Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Trooper]

I'm sure it was said that he was clearing her throat as part of CPR (you have to do something or other to make sure the tongue doesn't fall back .. or sommat .. I'm not that good with first aid ..!)

I don't know who said that, but it wasn't Dr Stipp . he gave no indication ,nor supposition, nor opinion as to why Oscar was doing this..merely that he was..

Im not saying that might not be a reason. what do I know?? I only state what Dr Stipp said himself.

 

[MeeBee]

I use an ad-blocker, so mine is all nice and tidy now :dance:

Yeah, but FB still puts page ads in my news feed more than my actual friends' stuff does. Does work for those?

 

[soozieqtips]

I'd take a punt and say they do.. its a private healthcare thingy. people pay subscriptions over the odds for it.. Ive used it myself in Capetown, and it worked very well. ( I didn't shoot anyone and no one shot me) .. but they kept me on the line while they dispatched an ambulance, same process in the UK and AU, etc. they take details, while they pass this on to the travelling ambo etc. the normal sort of procedure.. giving me directions etc..

the injured party survived 100%

They absolutely should keep a full record of all emergency calls. Suppose someone called to ask for an ambulance, but the ambulance never came, the injured person died, and the person who called continues to insist that Netcare promised to dispatch an ambulance. If no content is recorded, no one can prove what was said, so a record is needed for legal reasons, if nothing else. And OP's call is relevant because it will prove if he described Reeva's injuries accurately, at least the shot to the head!

 

[katydid23]

What bothers me about the everything is fine line is this
at 3:21:11 Oscar gets of the phone from Netcare and says they told him to bring Reeva to hospital, yet at 3:22:05 he answers the call from Baba, further more at 3:26 when the Stander's and Baba arrive Oscar is only just carrying Reeva down the stairs.
Correct me if i'm wrong here but to me if your partner is laying seriously injured and you have been told to bring her in at 3:21:11 how long would it be before you had her in your car?.
There's something fishy about that period of time.

Also, if u have just been told to bring a wounded adult to the hospital, and you are by yourself, you need some help. And here comes a security officer in a vehicle, right outside his door, offering him emergency aid, and he says things are fine and hangs up? WTH?

What a perfect opportunity to ask him "PLEASE, help me get Reeva to the hospital !" He could have run her right down stairs and into their vehicle in moments.

 

[MeeBee]

Haha. Does my nut in! Everything is in one location on Twitter. More straightforward and conversational. Better for a blether ;-)

Twitter has really grown on me, it's a great way to get info, everything is short and sweet and simple. No drama, no muss, no fuss. Refreshing

 

[Viper]

Yeah, someone had suggested that it work like squeezing a hose and pushing the blood out. But the more I thought about it, I'm fairly certain the human body doesn't work that way. Only the heart will create enough pressure for the blood to spray, especially at the distance it did downstairs. Forcing the blood out would only cause drips or gushes, but not spurts. Arterial spray can't really be duplicated.

Looking at this issue it is important to note that a severed artery that can shoot blood from the bedroom hall all the way to the bedside wall is impossible. If it were possible the WC would have pints and pints and pints of Reeva's blood covering the walls and pooling on the floor, and the walls outside of the WC and proceeding down the hallway would also have blood spatter.

Also, a person with a severed artery has literally only minutes to live. So here we are with time again. It took OP so many minutes to actually carry Reeva downstairs. If she was alive all of those minutes, laying in the bathroom floor, her heart would continue to pump blood through her body and it wound bleed out of her hip, arm, and head profusely, creating a huge pool of blood perhaps as large as a meter in diameter. So it makes sense to me that she died in the WC, and when OP pulled her out some blood (very little given she had severed artery) pooled from her wounds.

Just my thoughts..

 

[jay-jay]

Yeah, but FB still puts page ads in my news feed more than my actual friends' stuff does. Does work for those?

I don't know if it's or not, but I never get ads coming up in the actual feed itself .. I'm pretty sure I never got them come up on the feed even before I added the blocker though, and I only did it to remove all the annoying ads down the r/h side of the screen.

 

[Trooper]

They absolutely should keep a full record of all emergency calls. Suppose someone called to ask for an ambulance, but the ambulance never came, the injured person died, and the person who called continues to insist that Netcare promised to dispatch an ambulance. If no content is recorded, no one can prove what was said, so a record is needed for legal reasons, if nothing else. And OP's call is relevant because it will prove if he described Reeva's injuries accurately, at least the shot to the head!

Pretoria isn't a sort of jungle outpost.. its the National Capitol.. it has twice the population of my National Capitol, Canberra.. it has all the bells and whistles, .. all the mod cons.. :giggle:

things work there ...

 

[MeeBee]

I don't know if it's or not, but I never get ads coming up in the actual feed itself .. I'm pretty sure I never got them come up on the feed even before I added the blocker though, and I only did it to remove all the annoying ads down the r/h side of the screen.

Yes, the feed ads are fairly new and super annoying. The probably works for them. They're basically pages I haven't subscribed to posting in your feed like normal and then asking you to the like the page. Um, no, I will not join your cross fit page to learn how to shed fat and build muscle lol.

 

[jay-jay]

I don't know who said that, but it wasn't Dr Stipp . he gave no indication ,nor supposition, nor opinion as to why Oscar was doing this..merely that he was..

Im not saying that might not be a reason. what do I know?? I only state what Dr Stipp said himself.

But what would the other reason be, though .. why else would he be doing it?

 

[Trooper]

But what would the other reason be, though .. why else would he be doing it?

Hon.. no way am I sliding into Oscars mind to figure that one out!

