Trial Discussion Thread #17

[jay-jay]

I also never cease to be amazed at how some (not all) girls who have been in an abusive relationship seem to end up in the same situation again.

One in four women will end up in an abusive relationship at some point in their lives (in the UK) .. so I think that points to one heck of a lot of abusive men out there ... it is basically just the luck of the draw whether you end up in one or not, or whether you end up in further abusive relationships. I never in a million years thought that I would end up in one .. I've never been one to stand any nonsense from anyone, and yet it still happened to me at the age of 46.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Just changing the subject here .
As it seems both iPads were OP's can we presume that Reeva's home computer or IPad ( assuming she had one ) would have been checked and had nothing untoward on it as we have not had anything submitted in evidence apart from the iPads ?

 

[MeeBee]

I can see what you are getting at but I think it depends from where one is coming from. I happen to think irritability and moodiness are the first signs things are wrong with a relationship. Particularly when someone is also being asked to change the way they are. I would be very wary of someone who got angry, picky, moody, selfish at only 8 weeks into a relationship. I also never cease to be amazed at how some (not all) girls who have been in an abusive relationship seem to end up in the same situation again.

I happen to think some people are just moody and irritable.

 

[jay-jay]

Idk, if it was rape I'd think that'd be a red flag...

I think the state was just saying, basically what you were saying earlier: why would he be looking at minutes after his beautiful girlfriend walked into the door if this was really a loving relationship?

And...not sure how gay can be worse than rape/abuse ?[

BIB Simple. Rape/abuse is something that some heterosexual couples act out in fantasies in the privacy of their own bedrooms, but is just a fantasy and they don't hurt one another. So if it were those types of that OP was watching he could explain that to the Court, the State would have nothing to say really. But if OP was in to homosexual the State could show that OP really did not consider Reeva to be "the love of his life."

I'm starting to wonder if OP might have started wanting Reeva to do something she didn't want to do while they were being intimate .. i.e. kinky stuff. Am just wondering if that is what her 'I wasn't a stripper or a HO' comment may relate to. My ex started saying stuff to me about things that clearly turned him on, and he wanted me to dress/do stuff that was stuff that I personally classed as being slutty and tarty .. and I remember saying to him "I'm not a tart".

 

[steveml]

Just changing the subject here .
As it seems both iPads were OP's can we presume that Reeva's home computer or IPad ( assuming she had one ) would have been checked and had nothing untoward on it as we have not had anything submitted in evidence apart from the iPads ?

It's likely the state would have asked Reeva's family for access to anything which may be of use in the case. I'm sure the family will have assisted in any way possible.

 

[BritsKate]

No problem Kate,

I understand that it's a real emotive subject for many. I admit it's not an area I'm over-familiar with, and for that reason people needn't feel my view is at all valid. It really is just my opinion on the text content of a WhatsApp message

Not my intention to invalidate - just a different view, being far too familiar. If it were an isolated text, without knowing everything else we do, I might agree.
I never mean to dismiss people's opinions who haven't lived with intimate partner violence - it really is a club no one wants to be a member of - I just want people to know what it looks like, begins as, evolves into...especially emotional abuse since it's very often minimized when in reality, it's often the gateway for much worse (and sometimes fatal) violence.

My apologies though if I unintentionally offended.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It's likely the state would have asked Reeva's family for access to anything which may be of use in the case. I'm sure the family will have assisted in any way possible.

So if we assume there was one and the prosecution didn't find anything worth bringing up at the trial would the defence have been given access to it ?
Or does that only apply if they are submitting something into court ?
TIA
Just adding here . The reason I am asking is that it would seem really odd for her not to have one somewhere and would love to know for that reason just in case it could have been removed from the scene of the crime .

 

[steveml]

Not my intention to invalidate - just a different view, being far too familiar. If it were an isolated text, without knowing everything else we do, I might agree.
I never mean to dismiss people's opinions who haven't lived with intimate partner violence - it really is a club no one wants to be a member of - I just want people to know what it looks like, begins as, evolves into...especially emotional abuse since it's very often minimized when in reality, it's often the gateway for much worse (and sometimes fatal) violence.

My apologies though if I unintentionally offended.

