Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[Hatfield]

I think Mrs Burger was the only one who said there was a pause

One reason there may be a slight pause is because with a semi-auto it can also be a double-action firearm. Im not sure if his semi-auto had double-action but if it did then it means he may have just pulled the trigger to the hammer back and fire instead of manually pulling the hammer back.

Then after firing that first shot, the semi-auto mechanism worked and the hammer is automatically back and the next shell is automatically in place. For some users of semi-autos that have double-action they may pause after the first shot to glance at the gun to make sure all is set and then he would know that the next 3 shots is all automatically.

With semi-autos, it is just a slight difference in the way you shoot the first shot becaause one way or another you have to get that hammer back. You either manually it OR with double-action you can pull the trigger that the hammer and fires. This slight difference in getting that first shot off may cause users to pause after the first shot.

 

[aoibhinn]

(Response to my question as to why Reeva had not phoned the police as Oscar had requested)

That is a possibility, but I've just run through Pistorius' testimony and it seems he was at pains to point out how slowly he approached the danger in the bathroom once he screamed for Reeva to phone the police.

I've taken the liberty of sketching out the relevant sections of his testimony below:

EVIDENCE IN CHIEF (session 3, Tuesday 8th April) - ​

1.16.20 –​

“Just before I got to the passage I remember slowing down.”​

1.17.15 –​

“As I entered the passage where the closet is to the bathroom, it was at that point that I was overcome with fear and started screaming and shouting for the intruders to get out of my house. I shouted for Reeva to get on the floor, I shouted for her to phone the police.”​

1.18.00 -​

“I slowly made my way down the passage”​

EVIDENCE IN CHIEF (Session 4, Tuesday 8th April​

3.23 –​

“I didn’t have as much mobility on the tiled surfaces.”​

4.20 –​

“As I slowly peered into the bathroom I could see that the window was open”​

4.40 –​

“I was leaning, slowly scuffling, my back against the wall”

He then describes how he peered round the corner to look at the shower and upon realising there is no-one there backs up against the far wall…​

6.35 –​

“At this point I started screaming again for Reeva to call the police….. I stood there for some time. I’m not sure how long.... I just stayed where I was and carried on screaming...didn’t know where to point the gun…and then I heard a noise from inside the toilet….before I knew it I had fired four shots at the door."​

CROSS EXAM (Friday, 11th April)​

2.30.05 -​

“I rushed towards where the passage and bedroom meet my lady, just before you enter the passage.”​

2.31.15 -​

PT – “And that’s why you stormed, you wanted to shoot”
OP – “We are talking about two separate times in the evening, I didn’t storm to the bathroom my lady, I ran to where the passage began and then I walked extremely slowly and cautiously to just before the corner where the bathroom passage is.”​

2.34.35 -​

OP: “I started screaming and shouting my lady as I entered the passageway.”
PT: “And what did you shout and scream?”
OP: “I screamed for the persons to get out of my house, I screamed for Reeva to phone the police, I repeated it several times.”​

2.48.35 -​

“…I didn’t form an arc and trim the wall, I walked all the way down the closet to the last cupboard…I slowly moved forward along the carpet to where the tiles begin.​

____________________________________________

So on his evidence we know he slowed down to an extremely slow pace from just before the passage. That he then shouted at Steenkamp to call the police at that point. He then continued extremely slowly down the passage screaming ‘several times’ - each of which would have taken at least some portion of time. He then must have taken a moment to become quiet and to peer into the bathroom passage. After discovering it to be clear he then slowly edged to the last closet, moved forward (slowly scuffled) down the bathroom corridor with decreased mobility and peered into the bathroom. He then took a moment to note the absence of enemies, an open window and a closed bathroom door. He then backs up to the wall where he stays for some time, and again starts screaming for Steenkamp to phone the police.

To me this seems ample time for a person in the toilet to comply with his initial request to phone the police.

Links

Evidence in chief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMdyuXfFUg (session 3 Tuesday 8th April)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmadaSpdQdI (session 4 Tuesday 8th April)


X Exam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvvA4cL5Zc (Friday 11th

Bravo, for real. Thanks for transcribing all of that. I knew that he'd mentioned slowing down, pausing at the end of the passage but I had no idea how often it figured into his testimony.

I have terrible difficulty believing that Reeva never once spoke to him from the toilet that night.