 

[DebinGA]

But what would the other reason be, though .. why else would he be doing it?

Preventing RS from speaking?

 

[Cherwell]

Nobody testified she died in toilet?

She was incapacitated by having brains blown out, but still breathing and heart still beating ... obviously, with evidence of continued arterial spurts as OP carried her down stairs. Her heart stopped once she was downstairs.

Rumple is right .. no one testified that Reeva actually died in the toilet, she died a short while later at the bottom of the stairs.

I thought the pathologist, Dr Saayman, said that she could only have taken two or three breaths after the head shot?

This is difficult because there's no record of him actually speaking - we've only got what people reported him to say.

ETA: Juror 13 who seems pretty reliable has that she "did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound"

 

[MeeBee]

Looking at this issue it is important to note that a severed artery that can shoot blood from the bedroom hall all the way to the bedside wall is impossible. If it were possible the WC would have pints and pints and pints of Reeva's blood covering the walls and pooling on the floor, and the walls outside of the WC and proceeding down the hallway would also have blood spatter.

Also, a person with a severed artery has literally only minutes to live. So here we are with time again. It took OP so many minutes to actually carry Reeva downstairs. If she was alive all of those minutes, laying in the bathroom floor, her heart would continue to pump blood through her body and it wound bleed out of her hip, arm, and head profusely, creating a huge pool of blood perhaps as large as a meter in diameter. So it makes sense to me that she died in the WC, and when OP pulled her out some blood (very little given she had severed artery) pooled from her wounds.

Just my thoughts..

I disagree. Arterial spray is powerful. The force of blood pressure, even in a faintly beating heart, is very strong. I have seen arterial spray go many feet. The heart, as we all know, can take minutes to die after the brain has died or been injured. Then there's the matter of a rapidly losing blood heart starting and stopping. I believe there actually was arterial spray in the toilet room and in the bathroom. If Reeva was in a certain position for a while, for instance, bent at hips, head in toilet, then all the initial spray could have pooled as opposed to spurting out. It wasn't until Oscar began moving her, and her heart, faintly trying to beat, that the spray began getting all over the walls and the sofa and stuff. There can't be arterial spray unless the heart is beating.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't know who said that, but it wasn't Dr Stipp . he gave no indication ,nor supposition, nor opinion as to why Oscar was doing this..merely that he was..

Im not saying that might not be a reason. what do I know?? I only state what Dr Stipp said himself.

What Dr Stipp did say was that because RS's head was straight up when he arrived (later it laid to the left) he thought it was because Oscar was trying to open her airway.

I assumed that was when OP had his fingers in her mouth. He would have had to pull her jaw down but she clamped down on him. Even the doc had trouble.

 

[Trooper]

Preventing RS from speaking?

Dr Stipp.. said Oscar was distraught.. he believed genuinely distraught, and I trust his perception on that.. distraught people would be his daily lot, I suppose..

I ... well. I suppose he could have been trying out some first aid stuff, but without being harsh.. her head had a black talon bullit thru it. parts of her scalp and skull etc, was still splattered all over the upstairs toilet pan..

I'll go with Stipp on this one, and put it in the Oscar distraught basket and not even try and guess.

 

[DebinGA]

According to Websters' "distraught" means "upset and agitated". OP was certainly distraught, realizing his life had now irrevocably changed for the worse.

 

[Trooper]

What Dr Stipp did say was that because RS's head was straight up when he arrived (later it laid to the left) he thought it was because Oscar was trying to open her airway.

I assumed that was when OP had his fingers in her mouth. He would have had to pull her jaw down but she clamped down on him. Even the doc had trouble.

that's right.. Id forgotten the doctor had difficulty with that process.. .. the clamping teeth..

Stipp figured she had been dead for some minutes, at the very least, by the condition of her eyes..

So I don't know how long Oscar had been .. well... held down there on his knees by Reeva's situation. And Clarice was fluttering around too, laying out towels and plastic bags and whatnot..

 

[Viper]

It's not a completely illogical conclusion. The problem is the state hasn't explained it just might not ever get around to it. So it's all conjecture. The tiles don't look consistent with having been with a bat to my untrained eye. I'm not morphing what I see, that's what I see. And why doesn't the state have a theory on this stuff? Didn't the police question Oscar about the damage? If not why? Surely, at some point, Oscar must have explained the extra damage, if not, then it's just more evidence of shoddy investigative work. So here are the possibilities:

Oscar has explained it, his explanations were, at the least, reasonable so Nel decided to leave it at the power of suggestion and only put the pictures up. He won't ask Oscar about it.

OR

Oscar has not explained it and Nel doesn't want to dig further, again, preferring the power of suggestion

OR

Oscar has explained it and Nel, dissatisfied with his answers, is waiting to bring it up and nail him on cross examination.

OR

Oscar has explained it and Roux is waiting for the opportunity for direct examination to allow him the opportunity to explain the damage.

The trial isn't over yet and I'm not really comfortable with filling in the holes myself. I mean, I could, and the explanation that Oscar was on a rampage is not beyond the realm of possibility, it's just conjecture right now.

OP has not explained it. OP did not give a statement to the police, ever.

Photos of the crime scene that we have are in the state's photo book, and they are in evidence. The state carefully chose each photo with purpose. So the tiles and the bath plate will be used.

 

[MeeBee]

OP has not explained it. OP did not give a statement to the police, ever.

Photos of the crime scene that we have are in the state's photo book, and they are in evidence. The state carefully chose each photo with purpose. So the tiles and the bath plate will be used.

Well, that is strange to me and a huge error by the police, unless it's common to only get statements from witnesses and not the accused in SA.

The photos were already used, jus not explained.