Trial Discussion Thread #31

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  • #761
I only started following this right before the trial started, and I read a few articles and thought the state is going to have a really hard time proving premeditation and murder -- but of course there was not much information out at the time. Here's my progression of how I have swayed from "not guilty" to "definitely guilty" to "not guilty" to "I don't know:

Burger

Then the state put on their first witness -Burger and I thought "That's it. He's so guilty; his goose is cooked." But then Roux poked some pretty significant holes in her account when he compared it to her prior written statement, and she was so stubbornly resistant to conceding even reasonable points, that I began to wonder if she was maybe a little too gung ho for the prosecution. She stated that she thought OP was lying and by implication guilty, so I wondered if she was(perhaps even unintentionally) framing her testimony in biased manner (adding embellishments about the screams, adding the detail that she heard a man and woman screaming at the same time, etc).

At that time, Roux was merely suggesting that the shots she heard might have been the cricket bat hitting the door - a suggestion that I initially dismissed out of hand, as I could not conceive that the two could sound the same or even similar enough to be confused.

Johnson

Then Johnson also seemed compelling and believable when Nel was questioning him. But again Roux cast doubt on his testimony as well - he changed the number of shots he heard from his initial statements, changed his description of the screams, and also added a man and woman screaming or yelling at the same time.

So at that point, I have some doubts about their testimony -- not their whole testimony, but certain parts that were changed from their initial statements. Johnson was more credible to me simply because he at least seemed willing to consider that he misinterpreted the sounds or the screams.

Van der Merwe

Then Van der Merwe got on the stand and we hear that she heard "loud talking" by a female on and off from 2-3 and then 4 bangs around 3:00. That seemed to corroborate some of the Burger/Johnson testimony and also added the implication of an argument between OP and Reeva leading up to the gunshots. At that point, we have no point of reference for the two sets of sounds, so it seems like Merwe is describing the same shots the Burgers heard. But then she says she mistook OP's loud crying for the sounds of a female. Hmmm. I started to wonder if it's possible OP's screams really did sound like a woman ...at least it now seems possible.

Merwe's testimony is a bit confusing because of the translation issues IMO but listening closely it's clear that she does not know where the "loud talking" was coming from and she didn't hear the other side, so it's not clear that it was even an argument (maybe one side of a phone call argument?)

Dr Stipp

Dr Stipp's testimony was crucial because it gave context to the two sets of sounds and for the first time we hear from an actual witness that the gunshots and cricket bat both sounded like gunshots - and that those sounds were separated by several minutes.

He was also on the scene within minutes and can give a direct description of Oscar's appearance and demeanor as well as Reeva's condition :(

He says he sees the light on after the shots and about the time the screaming started - "several moments" after the 3 shots he heard, as he described it. On the face of it, this is at least consistent with OP's own account.

Vermeulen and Mangena

Together these two experts testify that the gunshots were before the bat strikes, OP was on his stumps when he shot through the door, and OP was standing at a farther distance and at an angle from the door when he shot through it.

I know there are disagreements about what they really meant, but IMO this was the substance of their testimony.

Mrs Stipp

She also heard two sets of noises several minutes apart and also believed both sounds were gunshots - they sounded the same. She says she hears man and woman screaming - but there's still that doubt in my mind because of Merwe's misidentification of female/male loud crying. Taken together with the expert testimony, it at least seems possible that it could have been Oscar crying/screaming/yelling because the forensics suggest that Reeva would have been incapacitated. (I know, I know, most of you disagree, but I'm just laying out my thinking and the evolution of my opinion)

Phone/Data Guy

Messages indicated that there were some problems and this probably wasn't the most healthy relationship, but there were also many messages that indicated that the two were very fond of each other and still in the grip of a new romantic relationship.

The messages also indicated that Oscar was not jealous about Reeva visiting her ex-bf soon before the incident. That was a big deal to me. While there did seem to be some petty jealousy on Oscar's part (Reeva talking to some guy when Oscar was ready to leave and touching his arm, etc), there's nothing at all to indicate that he was consumed with jealousy or that he acted out violently as a result.