 

[Mr Ron]

Which points to OP's version of yelling to Reeva to phone police is a lie OR Reeva never had the phone with her in the toilet room like OP claimed she did which is also then a lie.

MOO

In my mind it certainly adds another element of doubt to the probability of his version being accurate. I wish there had been some clarification of the matter in court.

It is possible that his version is entirely untrue, but it is also possible that he is simply introducing a fictional element of caution to his approach to the bathroom because he doesn't want to come across as a gung-ho gangster champing at the bit to use his black talons on evil intruders.

 

[BritsKate]

Molly, good point. I think after being cocksure that OP was guilty, he was starting to come to the horrible (well, horrible for him) realisation that he might be telling the truth. That's he began to talk about negligence, and, in the end, instead of saying "You say, x, y, z happaned," he kept saying "what happened next."

Nel has come to the horrible realisation that Oscar was telling the truth despite Oscar's testimony, the entirety of the State's case, and the glaring inconsistencies in the defense case one must accept to also deem Oscar honest?

Okay, then.

 

[TipDog]

<snipped for brevity, no disrespect intended!>

2.30.05 -​

“I rushed towards where the passage and bedroom meet my lady, just before you enter the passage.”​

OP – “We are talking about two separate times in the evening, I didn’t storm to the bathroom my lady, I ran to where the passage began and then I walked extremely slowly and cautiously to just before the corner where the bathroom passage is.”[/INDENT][/INDENT]


____________________________________________

So on his evidence we know he slowed down to an extremely slow pace from just before the passage. That he then shouted at Steenkamp to call the police at that point. He then continued extremely slowly down the passage screaming ‘several times’ - each of which would have taken at least some portion of time. He then must have taken a moment to become quiet and to peer into the bathroom passage. After discovering it to be clear he then slowly edged to the last closet, moved forward (slowly scuffled) down the bathroom corridor with decreased mobility and peered into the bathroom. He then took a moment to note the absence of enemies, an open window and a closed bathroom door. He then backs up to the wall where he stays for some time, and again starts screaming for Steenkamp to phone the police.

To me this seems ample time for a person in the toilet to comply with his initial request to phone the police.



X Exam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvvA4cL5Zc (Friday 11th

BIB 1-2

I know, here I go with semantics again, but how in the world does he rush and run on his stumps yet still feel so terribly vulnerable on them due to limited mobility? His duplicity is galling to me.

BIB 3

Thank you! Agree, agree, agree. And RS would have called the police and it would have been on her phone if OP's version were true.

 

[emmavoberry]

An epiphany about OP, and what is at the root of everybody's sense that he murdered Reeva...

OP's own story is one of irrational, emotion based reactions triggered by the most insignificant event. The sound of a woman using the bathroom resulted in him grabbing his gun and shoot her four times through the toilet door.

That's OP's own version.

So knowing that in OP's own version he thinks it reasonable to kill his girlfriend because she got up to use the bathroom without telling him, it's not a far stretch to believe he could have done the same thing if Reeva would have triggered him in some inconsequential way.

Maybe she touched his neck. Maybe she wasn't giving him enough sympathy that he wanted or needed from whatever event happened that day.

Maybe she told him to man the f*** up and stop feeling sorry for himself.

Who knows?

The point is if OP thinks his version is even close to reasonable, he's describing himself as somebody who would take an emotion based, irrational action - like intentionally killing Reeva because of some inconsequential thing she said or did that set him off.

Excellent post! TOP RATE!

In any case, he's the very sort of man who should never have kept a gun in the house. Given his previous record, shot a dog HE injured, shot off gun in crowded restaurant, shot gun through sun roof, grabbed gun in reaction to dryer rumbling despite highest security, he's PROVEN hair-trigger, and possibly borderline paranoid, as evidenced by his intent to purchase an arsenal...

Even if I were not to subscribe to the notion that he shot Reeva with ANY degree of lethal intention, he reminds me of people who keep driving drunk even when they've had accidents before (hit a dog, destroyed property, hit and run--got away with it or didn't). Now, finally they kill someone, but insist they should not be held responsible.

OP deserves serious punishment. He continued to handle a lethal weapon despite every warning that he wasn't responsible enough to. We hold that drunken driver responsible, and sentence accordingly, when, yet again, failing to learn her lesson, she drives drunk and this time kills.

