agree with that, but I meant if the bat bounced off the plate once and hit the tiles then it's not enough force to knock all those tiles down. It might crack them though. And I think the plate looks like it was hit or kicked once.

I picture very clearly OP hitting the door a couple times and hitting the tile surround very hard once or twice and hitting the bath plate even harder still! I haven't a clue about the order in which he hit those things, but the evidence is that he hit them! Trying to morph the damages into some sort of home improvement project gone wrong is just too far fetched for me given that a woman's dead body is found inside, behind all of the destruction.

 

[Gryffindor]

Yep, 60 seconds is deffo not enough time .. you're right about all those things they would've been asking.

I've got vague recollections though of reading or hearing somewhere that he tried to call Netcare but couldn't get through, though .. I've no idea where I've got that from but I don't think I've confused it with any of the other calls .. I'm pretty certain that wherever it was I heard it, it was in connection with his call the Netcare because I thought it quite odd at the time that someone wouldn't be able to get through to an emergency service.


Edit: .. just to add .. Rumple is right .. no one testified that Reeva actually died in the toilet, she died a short while later at the bottom of the stairs.

Obstructing her airways??

 

[jay-jay]

I bet he began to tell them she fell on tiles, or something, then terminated the call.

Hopefully they record all calls to the emergency services, like we do here in the UK .. but then again, with SA, you never know!

 

[jay-jay]

Well, it's a good way to keep in touch with friends and family all over the world. But other than that it's annoying now lol. With the cluttered news feed and the ads. Ugh.

I use an ad-blocker, so mine is all nice and tidy now :dance:

 

[Trooper]

Hopefully they record all calls to the emergency services, like we do here in the UK .. but then again, with SA, you never know!

I'd take a punt and say they do.. its a private healthcare thingy. people pay subscriptions over the odds for it.. Ive used it myself in Capetown, and it worked very well. ( I didn't shoot anyone and no one shot me) .. but they kept me on the line while they dispatched an ambulance, same process in the UK and AU, etc. they take details, while they pass this on to the travelling ambo etc. the normal sort of procedure.. giving me directions etc..

the injured party survived 100%

 

[jay-jay]

Oscar didn't mention in his statements as to why he had his fingers down Reevas throat in the hallway.. so no one is saying anything 'different' to Oscar.. Oscar says nothing about it.

I'm sure it was said that he was clearing her throat as part of CPR (you have to do something or other to make sure the tongue doesn't fall back .. or sommat .. I'm not that good with first aid ..!)

Edit: .. soz, I've just seen someone has answered this already

 

[MeeBee]

I picture very clearly OP hitting the door a couple times and hitting the tile surround very hard once or twice and hitting the bath plate even harder still! I haven't a clue about the order in which he hit those things, but the evidence is that he hit them! Trying to morph the damages into some sort of home improvement project gone wrong is just too far fetched for me given that a woman's dead body is found inside, behind all of the destruction.

It's not a completely illogical conclusion. The problem is the state hasn't explained it just might not ever get around to it. So it's all conjecture. The tiles don't look consistent with having been with a bat to my untrained eye. I'm not morphing what I see, that's what I see. And why doesn't the state have a theory on this stuff? Didn't the police question Oscar about the damage? If not why? Surely, at some point, Oscar must have explained the extra damage, if not, then it's just more evidence of shoddy investigative work. So here are the possibilities:

Oscar has explained it, his explanations were, at the least, reasonable so Nel decided to leave it at the power of suggestion and only put the pictures up. He won't ask Oscar about it.

OR

Oscar has not explained it and Nel doesn't want to dig further, again, preferring the power of suggestion

OR

Oscar has explained it and Nel, dissatisfied with his answers, is waiting to bring it up and nail him on cross examination.

OR

Oscar has explained it and Roux is waiting for the opportunity for direct examination to allow him the opportunity to explain the damage.

The trial isn't over yet and I'm not really comfortable with filling in the holes myself. I mean, I could, and the explanation that Oscar was on a rampage is not beyond the realm of possibility, it's just conjecture right now.

 

[Gryffindor]

I suppose it all depends what you want to do with it .. I find I get more out of facebook because you can do more with it .. absolutely *love* FB

Haha. Does my nut in! Everything is in one location on Twitter. More straightforward and conversational. Better for a blether ;-)