So by the conclusion of the state's case, in my mind there is already reasonable doubt about whether the witnesses heard Reeva screaming between the two sets of loud bangs. And if there's reasonable doubt about Reeva screaming and no clear jealousy motive, then there's really no case for premeditation.

Oscar Pistorius

I believed that it would be somewhat smooth sailing for OP after the state finished its case in chief, but OP has proved to be a horrible witness. Not only is he a bad witness, who IMO is easily confused and easily led - his defense was undermined by his use of "accident" and his (obvious IMO) refusal to ever use the words "intent" or "deliberate" even though that's what he was describing. It just confused everything.

Then Nel brings these pictures back out that would really obliterate Oscar's account if we could confidently accept that they were actually depictions of the crime scene as the police initially found it (untouched).

OP also made some mistakes that are concerning - I can't recall exactly what they were but there were a couple that really made me question whether he's hiding something.

Other issues of concern: The food in Reeva's stomach and what appears to be an improbability that her last meal was at 7:30 as Oscar reports. Another issue is the addition of the assertion that Reeva was awake and talking to him as he was getting the fans. Another issue - the whole layout of their bedroom and all the maneuvers OP would have had to go through to get from the point of first hearing the sound in the bathroom until the point that he is at the corner of the bathroom with his gun pointed at the toilet.

At this point, I am keeping an open mind and I'm anxious to hear more evidence that might instill a more abiding conclusion in my mind.

Great post Minor, thanks for sharing. I would only add to that Mrs Stipp's testimony that she saw the bathroom light on 'moments' after the first set of sounds. Her testimony seemed reliable to me and this is a significant piece that is contrary to OP's version.
 
  • #762
Do you know how it was established what side of the bed OP was sleeping on that night? In other words, is it his narrative only, or was there any evidence or corroboration? TIA

It is his narrative alone that he was on the left that night. On the contrary, we do have this other evidence:

1. His t-shirt was found on the right side of the bed.
2. His iPad was found on the right side of the bed.
3. His electric clippers were plugged in on the right side of the bed.
4. His ammunition was in the drawer of the right hand side bed table.
5. OP stated that his prosthetics were on the right side of the bed that night.
6. Samantha Taylor testified that he always slept on the right.
 
  • #763
It is his narrative alone that he was on the left that night. On the contrary, we do have this other evidence:

1. His t-shirt was found on the right side of the bed.
2. His iPad was found on the right side of the bed.
3. His electric clippers were plugged in on the right side of the bed.
4. His ammunition was in the drawer of the right hand side bed table.
5. OP stated that his prosthetics were on the right side of the bed that night.
6. Samantha Taylor testified that he always slept on the right.

.. which, imo, just goes to show what a desperate attempt it was to say he'd swapped sides of the bed, just in order to place Reeva as far away as possible when he reached under the bed to get his gun.

I think I'm correct in saying that Reeva had stayed over the previous night, too .. in which case, OP would've slept on the LH side of the bed that night as well, and therefore all of his stuff would definitely have been moved over onto the LH side of the bed as it wouldn't have just been a spur of the moment thing (changing sides) on that particular night, it would've been exactly the same the previous night.
 
  • #764
BBM... you qualify to be on the defense team! :giggle: (just teasing)

OP added the "heard window slide open" detail to his plea statement prior to court. It was not in his bail affidavit.

When OP was on the stand, part of his reasoning for not asking Reeva if she heard the noise was because he said he KNEW exactly what he heard, he didn't need confirmation.

When Nel pushed him on how he KNEW what he heard was the window, he masterfully tailored in the window hitting its wooden frame... you could see the wheels churning in his mind as he said it. Yea, that's right, Nel... I heard wood slam on wood and that totally means that the window opened and I heard it. If I could read minds, I bet at that point he was thinking "man, I'm brilliant."

