Trial Discussion Thread #16

[TorisMom003]

To find out who took the phone from the house, one just needs to find out who left the house at 8 am or right before then.

 

[james83]

I think giving him 4 mins is very generous of you and even being so generous it still leaves a shocking time lapse
I am sometimes amazed by how much I can do when I have something in the microwave for say just two minutes .
He did say after backing out of the bedroom he rushed and then at another point ran back to the bathroom .
If Reeva was indeed shot around 3 he would have been in that cubicle very soon after IMO

Exactly, if your partner was behind a door not responding after gunshots were fired through it, that door is coming down very quickly, doesn't ring true as nothing seems to with oscar's story.

 

[nastasya]

It's very odd, given his 'grief-stricken' state, that he was able to think clearly enough to call people who could help him, but not call anyone who could have helped Reeva. I mean, the whole reason he killed the 'intruder' was to protect himself and Reeva, yet after he shoots her, he does absolutely nothing to protect or help her at all, he immediately starts thinking of how to help himself.

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

Killer's own story:

He believed he shot her but didn't call police or ambulance while he thought she was non-responsive in the toilet after being shot.

 

[shane13]

But there are only 28 days in February, unless it's a leap year. Nel must have been confused about the date. If it was 16 days later that he got the phone, it would have been March 2nd. I'll go check if a full transcript of that day is available.

Good point.

Which is why I asked here a few days ago, if anyone else caught the Tuesday very beginning live as I did, and it was a bit of a surprise to see those first several minutes excised from all videos of Sessioin 1 Tuesday.

I even asked if anyone can find me a Session 1 from any other day, that does not begin with everyone standing as Judge walks in--but not from last Tuesday's Session 1 videos!!

 

[Insp.Dots]

Having a catch up again. But a couple of queries...

Firstly regarding RS in toilet...the DT said she had less than a teaspoon in her bladder. I agree with the flushing confusion etc but predict the DT will simply say she was disturbed by OP's shouting re intruders. We have yet to hear if toilet was tested for urine /paper. The state never tested or looked for confirmation that OP's version was possible.

FWIW IMO, If only Botha had done this there maybe less doubt now.

With this in mind does anyone know if they tested or have any fingerprints on the door? Ie: to confirm if panels were pulled out etc.

Also any of Reeva's fingerprints on door or in toilet?......
I imagined myself (to test OP's version) if I was listening for an intruder I would maybe go close up to the door with my hands against it and listening.

Also.....were there fingerprints on the window. IF OP didn't open the window then he must then presume the intruder (Reeva) opened it so IF true her prints would surely show?

I am assuming the state didn't call Netcare to the stand as they may back OP's version. From media reports the neighbours and Standers directly next to OP will also back his version. I think Nels cross examination of OP and what he himself says on the stand will be crucial for the Judge.

I still think that the damage in bedroom, bathroom and jeans outside will all add up to the State saying Reeva was trying to leave him.

Did we have it confirmed that Reeva's phone was definitely one of those found in the bathroom?
My biggest question is did she take it with her in order to call for help?...She text Myers at around 10pm saying it was too late to drive home......that says to me their arguing at that stage wasn't critical. No-one reports hearing arguing before 2am...there were no actual texts received or sent during that time.

The state didn't call the ex boyfriend so whatever he said wasn't thought valuable. No doubt at all OP had temper issues, also those who like me have stalked the relevant Twitter pages will see he had an ex that was instrumental in adding to stress and had made comment to RS regarding his cheating and had told OP negative things to put him off RS. I also think it noteworthy that ST never ended her 2 relationships with him and his ex of 5 years has been standing up for him, none of the witnesses to the Gun incidents ever reported to the Police. They ONLY spoke when the state approached them after RS's death.....If only someone had......

NONE of the above excuses what OP has done.

Is it arrogance that is driving OP to stick to his version?

In (my) perfect world and his religious one, we would see OP break down in the witness box and tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, sadly that is unlikely to happen so the Judge will have the burden of making the correct judgement....that is actually the one thing I am pretty certain WILL happen.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

He did have an alarm system with motion detection technology. Photographs of the security system, outside lamp posts and lighting conditions were all taken and turned in to the Judge with the albums.

