Trial Discussion Thread #17

[jay-jay]

He didn't need to know where her head was. If you're shooting at somebody in such a small confined space, who's already down, and you keep shooting, one or more of those shots will be fatal. We've been told that any of the shots that hit her would have been fatal without rapid medical aid, because of the nature of the bullets. He just shot until she stopped screaming.

You're right, but I think it's possibly Viper's post which should've had that reply, because I think steveml was basically saying the same as you (in response to some of Viper's posts)

 

[Noisy Fan]

Yeah, because of course with Oscar, he hears the bathroom window sliding open but doesn't hear the toilet door shutting or the key turning in the lock, of course he doesn't.

He only hears what occurs after the fans are off and brought in and the room is closed up and the world around him is now quiet.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Yepp. Below link there is a mention about 'the engagement party 'where Reeva and OP argued because of jealousy and had to leave early .. FG was Reeva's former BF before OP..

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/hougaard-denies-sms-to-reeva-1.1583956

Hougaard had, however, seen her about two weeks before her death, at a mutual friend’s engagement dinner, he told the magazine.

“If I had wanted to be in a serious relationship we would probably still be dating,” he said.

Both men had also gone out with Melissa Rom.

We didn’t really chat. I respected what they had going and obviously if you’re the ex and the person you’re speaking to is now their chick, they’re going to feel … not threatened – it’s just not nice, you know.”

Didn't really chat.. does that mean no chat but just a tweet?

A tweet from him is in the link below 10:59 pm 13 feb 2013

http://deadspin.com/5984927/a-text-...e-at-the-center-of-the-pistorius-shooting/all

 

[BabaJ]

I don't really understand your scenario I guess. It's so dark in the bedroom he can't see - danger is imminent (he didn't know they were in the toilet room until he had a visual of the bathroom).

Just wondering, was there any light in the bathroom? How come he could see in the bathroom - street light? Are there any street lights close to his house? I assume there were no blinds on the bathroom window, is that correct?

 

[minor4th]

Just wondering, was there any light in the bathroom? How come he could see in the bathroom - street light? Are there any street lights close to his house? I assume there were no blinds on the bathroom window, is that correct?

There were street lights and one of the windows was supposedly open so it seems like there would be light coming in the bathroom

 

[Noisy Fan]

Perhaps the defense's story (OP's story) is being missed then. The toilet room door clearly is already at play as that is where the "intruder" was. There is no "possibly" in the defense story (OP's) story.

If it is asked of us to play along and see things a certain way, can we at least make sure that the story is what the defense/OP is claiming?

They were in the bathroom. They came in through the bathroom window. You know the song. Only way in. Where they ended up cannot negate where they must have been. The bathroom is one corner away from the bed.

 

[soozieqtips]

You make jokes while one woman is dead and another person faces a minimum of 25 years in prison?

The other person faces a prison sentence because the woman is dead. He killed her. She is dead as a direct result of his recklessness. Viper has never been disrespectful or made 'jokes' about Reeva at any time, and if OP comes in for some criticism, well, so be it. A woman's life was ended brutally... by him.. in, of all places, a toilet. What memories for Reeva's family to live with, and all so avoidable if OP had applied some common sense IF his imaginary intruder story was true. But he didn't and Reeva's dead. Because of him and his utter utter irresponsibility.

 

[jay-jay]

That's certainly not a fact. It's a theory put to the court by the PT via Mangena.

It's more than just a theory .. ballistics is quite a precise science, and Mangena is a ballistics expert. I doubt very much he was wrong in what he was saying.

 

[Viper]

If you gave that warning and they did not immediately surrender would you hesitate shooting them if you thought they were coming at you?

Well actually let's follow the script here, ok? If I gave that warning while I was charging / running to engage them, with my lethal weapon locked and loaded, ready to fire, I'd be pretty d@mn upset to find the bathroom proper totally empty with no one there! I'd check out the window, don't see anything. I hear a noise of the WC door handle (but we know it isn't turning because it is locked, ok?) so I would call out again to try to identify if there is someone in the WC. I might do that 2-3 times more before I stop acting stupid and paranoid and either open the door, or leave the bathroom and go downstairs with Reeva to wait for Security to mess with my paranoia and the "door". Probably grab a bourbon to chill myself out while I'm in the kitchen too! So to answer your question about would I hesitate, "Yes, a thousand times yes!" No sense wasting a perfectly good door, marble WC, and my expensive ammunition either.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Noisy Fan - I appreciate your presentation of the defense case and attempt to get people to look at this from a different perspective. I don't think it's really being thought through all the way through if anyone thinks they would hit the alarm button and wait for security when an armed burglar is a few feet away and you have a gun that you can use to stop them from hurting you and your girlfriend.