The funny thing is, he previously had stated that when he entered the bathroom, "seeing" the window open is what confirmed it for him.

Oops.

re: the window and slamming against the frame.
a poster earlier cleverly noted how the window slides open towards the centre - not towards the frame. and so might well be difficult [or impossible] to slam open.
 
  • #765
It concerned me when Roux indicated that Van Rensburg was giving evidence on behalf of Hilton Botha, to avoid Botha having to testify.

If Van Rensburg wasn't even aware that there was a window in the toilet, I wonder how much of the crime scene he actually observed?

You can click on the link below to see only the relevant section :-

Section Link


Source: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Friday 14 March 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

Yes, that seemed clearly calculated by the prosecution to avoid having Botha on the stand. It didn't seem right to have Van Rensburg look at pictures that were taken after he viewed the scene, and ask him if that's exactly how it looked.
 
  • #766
Van der Merwe

Then Van der Merwe got on the stand and we hear that she heard "loud talking" by a female on and off from 2-3 and then 4 bangs around 3:00. That seemed to corroborate some of the Burger/Johnson testimony and also added the implication of an argument between OP and Reeva leading up to the gunshots. At that point, we have no point of reference for the two sets of sounds, so it seems like Merwe is describing the same shots the Burgers heard. But then she says she mistook OP's loud crying for the sounds of a female. Hmmm. I started to wonder if it's possible OP's screams really did sound like a woman ...at least it now seems possible.

~snipped to save space as it was a v.long post ~

You say "at least it now seems possible" that OP's screams really can sound like a woman .. what specifically has led you to feel/believe this?
 
  • #767
~snipped to save space as it was a v.long post ~

You say "at least it now seems possible" that OP's screams really can sound like a woman .. what specifically has led you to feel/believe this?

If his loud crying can sound like a woman, then it's also possible his distressed screams can also sound like a woman.

And it was not clear what Merwe meant by "crying" - it seems it would have to have been something akin to wailing.

And now I've heard Oscar's voice rise dramatically in pitch when he is upset, and that lends more credibility to the notion. We'll see what the sound tests indicate, but in my mind it's a possibility that Oscar's screams sound like a woman.
 
  • #768
I don't think this is the case. The pic of the vest clearly shows the label of the vest on the inside back with the vest damage to the front (Reeva's right side).

Thanks for that . I can see that now .I was forgetting an image is in reverse in a photo which is why I thought it could have been on back to front It must just have been ruched up in the photo of Reeva wearing it . As I said I really didn't look too closely as I thought it was too upsetting .

Wonder if the state will comment on the clothes later to explain what the issue was other than OP stated that she was in PJ's and they feel she was clothed or if that was just it .
Can't wait for the closing arguments to see what comes out .
 
  • #769
I am sorry but if my brother had just shot his girlfriend dead in any scenario the last thing I would be worried about is his stupid watch. This kind of goes to the mind set of the family I guess?
Aimee was allowed upstairs to get some clothes for her brother. She asked the police if she could take one of his watches in doing this. They granted permission. Should she not have gathered some clothes for OP? I just don't understand why people get so upset about this.
 
  • #770
<RSBM>

Reeva's heart was beating when OP walked through the bedroom, no question. She might have been " dead" but her heart was still beating and could have done so for several minutes after the GSW to the head.

There is not point rehashing the many known physiologic principles which would account for the smaller than expected pools of blood in the toilet room, palor of skin, muscles/heart & liver, etc but at NO TIME was internal bleeding put forth as part of the picture, nor did it happen.

BIB1. How do you get that Reeva was dead but her heart was still beating after considering Dr. Saymaan's finding that she was Clinically Dead within 2-3 breaths? That would be way more than just speculation!

BIB 2. And so you were saying that there are "smaller than expected pools of blood in the toilet room".. Well that does not support your newest speculation that Reeva bled to death, it goes against that speculation, wouldn't you agree? And you were also saying that "at no time was internal bleeding put forth as part of the picture, nor did it happen".. But in your newest post you speculate about that happening.
 
