Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Cherwell]

BIB
I think you are incorrect about the timing of the crying.

The sounds of crying, which her husband thought were from Pistorius, came shortly after the bangs. From Jurer13 (Thanks Lisa)

- I think this sequence shows that neighbor, Estelle van der Merwe, heard Steenkamp loudly arguing with with Pistorius. She says it was "intermittent" for an hour.

- van der Merwe than dozes off and sleeps through the first set of bangs and screams from Steenkamp. She awakens to the last gunshot sounds (around 3am could easily mean 3.15) and the total silence occurs after Steenkamp is hit in the head.

Yes, am I right in thinking that Mrs vdM makes no mention of looking at the clock when she heard the bangs? If she didn't, then I agree that "around 3 am" should be understood only as a rough estimate of the time. They might not have looked at the clock until after all the commotion, so it would be a retrospective estimate.

 

[shane13]

Happier times.
Photo taken by friend/contractor Christo Menelao, just a few days before IIRC.

 

[minor4th]

Imo as soon as you realise the bat was used before the gun it all makes sense, it really is a eureka moment.

If that's the case, I wish someone would present evidence of how the cricket bat hits were before the gunshots. As things stand, the only evidence is that the bat hit the door after the gunshots. I don't think the judge can draw a reasonable inference that the cricket bat hit the door before the gunshots on the evidence we have so far.

 

[TipDog]

BIB. Yes to the first part, no to the second. Yes the State is sticking to the gunshots to the door came later, about 3:15 - 3:16 IIRC. No to scientifically proven issue because the gunshots definitely came before the door was ripped apart, and to facilitate that OP wedged the tip of the bat in to a defect in the door to pry the long slender panel section out first before ripping out the rest of the panels by hand. Further, it is not scientifically possible to determine if the two marks on the door occurred that night or some earlier time; but neither side is arguing that OP did not strike the door that night.

ETA: Whether the two bat strike hit the door before or after the gunshots is not scientifically possible to determine.

Thank you, Viper. Sorry my post was so poorly written.

BIB - that's what I meant. There seems to be some members here who insist that the state agrees with defense that the gunshots were fired first, then OP used the bat to strike the door. But other than the first bangs around 3:00am, which the state hasn't explained, there is no conclusive evidence that the gun was used before the bat.

 

[molly333]

Maybe it was just her good hand...also you don't know how usable a broken or shattered arm is in an adrenalin filled situation. Seriously injured people have dragged themselves out of the wilderness with horribly debilitaing injuries to their limbs.

yes, I do. It was almost severed and pathologist said a life threatening injury all by itself.

 

[minor4th]

I don't think it really matters though. There's no dispute that there were two sets of sounds and only one of the sets was gunshots. The witnesses can't distinguish between the two - and, iirc, at least one specifically thought that both sets were gun shots. There are marks on the door thought to have been made by the bat. So really, what's left to prove by "expert" testimony? It's clear that one set of sounds was gunshots and the other sounded like gun shots and were likely made by bat absent any other possible source. If they sound alike it's anyone's guess which came first except to the extent that there's OTHER evidence of order. Like the testimony about which came first based on the door itself. I don't think I'm missing anything there, or am I? And I don't think either side has given another possible source, but could stand corrected on that since I'm not able to watch the trial. jmo

There was other evidence of the order of the shots. The state's forensic experts Vermuelen and Mangena said the gunshots were before the cricket bat hit the door.

No one has suggested another source of sounds heard by neighbors, other than cricket bat and gunshots.

 

[TipDog]

yes, I do. It was almost severed and pathologist said a life threatening injury all by itself.

I have to agree with this. He said that it was similar to a near amputation. I think I heard OP say it was broken in his testimony. But broken is far from how horrific that injury had to be if it was similar to near amputation.

 

[Feynman]

Thank you, Viper. Sorry my post was so poorly written.

BIB - that's what I meant. There seems to be some members here who insist that the state agrees with defense that the gunshots were fired first, then OP used the bat to strike the door. But other than the first bangs around 3:00am, which the state hasn't explained, there is no conclusive evidence that the gun was used before the bat.

Well one of the state's own witnesses, Vermeulen, backed the idea that the gunshots came first, bat bangs second. If bat bangs first/gunshots second is the state's case, when did a state's witness testify in favor of this?