No apology necessary Kate, there was no offense taken, I need to learn about things as much as anybody else.
Even from the small selection of people on this forum, it's been an eye-opener to me how common this problem is. :smile:

 

[Viper]

So if we assume there was one and the prosecution didn't find anything worth bringing up at the trial would the defence have been given access to it ?
Or does that only apply if they are submitting something into court ?
TIA

The State has to give the DT all evidence that they gather, not just the evidence that they intend to use. But note that the state has put specific evidence (photos, phone records, computer iPad text messages and WhatsApp messages) in to evidence now, but they have not gone through every piece of that evidence and do not have to, the State can and is waiting for OP to take the stand, then more of the evidence will be used in his cross examination. In fewer words, there are more texts from the phone itself and more texts from the WhatsApp application that will be presented to OP by both Roux and Nel next week.

 

[steveml]

So if we assume there was one and the prosecution didn't find anything worth bringing up at the trial would the defence have been given access to it ?
Or does that only apply if they are submitting something into court ?
TIA

The defense could have access to it, although they get to see all the evidence that will be submitted before trial, and will do their own tests if they feel it necessary. As they know it hasn't been submitted, and being aware of the nature of OP's messages, they may feel that there is no reason to request this.

There is always a balance of how much evidence should be introduced. If evidence doesn't carry a lot of weight, they may choose to ignore it and concentrate on the important stuff.

Too much non-essential evidence can be quite damaging to the case, in the same way that too many non-important witnesses can. It's mainly about keeping focus on the crucial parts.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This is a fantastic recreation. That's exactly what I've been thinking but have not been able to properly verbalize it. I have thought that the locking of the door is what caused him to shoot, OP thinking the person was coming out. The pause could be the initial shot, OP listening and waiting, hearing more movement and firing again until there's no more movement.

To accept this explanation would have to be to accept that the shot "intruder" made no noise after the first shot (which we know was not to the head). I cannot accept that. IMO OP had to know whether it was male or female after the first shot. A girl's scream, in particular, in Reeva's voice should have told him to stop firing. Even had there been an intruder and a male voice he would have known the person had been shot and yet he, after a short pause, continued to shoot. Those extra shots were intentional and intended to kill whoever was behind the door.

Whether you think he did or did not know it was Reeva, it is, under SA Law, murder. Had he stopped firing, Reeva would have been gravely injured (and may have died if she had not received medical intervention quickly) and he would have been charged with GBH (or whatever SA Law is). BUT there is no way he could stop as his future would have been ruined and IMO that meant more to him than Reeva or any other girlfriend he has had.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The defense could have access to it, although they get to see all the evidence that will be submitted before trial, and will do their own tests if they feel it necessary. As they know it hasn't been submitted, and being aware of the nature of OP's messages, they may feel that there is no reason to request this.

There is always a balance of how much evidence should be introduced. If evidence doesn't carry a lot of weight, they may choose to ignore it and concentrate on the important stuff.

Too much non-essential evidence can be quite damaging to the case, in the same way that too many non-important witnesses can. It's mainly about keeping focus on the crucial parts.

Thanks .
I would just be interested to know whether one was found .
Because if not it would seem really odd to me .
Guess we may never know that

 

[DebinGA]

I'd love to read OP's msgs before his big gun buy that was cancelled after the killing. Ditto msgs to potential RS replacements during the brief time they were together and deeply in love.

 

[MeeBee]

To accept this explanation would have to be to accept that the shot "intruder" made no noise after the first shot (which we know was not to the head). I cannot accept that. IMO OP had to know whether it was male or female after the first shot. A girl's scream, in particular, in Reeva's voice should have told him to stop firing. Even had there been an intruder and a male voice he would have known the person had been shot and yet he, after a short pause, continued to shoot. Those extra shots were intentional and intended to kill whoever was behind the door.

Whether you think he did or did not know it was Reeva, it is, under SA Law, murder. Had he stopped firing, Reeva would have been gravely injured (and may have died if she had not received medical intervention quickly) and he would have been charged with GBH (or whatever SA Law is). BUT there is no way he could stop as his future would have been ruined and IMO that meant more to him than Reeva or any other girlfriend he has had.

I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that Reeva was too in shock and it happened so quick that she didn't have to time scream or react.

BBM: I think under SA law it is at the judge's discretion to decide, if she accepts his version, whether or not he acted as a reasonable person. I have posted the law and its interpretation before and that's basically what it said. Perhaps a lawyer can read it better.