Analogously, OP deserves to be declared "out" on this strike. The drunk driver could have taken a taxi, should have chosen a designated driver before sitting down to drink. OP could have pressed the panic button, got himself and Reeva out of harm's way, yelled for help from the balcony, fired a warning shot. The drunk driver did not have to get behind the wheel. NO MATTER WHAT OP THOUGHT, he did not have to fire his weapon.

If he did order the intruder/s out of his house, and heard sounds of intruder coming out of stall, why not let him "get the F-out?" Or hold him at gunpoint until police come?

He's got an answer for why he did not avail himself of other options: not enough time to think, cops useless thieves, had to protect Reeva ...

Sometimes I think OP tailors his testimony to questions raised on this board!

Okay. I am being histrionic and paranoid. Not to say self-important, but only on behalf of the terrific points made here.

But back to Natasha's more than nifty post, by his own account, he reacts irrationally, impulsively, out of all proportion to external reality, and without provocation (what did the dog or dog's guardian do to him? what did the cop do in stopping him that should have angered him enough to shoot off a gun, endangering others?).

Let his sentence drive the lesson home this time. Nothing yet has done it.

 

[BlueShoe]

More than one said a pause, but not much of a pause. He had them speak it out --bang pause bang bang bang.

More than one said the screaming stopped shortly after the 'gunshots.' I noticed that because that was definitely not Reeva. So, maybe they were mistaken, but they did say that.

If that is Oscar, he is screaming after he shoots, all the way through to finally breaking open the closet. Meaning, what they thought was 'gunshots' was really the cricket bat sounding like gunshots.

I don't think it was Oscar screaming, but that is just my opinion. I've wondered, though, if when someone is shot in mid-scream, can that scream continue for a second or so, even if the person dies with that shot? I'm thinking in terms of a reflex continuing, kind of like a chicken that keeps running when it's head is cut off (sorry for the gory analogy). Sure, Reeva could not scream after the head-shot, but if she was already mid-scream, could that scream continue until its natural end?

 

[liesbeth]

Really they don't? Wonder why?

Re the crime of passion mentioned above...

We follow, at least in part, Roman-Dutch law.

Found this.

Only in France is a crime of passionnel, or crime of passion, a legally recognised defense. In South Africa, a murder committed in a moment of passion is seen as a mitigating circumstance and does not merit special treatment. If the court accepts the view that the crime was committed during a moment of passion, then this usually means that an act of murder is reduced to a lesser charge, such as culpable homicide.

http://www.africacrime-mystery.co.za/books/fsac/chp26.htm

 

[Really?]

I agree, with one exception.
Pedophiles. I couldn't care less what happens to them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

woot....:rocker:

 

[Hatfield]

Bravo, for real. Thanks for transcribing all of that. I knew that he'd mentioned slowing down, pausing at the end of the passage but I had no idea how often it figured into his testimony.

I have terrible difficulty believing that Reeva never once spoke to him from the toilet that night.

If he was truly screaming at her to call police then she would have answered. If she did not respond then that is all the more reason he should not have fired into that bathroom because he had not confirmed her whereabouts.

The only screaming he was doing was during the fight with her as he chased her into the bathroom.

 

[Cherwell]

More than one said a pause, but not much of a pause. He had them speak it out --bang pause bang bang bang.

More than one said the screaming stopped shortly after the 'gunshots.' I noticed that because that was definitely not Reeva. So, maybe they were mistaken, but they did say that.

If that is Oscar, he is screaming after he shoots, all the way through to finally breaking open the closet. Meaning, what they thought was 'gunshots' was really the cricket bat sounding like gunshots.

IIRC Mrs Burger et al said that the screaming died away with the gunshots, or words to that effect. The impression I got was that it was like an echo, not that the actual screaming continued for any length of time. As the sound of the shot would travel faster than the human voice, it seems feasible to me. It doesn't mean it can't have been Reeva's voice.

 

[minor4th]

One reason there may be a slight pause is because with a semi-auto it can also be a double-action firearm. Im not sure if his semi-auto had double-action but if it did then it means he may have just pulled the trigger to the hammer back and fire instead of manually pulling the hammer back.

Then after firing that first shot, the semi-auto mechanism worked and the hammer is automatically back and the next shell is automatically in place. For some users of semi-autos that have double-action they may pause after the first shot to glance at the gun to make sure all is set and then he would know that the next 3 shots is all automatically.