  • #771
I really don't know what the protocol is for different police departments - but in this case Van Staden testified again and again that he was alone the whole time he was photographing the initial crime scene, so that is apparently what is expected when preserving the initial scene with photographs. Despite Van Staden's insistence, the evidence seems to suggest that he was no in fact alone while capturing the initial scene.

Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that Van Staden arrived after OP was moved from the kitchen to the garage. He and Hilton Botha remained in the company of Van Staden while he took photographs of Reeva downstairs. All three then went upstairs following the blood trail and into the bathroom.

There are a few things not making sense regarding those allegedly present at the crime scene.

Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that OP was left in the kitchen whilst he and Hilton Botha went upstairs. Hilton Botha's statement claims that OP was already in the garage when he arrived. This makes it highly probable that Van Rensburg attended the crime scene on his own, before the arrival of Hilton Botha.

There is also the discrepancy that there is nothing in Van Rensburg's original statement that mentions Hilton Botha.

Van Rensburg also testified in cross-x that Sgt. Ntome Sebetha arrived about the same time, and was standing in the kitchen area but didn't go upstairs. The state disclosed Sgt. Sebetha's statement to the DT which indicated that at 3.30am he received information about the shooting at the house of Mr Pistorius and immediately rushed to the scene of the crime together with Constable C????

He indicated that when he arrived the paramedics were still working on Reeva, which was before anyone else arrived.

He goes on to say...I proceeded to the upper building where I noticed droplets of blood...I went upstairs...and I found blood and a firearm, 9mm Taurus (stainless) in the main bathroom, and 4 cartridges were lying around in the bathroom. The toilet door was broken.
 
  • #772
re: the window and slamming against the frame.
a poster earlier cleverly noted how the window slides open towards the centre - not towards the frame. and so might well be difficult [or impossible] to slam open.

.. also, as far as I can make out, it wouldn't even slam into the frame of the window on the LH side .. the three windows seem to be staggered (not sure how to explain this) .. ok, you've got the one on the LH side which is innermost and slides across to the right over the centre panel on the bathroom side from what I can make out of it (can't seem to find a really clear, crisp image) .. then you've got a fixed centre panel, then you've got the panel on the RH side which slides across to the left on the outside over the centre panel. I'm presuming there must be some kind of mechanism to stop the window sliding any further, but it's not a frame and it's not the other (LH) window.

The other thing that never rang true to me was why OP thought an intruder would even think they would be able to get through a closed bathroom window in the first place, without having to smash the glass to either release a catch or undo a lock or a bolt .. they simply wouldn't bother, imo, and would gain access downstairs. Or, the only way they would bother to gain access through a bathroom window would be if it was already open, but it wasn't already open, not in OP's testimony it wasn't, anyway. So on all counts, the 'intruder - hearing the bathroom window slide open' story fails. No, 'an intruder' is not the immediate thing anybody is ever going to think if they hear a bathroom window opening (that's if it even did, anyway, which I very much doubt .. I think OP opened it later) .. first it would flash across their mind that no-one could open that window from the outside anyway and second it would flash across their mind that the most likely cause of the noise is the person who is sharing that room with you. BS, the lot of it!
 
  • #773
Thanks for that I knew that there was also an ammunition holder but was confused because I have read in the WS forum that he had two gun holsters .
Someone said something along the lines that he uses a different depending on what he is wearing

Do you know if that is correct and where the other one was in the house ?
TIA

I don't remember hearing about a 2nd gun holster, but if it was mentioned I may have missed it.

I remember during Nel's cross of OP regarding a Vaal River boating excursion, OP said that he changes where/how he wears his holster/gun depending on what he's wearing.
 
  • #774
If his loud crying can sound like a woman, then it's also possible his distressed screams can also sound like a woman.

And it was not clear what Merwe meant by "crying" - it seems it would have to have been something akin to wailing.

And now I've heard Oscar's voice rise dramatically in pitch when he is upset, and that lends more credibility to the notion. We'll see what the sound tests indicate, but in my mind it's a possibility that Oscar's screams sound like a woman.