 

[minor4th]

There is so, so much more available in the media than texts alone to suggest Oscar's relationship with Reeva could be emotionally abusive. Reeva's words I find most powerful - but put into context with everything we've learned about Oscar (not necessarily testified to) - it's difficult for me to dismiss the texts as simply the down side of an otherwise normal relationship.

But even if one can conclude that Oscar was emotionally abusive or a bully, does that really give us any better insight into what happened on Feb 13? I don't think it does.

 

[jay-jay]

Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
To accept this explanation would have to be to accept that the shot "intruder" made no noise after the first shot (which we know was not to the head). I cannot accept that.

I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that Reeva was too in shock and it happened so quick that she didn't have to time scream or react.

I'm not sure if she would actually have screamed as such or not, at the point she was hit in the hip by the first bullet .. but she most definitely would've given out a noise, just automatically, from being 'winded' .. and that noise would've identified it as being her (during that pause between that first shot and the remaining three). I reckon she probably did scream out, but even if she didn't, she would've made that 'winded' sound. If OP could hear the bathroom window being slid open from where he was standing just inside his balcony, with a fan going right up close to him, then he would also have heard Reeva being winded (and it would sound like a woman being winded, not a man .. it would have parts of her own voice that would've been recognisable to him).

 

[jay-jay]

But even if one can conclude that Oscar was emotionally abusive or a bully, does that really give us any better insight into what happened on Feb 13? I don't think it does.

It gives us a better probability of what might have happened, a very big one!

 

[BritsKate]

But even if one can conclude that Oscar was emotionally abusive or a bully, does that really give us any better insight into what happened on Feb 13? I don't think it does.

None of us will ever truly know what happened but I do think it makes for a much stronger argument that this is an intimate partner homicide. (20-30% of which have no history of previous physical violence.)

 

[james83]

It reached 91.4F in Pretoria on Feb 13, 2013. At 8pm it was 75F. At 2am it was in the 62F range. Pretoria is at an elevation of 4500' above sea level.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...retoria&req_state=&req_statename=South+Africa

The air conditioning in Oscars home was broken. The use of fans to cool the house and being placed outside on the deck so they would not be noisy, makes perfect sense.

Retiring to bed at 10pm does not preclude minor activity by either party between that time and 3am.

The house cooled down and the ambient noise level in the neighbourhood dropped between 10pm and 3am. It is most likely that they woke up slightly chilly (outside temperature was 62F at 3am) and aware of the noisy fan (ambient noise level was now lower than at 10pm). That big fan on the stand looks like it could move a lot of air and my experience with that type of fan is that they are noisy.


Being chilly increases the need to pee and slipping quietly to the toilet while Oscar is bringing in the fans seems in context with normal human behaviour. (Also possibly using phone light to navigate trip). Oscar needed to wait for the fans to power down before moving them. Does he have to hurry in the middle of the night?


It has been confirmed (phone data and other) that Oscar had a bad right shoulder. Roux says he had a medical patch on the night in question. It is probable he slept on the left side of the bed so he could face Reeva. Door to deck was open with noisy fans going. At some time before he brought the fans in he spoke to Reeva. Possibly since Reeva was on the window side closest to the fans now blowing in 62F air, she might have mentioned to him that she was cold and ask him to close up the room. If the bathroom window was closed then the bathroom would still be muggy and hot compared to the bedroom.

Sunrise was at around 5:51 AM on Feb. 14 2013 so closing the curtains and drapes to keep the room dark for sleeping is also normal. Doors were closed because it was now chilly in the room.

This is based on the defence model and is not necessarily what really happened but rather an attempt to understand if the model is workable.

:coldout:

So reeva woke up cold, went to the bathroom which felt warm and opened a window knowing she'd only be in there for about 30 seconds?. No way.
If you wake up cold you would be grateful to get into a warm room wouldnt you?, so why open a window?.

 

[Noisy Fan]

So reeva woke up cold, went to the bathroom which felt warm and opened a window knowing she'd only be in there for about 30 seconds?. No way.
If you wake up cold you would be grateful to get into a warm room wouldnt you?, so why open a window?.

She knew Oscar was closing up the bedroom. Perhaps she reasoned that if she did not open the window now when the outside air was still cool, the bathroom would remain muggy all the following day.