Trial Discussion Thread #29

[TipDog]

Not sure. They say gunshots at 3.17 (I think its that time) but haven't said what they think the 3 am noises were. When I asked the law professor "if the shots were 3.17 then what were the noises at 3 ? He said "dunno" !!
He said its the screams that are more damaging to OPs version.

Yes, I know this - it was part of that whole "fatal flaw" discussion on here the other day. Rather spirited it was.

 

[Val1]

That does seem weird.
Do you really think they can do away without presenting some form of evidence to back up their previous statements that they would . As I said earlier as they have acknowledged the fact that screaming took place they need to answer this.
If they don't the judge will be able to take the testimony of the prosecution witnesses and conclude Reeva did in fact scream for her life, which at this point is what I believe.

Don't forget about the barking dogs that the judge made a note about too... the ones Mrs.Stipp was dragged over the coals about.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I wonder if their sound technician played with that recording too, like when Nel asked if they had enhanced the volume of the bat strikes so they would "sound" like gunshots and Dixon fumbled around in addressing that(is supposed to be bringing in the original recordings from all the sound "tests" from his pc... hmm isn't that where he searched about decibels etc to start with?), as well as how he admitted the gunshots were replicated to fire together in a fast sequence, supposedly due to the gun they were using jamming.

It will be very interesting to see what is put forward here.
I can't help thinking that if it were really true about OP screaming like a woman then they would have done a recording to ask the witnesses if this is the sort of screaming that they heard.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Don't forget about the barking dogs that the judge made a note about too... the ones Mrs.Stipp was dragged over the coals about.

Ah yes the barking dogs !! I was so glad when the judge dealt with this .

 

[Trotterly]

So is everyone happy that by the time the Stipps saw the bathroom light OP would not have had time to return to the bedroom search for Reeva then return to the bathroom when it would be the first time he could turn on the bathroom light to fit in with his story?

 

[crasshopper]

While Dateline is buffering...I am not certain this has been posted but I have not come across it. My fellow newbies may appreciate this.


My recent understanding is that There is apparently no charge of premeditated murder in SA, premeditation is a consideration for sentencing consideration.

http://whosyourdadic.com/tag/law-blog/

There are three classifications for murder charges.

Dolus directus, indirectus and envetualis

MURDER – DOLUS DIRECTUS

Dolus Directus (direct intent), is where the accused meant to perpetrate the prohibited conduct, or to bring about the criminal consequence and where the consequences of an action were both foreseen and desired by the perpetrator. You want to kill someone, so you shoot him. In this case the perpetrator had a specific victim in mind and then went about killing them.

MURDER – DOLUS INDIRECTUS

Dolus indirectus, (indirect intent), exists where, although the unlawful conduct or consequence was not the accused’s aim and object, he foresaw the unlawful conduct or consequence as certain or virtually certain.

MURDER – DOLUS EVENTUALIS

Dolus eventualis exists where the accused does not mean to actually cause the unlawful consequence which follows from his conduct, but foresees or should foresee the possibility of the consequences ensuing, and nonetheless proceeds with his actions.

ok, now I'm really taking a break

CULPABLE HOMICIDE

Culpable homicide has been defined simply as the unlawful negligent killing of a human being. The essential difference with this crime from those mentioned above lies in the fact that the fault in this crime stems from negligence (culpa) and not intent.

 

[shane13]

I wonder how the family is able to every day endure this nightmare!
Don't know, whether my family (inclusive me!) would have that strength.

Of course, much more I feel with June Steenkamp.

BTW Most times I only read texts and have rare opportunity to see videos.

BBM
By making sure Oscar is not armed.

 

[Viper]

Oh, for cry eye.

It's like the chicken before the egg argument... :scared:

Isn't the state sticking with "bat then gun?" as it was noted that it could not be determined 100% by the door itself which one actually did come first?

(By the way, James, I used your post above, but not because I'm not in agreement with you. It was just handy.)

BIB. Yes to the first part, no to the second. Yes the State is sticking to the gunshots to the door came later, about 3:15 - 3:16 IIRC. No to scientifically proven issue because the gunshots definitely came before the door was ripped apart, and to facilitate that OP wedged the tip of the bat in to a defect in the door to pry the long slender panel section out first before ripping out the rest of the panels by hand. Further, it is not scientifically possible to determine if the two marks on the door occurred that night or some earlier time; but neither side is arguing that OP did not strike the door that night.

