Trial Discussion Thread #30

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  • #1,021
Doesn't matter what I think, if the bail judge is satisfied that's what matters.
I asked because you said it was quite normal to have bail conditions modified after 'some' time - which implied you thought OP's conditions were modified after 'some' time. As that time was just a few weeks, I asked what constituted 'some' time for you.
 
  • #1,022
No, you're allowed to talk to potential witnesses without taking their deposition. Just like the police did.

You mean the lawyers or the accused?
 
  • #1,023
But in Baba's original statement to police from the day of the killing, Baba said Pistorius had said he was “okay”. But Baba stressed he was tired when giving this statement, after a long shift.

State prosecutor Gerrie Nel then began his re-examination by asking if Baba had made other statements to police. He said he had also made a statement to lead investigator Captain Mike van Aardt at a later time.

In the second statement, Baba once again said Pistorius had said “everything” was fine.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...s-testimony-under-fire-1.1658742#.U1WWjfldWMM
 
  • #1,024
The DT talking to potential witnesses is not the same as the accused talking directly to them. And I'm of the opinion that, no, the accused should not for a whole host of reasons.

Exactly. Which was my point so thank you for this.
 
  • #1,025
The DT talking to potential witnesses is not the same as the accused talking directly to them. And I'm of the opinion that, no, the accused should not for a whole host of reasons.

BBM - exactly. Can you imagine how intimidating it would for witnesses if someone as powerful as OP tried to persuade them to change their minds about testifying? He agreed not to 'interfere' with any witnesses in his bail application if I recall.
 
  • #1,026
But saying that a more ordinary person would have had no chance of being granted bail.

Are there comparable cases in SA where no bail was granted? I know for example we've had discussions here about a man that shot his pregnant wife and a man who shot his daughter, but I'm not sure what their pre trial situations were.
 
  • #1,027
  • #1,028
Then that would be called a deposition. Where both sides are represented. No, what OP wanted was to be able to go back to his old neighborhood without restrictions and talk to his neighbors. Besides, Dr. Stipp was already told that he "would be getting a call from OP's lawyer" before he went home that early morning. I feel sure that the lawyers for OP already had spoken to or attempted to speak to all of those that reported those sounds of the killing of Reeva. No need for OP to do it, that's what he is paying his lawyers for.

MOO

Perhaps it is very different in SA, but here in in the USA, depositions are quite formal and involve sworn statements, usually many questions to lock in future statements during trial, and are transcribed.
 
  • #1,029
  • #1,030
I find this a little confusing. Does anybody else see a contradiction here? I mean, which is it?



Both Mazibuko and Henzen-du Toit sit with Judge Masipa during the proceedings and listen to all the evidence presented to her. At the end of the case, the assessors will give their opinions to the judge. She is allowed to disregard their views and decide the verdict on her own.

However, the assessors can overrule the judge when it comes to a verdict on the facts in a majority finding. According to Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, that verdict would be the accepted one. The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal.


http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate
 
  • #1,031
Posted after you without seeing your post. So it was just a couple of weeks later that he was whining about his bail conditions??? Not 'some' time at all. I think the 4-week time frame must have been 1) bail conditions set, 2) OP whining, then 3) bail conditions being modified. He'll have to learn a bit of patience if he ends up in :jail:

So far he's had horseshoes up his butt with getting bail and then a modification for this brutal murder, imo.
Hopefully, if he's convicted and sentenced to prison, he'll go there and not be allowed bail to appeal his Conviction!!

Do you or anyone know the procedure for appeals in SA? Does it take years and years like over here?
 
  • #1,032
BBM - Yes.

Roux invented words that OP 'said' and then tried to put those words in Baba's mouth - even though OP claimed he didn't remember speaking any words to Baba!

They were not invented. They came from Baba's first written statement.
 
  • #1,033
The reason you seldom hear of a celebrity having schizophrenia, is because of the nature of the illness. How many people with schizophrenia would be well enough to ever become a celebrity or movie star in the first place?

Schizophrenia in males is most likely to first present in late teens and twenties, though it can present much later. Women have a later presentation - even as late as their thirties, forties and fifties.

I worked with people who, prior to the onset of their illness, have been doctors, engineers, and so on.

I probably didn't explain myself well in my posts. My main points are that:

Psychiatric diagnosis is not a perfect science. It is common for a person with a serious mental illness like schizophrenia to have received a number of different diagnoses over the course of their illness - for a range of reasons. It is not uncommon for experts to disagree on diagnoses, and symptoms can change over time.