Yes I had noticed the evidence of that too which is why I feel there must have been some ambient lighting in his bedroom before he closed the curtains and if there wasn't we are expected to believe that he got out of bed knowing his partner was awake and yet didn't put so much as a bedside light on and following that We are expected to believe Reeva would also not have put a light on to walk all that distance to the bathroom .
Even in pitch darkness I can't see how she got to that toilet without him hearing her because he was so close to that bed at all times due to the small size of the balcony . He may as well not used the words outside because with the doors open he was still virtually in the bedroom . One or two steps outside at most .
The right hand side of bed was only about 800 to 1000mm from the door threshold .
I think when someone's says they went outside onto a balcony we visualise space and distance that wasn't the case here JMO

 

[shane13]

Shane, the phone issue is something I would expect to have been investigated, although nothing has been mentioned in prosecution.It could be that aside from delay, they may feel there's nothing to be gained from it.

The state's own cellular telephone expert could see no signs of tampering with the phone once it was unlocked, and they also had the help of Apple technicians.

They've been thorough with this phone and may well have need FBI intervention to allow Apple to become involved.

I agree that the nature of how and why the phone wasn't immediately retained in evidence from OP is something that deserves more focus than is being given though.

BBM
Well you've said this samething before when I bring up the 5th phone, and so I reply ln the same way.

This is precisely my point. Clearly it was NOT investigated--though it is a serious crime, and could be affecting the whole trial.

 

[jay-jay]

This case literally makes my head spin my thoughts are permanently all over the place

Yes, same here, Gb! :scared:

 

[Insp.Dots]

Wow .. somehow I have managed to miss/forget half of that message (I know bits of it, but not the full text for some unknown reason):

HECK....I am completely confused now. I thought that message was referring to the engagement party they went to NOT the sports awards....That was (the awards) was there first public outing together. CONFUSED.COM

 

[steveml]

Why did OP feel the need to run to the sliding doors, open them, run out onto the balcony to scream for help when the bathroom window was open? He was right there beside it while trying to get into the toilet room. All he had to do was put his head out of the window (since there is no screen covering the window) and yell for help.

I suppose this is to eat up some of the extra time that OP and his defense have to account for.

MOO

That's a valid point.

The bathroom window is adjacent to the opposite houses which are very far away in comparison. Mrs Stipps window shows how far away these houses are (72 meters away). You would naturally shout towards you nearest neighbours than shout across an expanse of open land.

I have included apples this time, rather than gingerbread men, to indicate the direction that I would expect somebody to shout.

I think the state may have made a big mistake not using witnesses close to the house. Unless the properties were vacant at the time, they must have heard things.

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-02-20/...hearing-told-witness-heard-non-stop-shouting/

 

[steveml]

Good point.

Which is why I asked here a few days ago, if anyone else caught the Tuesday very beginning live as I did, and it was a bit of a surprise to see those first several minutes excised from all videos of Sessioin 1 Tuesday.

I even asked if anyone can find me a Session 1 from any other day, that does not begin with everyone standing as Judge walks in--but not from last Tuesday's Session 1 videos!!

I've had a previous look as I'm really intrigued about this. I'll look further when I've got a moment.

 

[Insp.Dots]

so I'm asking.. how can Oscar replicate exactly a sound he's never heard??

Ah, but he only needs to replicate what he 'himself' did on the night, the sound of 'him' screaming....in the hope the witnesses will then say "Well blow me down, he sounds like a woman, that IS what I heard".

 

[steveml]

Is it the Van der Mewre's that also heard some bangs not shots earlier than the actual shooting timeframe ?

No probs,

Estelle testified: Awoke at 3am to four consecutive noises, bang-bang-bang-bang. I turned to my husband, he told me they were gunshots.

 

[Viper]

Ah, but he only needs to replicate what he 'himself' did on the night, the sound of 'him' screaming....in the hope the witnesses will then say "Well blow me down, he sounds like a woman, that IS what I heard".

Hummm... I thought that OP didn't hear anything that night, just a sound in the bathroom that later became the sound of the window opening. Can't recall reading his words to the Court about him screaming like a woman or arguing with himself, loudly, for 17 minutes, before finally calling Stander...

 

[Insp.Dots]

He can't.

I don't see how anyone can reproduce a sound you make in such an emotive event, without that event happening. Not in a convincing way anyhow.

Do you really think the wailing we hear from both men and women during emotional trauma can be replicated on a whim (Malaysian Airlines recent tragedy, to quote one of the many thousands of examples)?

Fair point and I did note some of the men wailing could indeed be misconstrued as women's wails.