ETA: Whether the two bat strike hit the door before or after the gunshots is not scientifically possible to determine.

 

[Cherwell]

Good post imo. Maybe one of our Brit contingent took offense at your using the b-word to describe RS's "terror"?

Can't speak for us all but no bloody wouldnt bother us. Do we not like swearing then?
Rumpole not been around lately? His posts deleted?

Hardly anyone in Britland says 'bloody' anymore. We say much, much worse things : )

Here's another Brit who s******ed, oops :giggle: at the suggestion that we are easily offended. Sadly our black humour isn't always appreciated either. :floorlaugh:

 

[Cherwell]

It was pitch black and OP was awake so no reason not to switch on a light.

Yes I think this puzzles us all especially when she should have known the light in the loo was broken ( assuming that is the case )
Reeva was a model she wakes up in the early hours of her first Valentines day with her boyfriend after writing a card to say I love you ,don't you think she would want to take the opportunity to freshen up and look her best I certainly would have.

My own thoughts are that they were both up late, hadn't been asleep, and that the lights were on.

 

[Val1]

I'd asked the same question myself. For one thing, if she knew how to work the alarm, she easily could have switched it off to go downstairs and have a snack while OP slept, explaining the food in stomach.


Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Wonders if in fact the keychain holding the alarm remote was in OP's possession the whole time and that's why OP had seemed so sure that RS couldn't have eaten again after 8pm and whether it held a spare to the toilet room.

 

[shane13]

The Stipps position related to the bathroom has a lot to do with it imo.
I disagree with you main point, imo it's just not possible that all those people would fail to hear gunfire, but then all hear a bat hitting a door , it's not plausible at all.

Agree 100%.
That's why they have the medical term: batty.

 

[K.T]

You are confused....

VDM heard explosions (gunshots) at earlier time. The "crying" she heard was much later, from the front of OP's house when all the ambulances and drama was taking place.. well after the main event.

Nobody is claiming, nor is it necessary, for cricket bat to be louder than gunshots??? The two sets of sounds were never heard at same time, comparative analysis is not an issue, but Stipps did say that both sets of bangs sounded the same, not that bat was louder?

With two events KNOWN FOR SURE to have made some sort of loud banging noise, and two sets of bangs reported by the most credible of STATE witnesses, it beggars believe that people are still in denial about the basic, simple sequence of events that night?

BIB
I think you are incorrect about the timing of the crying.

The sounds of crying, which her husband thought were from Pistorius, came shortly after the bangs. From Jurer13 (Thanks Lisa)

Mrs. van der Merwe, her husband and her child were home on the evening of February 13, 2013, and went to bed around 9pm. In the morning hours she was awakened around 1:56am by the sound of a very loud [she ater said angry] woman’s voice which lasted for about an hour. She was annoyed by this and had to put a pillow over her head in the hopes of getting some sleep. At one point she did get up and go to see if she could see anything outside but did not so she went back to bed. At around 3am, she heard 4 banging sounds. After these banging sounds there was total silence. She asked her husband what he thought the sounds were and he said gunshots. Her husband looked out the window but didn’t see anything. Shortly afterwards they heard somebody crying loudly. Her husband said it was Oscar crying. She later got up and saw several vehicles outside of Oscar’s house.

- I think this sequence shows that neighbor, Estelle van der Merwe, heard Steenkamp loudly arguing with with Pistorius. She says it was "intermittent" for an hour.

- van der Merwe than exhaustedly dozes off and sleeps through the first set of bangs and screams from Steenkamp. She awakens to the last gunshot sounds (around 3am could easily mean 3.15) and the total silence occurs after Steenkamp is hit in the head.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

My own thoughts are that they were both up late, hadn't been asleep, and that the lights were on.

Yes I agree with that .
I was just speaking about hypothetically if we were to believe the OP fairy story . Reeva seemed a very warm and affectionate person and was clearly looking forward to Valentines day . So sad that her life ended in such a terrible manner

 

[Val1]

Not caught up with all the posts yet, but how is Johan Stander going to be allowed to testify when he was sitting in court during testimony for at least one day?