Different illnesses have different stereotypes. For schizophrenia, there are "axe murderer" and "Dr Jekyll /Mr Hyde stereotypes, amongst others. Even people with schizophrenia say this. From my extensive experience, the great majority of people with schizophrenia are decent people who constantly battle to the best of their ability with a very $hitty and, as yet, incurable illness. Medication can reduce psychoses, but the side effects can also be debilitating. IMO Bipolar is less stigmatised. Its stereotype is more likely to be creative, gregarious etc.

What has this got to do with OP?? I've almost forgotten... PTSD is one of the more socially acceptable psychiatric diagnoses and, like most, is difficult to "prove" or "disprove" definitively. This is particularly difficult when the diagnosis is based on the self-report of a person who has a strong vested interest in having such a diagnosis.
 
  • #1,034
Thanks! So he hadn't corrected his statement. He still said OP said 'everything's fine'. Do you think Roux would invent words that OP hadn't said and put those words to Baba as something he did say? It seems very odd, especially after OP said he couldn't remember saying anything! Kind of makes Roux look a bit of a fool.
No, his first statement said Oscar said he's okay as opposed to everything's fine. He testified to everything's fine and his second statement reiterated it. It was Roux trying to impeach him based on the initial statement, though he knew full well Baba had made a second statement directly to Van Arndt correcting the previous statement.

Roux didn't need to invent those words...they were in Baba's first statement. I think he was tired, shocked, and what was intended was lost in translation. I also can't find any reason for Baba (or the multitude of other people who would have to be lying in order to believe Oscar) to be dishonest.
 
  • #1,035
BIB. He said that the blood over the bed on the wall was arterial spatter. But as you are kind to note he is a blood investigator not a doctor and he did not have access to the autopsy report as he formulated his opinions.

BIB- That is incorrect. He not only attended the autopsy, he provided the L-scale used for all the measurements.

I do not recall him saying the blood over the bed was arterial spatter, but I will certainly check it out and report back.

On a side issue, I found it interesting that during his testimony ,Vander Ness did not once mention whose blood he was talking about, when it is common knowledge that OP spilled or spattered or dropped some (however small the quantity) of his own blood that evening. I assume the details are in the blood spatter report, for the defence to ignore at their peril...another rat trap set by Nel.
 
  • #1,036
Thanks! So he hadn't corrected his statement. He still said OP said 'everything's fine'. Do you think Roux would invent words that OP hadn't said and put those words to Baba as something he did say? It seems very odd, especially after OP said he couldn't remember saying anything! Kind of makes Roux look a bit of a fool.

He did change his statement between the first and later one from "he said he was okay" to "he said everything was fine."
 
  • #1,037

If, and that's a big IF, any/all of that is true, it just boils my blood.

This in particular:


"Oscar did go out last Saturday with friends," she said.

"It was the first time since the tragic and horrific events of the 14th of February that Oscar went out with friends. He has been out of the house with family, but this was the first time he went out to a restaurant with people other than close family..."

Not even two months after violently murdering another human being and he's out socializing.

No, this man is not innocent of even one single charge against him.
 
  • #1,038
No, his first statement said Oscar said he's okay as opposed to everything's fine. He testified to everything's fine and his second statement reiterated it. It was Roux trying to impeach him based on the initial statement, though he knew full well Baba had made a second statement directly to Van Arndt correcting the previous statement.

Roux didn't need to invent those words...they were in Baba's first statement. I think he was tired, shocked, and what was intended was lost in translation. I also can't find any reason for Baba (or the multitude of other people who would have to be lying in order to believe Oscar) to be dishonest.

I think there is sound reason to question his reliability though. Mixing up the order of the calls is not insignificant. It's a major error in the narrative.
 
  • #1,039
  • #1,040
[/QUOTE]
Are there comparable cases in SA where no bail was granted? I know for example we've had discussions here about a man that shot his pregnant wife and a man who shot his daughter, but I'm not sure what their pre trial situations were.

Usually, a senior judicial official said, bail is granted to defendants accused of premeditated murder, like Mr. Pistorius, only when “there are exceptional circumstances which show that it is in the interests of justice” to allow it.

“If you have got money, you are going to get a different kind of trial,” the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under department rules.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/w...system-favoring-the-rich-and-famous.html?_r=0

And here's a legal argument for bail:
What is of primary importance is whether his legal representative had provided evidence of exceptional circumstances that would demonstrate to the court that Pistorius had not been involved in similar crimes in the past, that he does not pose a flight risk or a threat to other members of the public and that he will not interfere with the investigation. If they had shown this, Pistorius should be granted bail.
http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-and-the-granting-of-bail/
 
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