But that's just me ....

Yep ... it was really just one corner away. 5 seconds max.

If I find him guilty, I at least want to make an effort to understand his version.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Well actually let's follow the script here, ok? If I gave that warning while I was charging / running to engage them, with my lethal weapon locked and loaded, ready to fire, I'd be pretty d@mn upset to find the bathroom proper totally empty with no one there! I'd check out the window, don't see anything. I hear a noise of the WC door handle (but we know it isn't turning because it is locked, ok?) so I would call out again to try to identify if there is someone in the WC. I might do that 2-3 times more before I stop acting stupid and paranoid and either open the door, or leave the bathroom and go downstairs with Reeva to wait for Security to mess with my paranoia and the "door". Probably grab a bourbon to chill myself out while I'm in the kitchen too! So to answer your question about would I hesitate, "Yes, a thousand times yes!" No sense wasting a perfectly good door, marble WC, and my expensive ammunition either.

How do you know it is locked?

 

[soozieqtips]

If you gave that warning and they did not immediately surrender would you hesitate shooting them if you thought they were coming at you?

But the 'intruder' was in the toilet behind the door, so no one was coming at him. And it doesn't matter what he 'thought' - the fact is no one was coming at him because they were in another room behind a door. As someone posted a while back, if you could just kill someone because you 'thought' they might come at you (while having seen no evidence of it at all) then plenty more husbands and wives could be murdered every night while taking a pee.

Imagine OP had murdered your own daughter under the same circumstances. Would you think he was entitled to kill her because he 'thought' she was an intruder, despite never having seen the intruder, and knowing that he'd just spoken to her moments ago? What about if your daughter had told you they'd been fighting a lot... and you heard those messages read out in court about he sometimes scared her. Would you still think he was justified in murdering her all based on a 'thought'?

 

[jay-jay]

:goodpost:

The trajectory shows that the gun went from a slightly downward position towards the toilet in the first shot. Reeva's body was standing parallel with OP's, his first shot seems an attempt to hit her center mass in the stomach, he hits her hip instead and now she is screaming bloody murder as she falls!

Second shot was up quite a bit and had moved over to the right. He fired upwards, he did not know yet that she had fallen or was falling down when he fired this shot, but it was another attempt at hitting her center mass. This is the shot that missed Reeva; one can only attribute her falling motion to this miss.

The third and fourth shots have then gone back to the downward angle and have moved over to the right even more and are further down on the door. It is obvious to OP now by her screams that Reeva is on the floor so he points downward and moves himself to the right to be able to aim at where he believes her voice is coming from; he is accurate in a shot to the arm that Reeva had up near her neck area and he is accurate with a shot to Reeva's head.

The screaming stops. OP stops firing anymore bullets at her because he is satisfied now that she is dead.

Now that one I can go along with .. as it involves no looking underneath the toilet door! :crazy:

 

[steveml]

Agree with what you say about not being able to use a spare key if there is already a key in the lock on the other side of the door.

As regards the key on the inside of the door apparently being found on the ground, some of us disputed this the other day and explained how .. when a key like that is turned in a keyhole to lock it, that it would be very difficult for it to just fall out (i.e from the cricket bat bashing). In the unlocked position .. yes .. it would fall out easily .. but not in the locked position (and it had to have been in the locked position, otherwise the cricket bat bashing would've have been required, as per OP's version).

Fair point,

There are a lot of gaps to be filled once OP takes the stand. I don't necessarily mean gaps as in making something up (that's for everyone else to decide), but Nel will be ensuring that these missing pieces are filled.

I think some have been surprised that the details in the statement seem to be sketchy. This is not unusual. Guilty or innocent you don't present the prosecution with any more information than necessary. Their job is to fill in the missing pieces themselves, as they are building and presenting a case against you. This is the legal procedure and OP would have been strongly advised to follow it by his lawyers. OP has actually given more information than would normally be expected, as he wouldn't have got bail otherwise.

As for the bathroom door key situation above, OP may well take the stand and say ''I bashed the door to get the key on the other side. I then took it out of the lock on the other side and it must have dropped to the floor. I then picked it up off the floor'. There will be plenty of questions from Nel that will lead to OP telling us lots of additional information that isn't included on his statement. OP won't just be reciting the lines from this.

This same process will apply to almost every detail in OP's statement. That is more or less guaranteed. Nel will be waiting to pounce if he makes a mistake, or changes his story.

 

[Viper]

But you changed the scenario. The intruder is not unarmed or unthreatening. He's armed and he's about to enter the room shooting.