Apparently OP's good friend and contractor, Christo Menelaou, who was supposed to be one of the witnesses, has been spotted sitting in the gallery too.

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

bbm Edit: Not confirmed, can't find the tweet now. Just ignore this post for now ....

 

[Murphys_Law]

I have attached a photo showing a large mark on the wall tiles to the left of the door, and to the left of where the broken tiles would have been.

The mark has the same approx. width of a cricket bat, and is at the same approx height as the cricket bat #1 strike on the door.

If this mark on the tile is a bat strike, then this is extremely incriminating for many reasons.


---------------------------------------
Estimating the size of the mark.... see photo 2
The bottom of the mark is about 3 tiles high
The top of the mar is ~ 3.5 tiles high
The width of the mark is ~ .25 tiles wide


Based on a tile size of 420mm sq (extrapolated using common tile sizes in SA, standard toilette, bath heights, and the bullet hole A at 93 cm) the size of the mark is approx.
- 10.5 cm or 4.3 inches wide
- 21 cm or 8.6 inches high

 

[shane13]

Apparently OP's good friend and contractor, Christo Menelaou, who was supposed to be one of the witnesses, has been spotted sitting in the gallery too.

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

Couldn't find the gallery part?

 

[minor4th]

Have you read this case? The story is quite similar, other than the guy only shot once and immediately rushed his wife to hospital. I'm pretty sure this is what OP expects to get.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

It's very similar indeed.

 

[James50]

Surely you must admit that OP will be convicted of the Tasha's incident and the ammo charge.

The case is far from over yet. I gather Roux has at least 1 gun expert who will testify. I'd be jumping the gun (no pun intended) if I said he was guilty of anything more than an accidental discharge at this point. I admit that he seems to be reckless with guns, but I need to see the whole case to make up my mind. This is only fair to him.

 

[James50]

BBM - Well, if I have to imagine myself to be OP, I must accept I am a trigger-happy denier of everything that's been proved to me. I must accept it is okay to be reckless, blame other people for my wrongdoings, accuse anyone and everyone (who doesn't agree with my 'version') of lying, assume the world starts and ends with me, shoot a dog in the back of the head after running it over and say nothing to the owner (who is standing right there) shoot a gun in a restaurant (with a child at the next table) and then categorically deny my finger was ever on the trigger, get my friend to take the blame, and then deny I got my friend to take the blame... and so on and so forth.

If I am OP, I know that I must not have anything negative about me reported in the media. My image must not be tarnished, and my sponsors must not have reason to cut me off. I must present an image to the world that is not my real image. My livelihood depends on it. So after murdering Reeva in the toilet after another of my unpredictable outbursts, it is not important to me to call for help. But it is important to me to call people who are not medical experts, remove things from my safe, have my friends and family come over and trample all over the crime scene, ensure one of my phones 'disappears', omit significant information from my affidavit so I can get bail, and then make sure the 'private' memorial I hold for Reeva is released into the public domain.

If anyone reads my book, they can see my mother bought me up to be strong and capable and never treated me as disabled. I have never retreated from danger because 'it is not my personality to do so' and on many occasions I have confronted danger when it was not necessary to do so. I have been the victim of many many crimes, but have never reported them to the police, and one time, when I was almost shot at and had to pull into a restaurant car park to call someone to get me... I could not remember who I called!! And then... having forgot who I called, I could not remember the person who took me back to collect my car the next day, even though I was sitting in their car and talking to them on the way.

To escape a murder charge, I must show the Judge how very vulnerable I am because of my disability and how I am constantly in fear of intruders. It's a shame then, that I forgot to get my window fixed, check if the alarm was working and slept for 5 hours with my balcony doors open. I have no explanation for that - nor can I explain why I didn't have time to think, while also having 'many thoughts'.

The point is the majority of decent human beings are so far removed from OP and they type of person he has proved himself to be, that they can't actually imagine being him. Further, they don't have to put themselves in his position to have an opinion on what he should have done. Even the Judge can't do that. What she can do, however, is to look at his past behaviour of lies, deceit and blame, and decide whether the fairytale he's invented could 'reasonably possibly be true' - and it's my opinion (and many others opinions) it is so improbable, that it cannot reasonably possibly be true.

No, all these are just your interpretations about who this man is, not who he is.