 

[Viper]

The case is far from over yet. I gather Roux has at least 1 gun expert who will testify. I'd be jumping the gun (no pun intended) if I said he was guilty of anything more than an accidental discharge at this point. I admit that he seems to be reckless with guns, but I need to see the whole case to make up my mind. This is only fair to him.

BIB. True, the case is not over yet. Do you have that much faith that the DT ballistics expert can perform a miracle for OP? If so, how, why? This trial has not gone well for the Defense IMO, and I have not seen posts proclaiming otherwise.

 

[TorisMom003]

Happier times.
Photo taken by friend/contractor Christo Menelao, just a few days before IIRC.

I have seen that photo before and I wondered then, is that a monkey siting on the back of the couch in the middle of the picture?

 

[minor4th]

Can someone kindly point me to the Stipps' testimony where they say the toilet light was on? I cannot find it. TIA

 

[minor4th]

I have seen that photo before and I wondered then, is that a monkey siting on the back of the couch in the middle of the picture?

It is a monkey LOL . I think it was Oscar's pet at the time?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Can someone kindly point me to the Stipps' testimony where they say the toilet light was on? I cannot find it. TIA

I haven't found it either and yet can specifically remember Mrs stipp's saying it was a fainter light . I am wondering if it could have been during her cross exam with Roux. I have been a bit too lazy to find it yet .

 

[Viper]

There was other evidence of the order of the shots. The state's forensic experts Vermuelen and Mangena said the gunshots were before the cricket bat hit the door.

No one has suggested another source of sounds heard by neighbors, other than cricket bat and gunshots.

BIB. That is incorrect, as that statement relies on carving out a single sentence from all of the testimony and pushing aside relevant testimony as never being given. Is that misrepresentation of the testimony all that the DT has? Really? If so that is truly sad.

 

[shane13]

I have seen that photo before and I wondered then, is that a monkey siting on the back of the couch in the middle of the picture?

yes
yes

 

[James50]

What I feel a lot of people don't realise, Gerrie Nel included, is that OP's emotions are very real, and not faked. The reason this is a source of confusion is because in some ways he seems mature and grown up, in other ways he is not.

According to experts: "Children with physical or learning disabilities may be at risk for unhealthy or delayed emotional development. Learning disabilities can exacerbate emotional issues and prevent the development of healthy peer relationships, according to Jean C. Gorman, author of "Teaching Exceptional Children," appearing on LD OnLine, a resource for learning disabilities and ADHD. Because a child's physical disabilities are more visible and intrusive, it can be difficult for her to gain the social benefits of playing with other children. A research report by SSTA Research Centre for the Saskatchewan School Board says that children with disabilities may be slower to develop emotions and weaker in expressing those emotions, and may have difficulty forming attachments, which impacts identity development."

http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/...ce-childrens-emotional-development-19539.html


The problem is that people have not factored this in. They keep talking about OP as though he grew up like themselves, and they judge him accordingly. That's why they keep trying to come up with imaginary scenarios about how he must have killed RS, each one more ridiculous than the other.

Emotionally he is wired differently to many others, and he can't help himself, and he is not faking it. His family and friends know that, which is why they are so affectionate towards him. We simply cannot use our limited vantage point to say that he is guilty, which is why I am extremely careful about this.

 

[minor4th]

BIB. That is incorrect, as that statement relies on carving out a single sentence from all of the testimony and pushing aside relevant testimony as never being given. Is that misrepresentation of the testimony all that the DT has? Really? If so that is truly sad.

It's not incorrect.

 

[TipDog]

Well one of the state's own witnesses, Vermeulen, backed the idea that the gunshots came first, bat bangs second. If bat bangs first/gunshots second is the state's case, when did a state's witness testify in favor of this?

You're asking the wrong person. :blushing: I'm on the west coast, America. The trial is over pretty much by the time I get up in the morning, so I have watch archived videos. I've admitted that since joining WS, I've not seen all of the testimony.

I'm sure some other very informative member can answer that question.

Anyone?

 

[Cherwell]

Can someone kindly point me to the Stipps' testimony where they say the toilet light was on? I cannot find it. TIA

I don't think either of them specifically said that the toilet light was on.

 

[James50]

I haven't found it either and yet can specifically remember Mrs stipp's saying it was a fainter light . I am wondering if it could have been during her cross exam with Roux. I have been a bit too lazy to find it yet .

If there was a faint light on, it could have been the cell phone light.