With semi-autos, it is just a slight difference in the way you shoot the first shot becaause one way or another you have to get that hammer back. You either manually it OR with double-action you can pull the trigger that the hammer and fires. This slight difference in getting that first shot off may cause users to pause after the first shot.

I believe the glock is a double action

 

[Really?]

I'm driving to Florida for a weeks vacation , then on to New Orleans Louisiana for the jazz festival the following week.

So nice that the trial was put on hold :giggle:

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

nice plans......:Banane08:....have fun.

 

[James50]

~snipped~

BBM - If she'd heard him screaming and shooting while she was supposed to still be in bed... then why didn't he think she might have left the house in panic and called for help once outside? And not only that, but having feared there could have been more than one intruder, his concern about that suddenly disappeared after the shooting. So how did he know there weren't any others lying in wait to kill him and steal a watch? And why oh why didn't he think that the most obvious reason for Reeva not being in the bedroom was because she'd left to call the police from a safe place. The bedroom door was the closest exit, remember? He feels all around the curtains for her (allegedly) but doesn't think the most obvious thing - that she's left... via the closest exit. He's a nasty piece of work and I hope he gets severely punished for what he did. Your post about Reeva's family getting to be with her in the afterlife (because she's not really 'gone') doesn't lessen his crime, and most certainly won't make Reeva's family feel better about it. He belongs somewhere away from society with a team of psychiatrists studying him in great detail. He's dangerous and unpredictable, and he had been for a long while before he murdered Reeva.

Good point, but again, he was in a negative frame of mind, thinking the worst, desperately worried that Reeva might be in the toilet, even comeing to that dawning realisation after all of his conversation with her and cries of help went unanswered by her. He hadn't asked her to leave the house and call. He asked her simply to call, and all of a sudden he realises she hasn't answered at any point during this incident. First place he'd want to check is the toilet.

 

[liesbeth]

I think Mrs Burger was the only one who said there was a pause

Mr Johnson also mentioned a slight pause.

 

[Carmelita]

BIB 1-2

I know, here I go with semantics again, but how in the world does he rush and run on his stumps yet still feel so terribly vulnerable on them due to limited mobility? His duplicity is galling to me.

BIB 3

Thank you! Agree, agree, agree. And RS would have called the police and it would have been on her phone if OP's version were true.

Rush and run are relative terms.

 

[molly333]

If he was truly screaming at her to call police then she would have answered. If she did not respond then that is all the more reason he should not have fired into that bathroom because he had not confirmed her whereabouts.

The only screaming he was doing was during the fight with her as he chased her into the bathroom.

If she really thought it was a home invasion herself, maybe not.

And, maybe she was standing at the locked door listening to see if she could figure out what was going on and what all the ruckus was about?

But, why didn't she call the police on her cell phone? Maybe you can't in SA?

Maybe she couldn't understand what he was saying?

 

[Cherwell]

I don't think it was Oscar screaming, but that is just my opinion. I've wondered, though, if when someone is shot in mid-scream, can that scream continue for a second or so, even if the person dies with that shot? I'm thinking in terms of a reflex continuing, kind of like a chicken that keeps running when it's head is cut off (sorry for the gory analogy). Sure, Reeva could not scream after the head-shot, but if she was already mid-scream, could that scream continue until its natural end?

Yes, I think so, as I posted just below you. Prof Saayman said that the scream would be an involuntary act, and that she might have taken a couple of breaths after the head shot, so I think it follows that the scream might continue for a few seconds.

 

[minor4th]

Mr Johnson also mentioned a slight pause.

He mentioned that his wife heard a pause. He wasn't listening and didn't even know how many he heard.

 

[Val1]

In my mind it certainly adds another element of doubt to the probability of his version being accurate. I wish there had been some clarification of the matter in court.

It is possible that his version is entirely untrue, but it is also possible that he is simply introducing a fictional element of caution to his approach to the bathroom because he doesn't want to come across as a gung-ho gangster champing at the bit to use his black talons on evil intruders.

Or like Nel had put to him, OP was buying time to make it more plausible that the gunshots were the noises heard at 3:15-3:17, and that the first set of noises that the Stipps heard must have been the window slamming into the frame and toilet door slamming shut but didn't hear him breaking down the toilet door because they were too busy calling security etc. However, that doesn't explain the previous 10-15 minutes of screaming that everyone heard because surely it didn't take him that long from hearing the window to getting his gun to shooting into the door?