 

[lisasalinger]

BBM
I am glad someone else appreciates the crime of removing the 5th phne from the crime scene as I have written about for nearly a year now.

But you have an assumption there that needs elucidation.
A year ago, we had from Botha that Carl and Oldwage werre there before him and going all over the place.

We have to update this to court testimony.
Aimee was there before them, and the Col in charge, van Rensburg, gave her free pass upstairs to take a watch, etc. Was she wearing crime scene shoe protectors? Was she watched every second when up there?

So we do not know who took (or was even given? the 5th phone).
But as I posted a few days ago, Nel said he didn't get it back till the 30th of Feb 2013.

Now for the bed and duvet blood.

This is all hypothetical now.
Is it possible that OP plunked her down on the bed, while the duvet was there on top of the bed. This could be say, needing to get a better grip so he needed to rest her there for a moment.

Or it could have been more sinsiter, such as attempting to cover her and carry her out to a car and take the body away. He had to change plans when others called and were about to be at his home. So he abandoned the duvet covering aspect and picked her up and was soon seen at the top of the stairs carrying her down.

And of course Nel did not elaborate, and experts said that they did not even test the blood above the headboard.

As I have written, what really happonened may be different from what both sides are alleging in court.

"This one runs deep."

Just for clarification, many of us are just as concerned about the 5th phone being removed from the crime scene, as well as being concerned that OP had so many family members and friends there that night. You are not alone in that.

The phone was turned over to the State on February 26, not the 30th, per Nel in court. This is more of a minor detail, but just stating for accuracy sake.

The blood spatter on the duvet was small spatter/droplets from the photos we saw. Reeva's body was covered in blood from the testimony we heard so I do not believe it would be possible for her to be on that duvet. There would have been much larger staining.

 

[shane13]

Just for clarification, many of us are just as concerned about the 5th phone being removed from the crime scene, as well as being concerned that OP had so many family members and friends there that night. You are not alone in that.

The phone was turned over to the State on February 26, not the 30th, per Nel in court. This is more of a minor detail, but just stating for accuracy sake.

The blood spatter on the duvet was small spatter/droplets from the photos we saw. Reeva's body was covered in blood from the testimony we heard so I do not believe it would be possible for her to be on that duvet. There would have been much larger staining.

BBM
Link please.

 

[steveml]

BBM
Well you've said this samething before when I bring up the 5th phone, and so I reply ln the same way.

This is precisely my point. Clearly it was NOT investigated--though it is a serious crime, and could be affecting the whole trial.

It could affect the case from a legal perspective, but I don't think it would help the trial.

Where should the blame be apportioned? It was the bungling Hilton Botha's error again.

This is the likely reason the state are happy to let it lie.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

No probs,

Estelle testified: Awoke at 3am to four consecutive noises, bang-bang-bang-bang. I turned to my husband, he told me they were gunshots.

Thanks
I must have been dreaming because I thought one witness had heard some thuds/bangs within the hour prior to the shooting . Maybe I have just read it in a press statement . I have read so much now it is all blurring . I have also done so many screen shots to my iPad I struggle to find things when I want to refer to them ,need to sort into albums lol

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes I had noticed the evidence of that too which is why I feel there must have been some ambient lighting in his bedroom before he closed the curtains and if there wasn't we are expected to believe that he got out of bed knowing his partner was awake and yet didn't put so much as a bedside light on and following that We are expected to believe Reeva would also not have put a light on to walk all that distance to the bathroom .
Even in pitch darkness I can't see how she got to that toilet without him hearing her because he was so close to that bed at all times due to the small size of the balcony . He may as well not used the words outside because with the doors open he was still virtually in the bedroom . One or two steps outside at most .
The right hand side of bed was only about 800 to 1000mm from the door threshold .
I think when someone's says they went outside onto a balcony we visualise space and distance that wasn't the case here JMO

BBM - She could have used her phone's flashlight to guide her way to the toilet if she didn't want to disturb OP, but as he was already awake anyway and bringing fan/fans in... there was really no reason for Reeva to have done that. And I don't honestly see that she was about to check emails etc while perched on the loo at 3am when OP was busying himself on the balcony. I think she was planning to use it to call for help, which begs the question, why didn't OP remove it from the bathroom before the police came? Surely it looked incriminating sitting outside the toilet like that when she'd been killed inside it? Or did he think it would look more like she'd dropped it in a hurry while fleeing the invisible intruder and therefore add extra weight to his fiction novel?