BIB. No, Mr Intruder was never armed or threatening in any way; that was all a figment of OPs imagination and he never saw any of that. OP handled the situation very badly by murdering Mr. Intruder, that is against the law.

I realize some have an obscure legal theory that OP can get off on this, and that's fine; I don't believe that for a moment and I prefer to maintain my own beliefs about that subject.

 

[Duchy]

Idk, if it was rape I'd think that'd be a red flag...

I think the state was just saying, basically what you were saying earlier: why would he be looking at minutes after his beautiful girlfriend walked into the door if this was really a loving relationship?

And...not sure how gay can be worse than rape/abuse ?[/QUOTE]

BIB Simple. Rape/abuse is something that some heterosexual couples act out in fantasies in the privacy of their own bedrooms, but is just a fantasy and they don't hurt one another. So if it were those types of that OP was watching he could explain that to the Court, the State would have nothing to say really. But if OP was in to homosexual the State could show that OP really did not consider Reeva to be "the love of his life."

Rape/abuse didn't sound like the kind of thing Reeva would be into if she was campaigning against abusive relationships. It is possible she knew about Oscar watching - maybe he wanted to play out things in the bedroom and maybe this is what she was referring to when she said she wasn't a stripper or a ho. Imagine if she was anti-, looking forward to Valentines, and caught him watching whist she was there. Might have sparked a row. Maybe he did it to annoy her if he was in a mood. Remember that some women are exploited to make movies.

 

[soozieqtips]

I think some have been surprised that the details in the statement seem to be sketchy. This is not unusual. Guilty or innocent
you don't present the prosecution with any more information than necessary.

BIB - from his affidavit:

My prosthetic legs were off.
We were deeply in love and I could not be happier.

BIB - more information than necessary and totally irrelevant to the events of that night. But he obviously felt the need to add it... for some reason.

 

[Noisy Fan]

But the 'intruder' was in the toilet behind the door, so no one was coming at him. And it doesn't matter what he 'thought' - the fact is no one was coming at him because they were in another room behind a door. As someone posted a while back, if you could just kill someone because you 'thought' they might come at you (while having seen no evidence of it at all) then plenty more husbands and wives could be murdered every night while taking a pee.

Imagine OP had murdered your own daughter under the same circumstances. Would you think he was entitled to kill her because he 'thought' she was an intruder, despite never having seen the intruder, and knowing that he'd just spoken to her moments ago? What about if your daughter had told you they'd been fighting a lot... and you heard those messages read out in court about he sometimes scared her. Would you still think he was justified in murdering her all based on a 'thought'?

If it was my daughter, I would want to know exactly what he "thought" was going on. I would want to walk down that hall in his shoes, experience what he says he experienced and then after understanding it as completely as I could, then comparing that with what he is about to testify to, make as objective a judgment as possible in a very difficult case.

 

[jay-jay]

Been busy this evening so have a lot to catch up on but thought i would just throw this thought into the pot again
We are supposed to believe that Reeva didn't answer when OP shouted for her to call the police the first time because she had misunderstood and thought there was in fact an intruder in the house .
So with that in mind why on earth would she be moving around and making a noise that he could hear her when he arrived at the entrance to the bathroom .
A terrified woman would be as quiet as a mouse and would certainly not be moving . After hearing footsteps heading towards her she would just be listening
Bearing in mind how bad his hearing is when it suits him it is amazing that he heard someone trying their very hardest to be quiet .
JMOO

Also .. (in OP's version) did OP not stop to think just how ***** scared Reeva would be when all of a sudden, while she is laying in bed sleeping (as he apparently thought she was) or even in a half sleep (as he, in his second version of events, he reckons he spoke to her briefly) .. a whole set of shots rang out from the bathroom area? Seriously, it would've been enough to give you heart failure. I remember once, staying in a hotel .. and I was fast asleep in the middle of the night when the fire alarm suddenly went off .. my god it gave me one hell of a fright, and I was hardly able to move simply because I felt so ill by having been woken so suddenly by such a loud and alarming sound. If his version is correct, then he had absolutely no thought whatsoever for her .. ringing out a whole load of shots like that, and not even rousing her first to tell her to get herself to a safe place .. I seriously don't believe that anyone would not bother to do that.

 

[steveml]

BIB - from his affidavit:

My prosthetic legs were off.
We were deeply in love and I could not be happier.

BIB - more information than necessary and totally irrelevant to the events of that night. But he obviously felt the need to add it... for some reason.

You've clarified my point there. He didn't have to say that, but look what happened as a result, pages and pages of messages are investigated to try and discredit the fact. I'm not saying they wouldn't have done this anyway, but you've highlighted a good example.

Best policy is always say as little as possible. Prosecutors will have a field day wherever possible, they don't need a helping hand.