Only he didn't sound like a woman at all .. :facepalm: .. like many of us were saying only in the past day or so, he may well be able to change his pitch but will still always sound like a man. The 'Sandhurst' vid posted yesterday with the army major (?) screaming 'en garde' still sounded like a man, even though it was extremely high pitched.
 
  • #775
Thanks for that . I can see that now .I was forgetting an image is in reverse in a photo which is why I thought it could have been on back to front It must just have been ruched up in the photo of Reeva wearing it . As I said I really didn't look too closely as I thought it was too upsetting .

Wonder if the state will comment on the clothes later to explain what the issue was other than OP stated that she was in PJ's and they feel she was clothed or if that was just it .
Can't wait for the closing arguments to see what comes out .

I've got a feeling it might be something to do with what was on those clothes .. I've got some thoughts on that but not sure about voicing them yet.
 
  • #776
Brain dead does not always mean that the heart has stopped beating.


http://www.transplant.bc.ca/brain_criterion_main.htm

Q. If my loved one is brain dead, what does that mean?

A. When someone is brain dead, it means there is not blood flow or oxygen to their brain and that their brain is no longer functioning in any capacity and never will again. It does not mean that other organs, such as the heart, kidneys or liver, are dead, although they may function for only a few days. Unless damaged by injury or disease, these organs may be used by another individual through an organ transplant.

Reeva was never Brain Dead, she was Clinically Dead within 2-3 breaths of having a Black Talon hollow point bullet shred through her brain and fracture her base of skull. Cinical death means the brain stops, the heart stops, and breathing stops.

If she were brain dead and her breathing stopped (Saymaan, no blood found in the airways) then her heart would stop very soon thereafter. Given the small amount of blood in the crime scene and the severity of her gunshot wounds it supports Dr Saymaan's finding that Reeva died within 2-3 last breaths.

How others can see it appropriate to inject that Reeva stopped breathing but remained brain dead for 10-27 minutes is beyond me. And it is clearly causing confusion. Reminds me of "gunshot sounds first - cricket bat sounds first!"
 
  • #777
That's what is so aggravating - no matter which perspective I view it, I run into obstacles. I can't make sense of the state's case and at the same time I believe Oscar is not telling the complete truth and is hiding something.

I'm much the same. It would be very naive of me to believe that OP is telling everything like it is.

I just can't say I'm certain that his evasiveness is because he intentionally killed Reeva. If he drifted way out from his original statement I'd be more convinced of his guilt.
He seems to be overly focused on proving his innocence rather than answering questions directly and letting his DT deal with the legal issues.

It's almost as if he believes that there is some kind of conspiracy.
 
  • #778
I only started following this right before the trial started, and I read a few articles and thought the state is going to have a really hard time proving premeditation and murder -- but of course there was not much information out at the time. Here's my progression of how I have swayed from "not guilty" to "definitely guilty" to "not guilty" to "I don't know:

Burger

Then the state put on their first witness -Burger and I thought "That's it. He's so guilty; his goose is cooked." But then Roux poked some pretty significant holes in her account when he compared it to her prior written statement, and she was so stubbornly resistant to conceding even reasonable points, that I began to wonder if she was maybe a little too gung ho for the prosecution. She stated that she thought OP was lying and by implication guilty, so I wondered if she was(perhaps even unintentionally) framing her testimony in biased manner (adding embellishments about the screams, adding the detail that she heard a man and woman screaming at the same time, etc).

At that time, Roux was merely suggesting that the shots she heard might have been the cricket bat hitting the door - a suggestion that I initially dismissed out of hand, as I could not conceive that the two could sound the same or even similar enough to be confused.

Johnson

Then Johnson also seemed compelling and believable when Nel was questioning him. But again Roux cast doubt on his testimony as well - he changed the number of shots he heard from his initial statements, changed his description of the screams, and also added a man and woman screaming or yelling at the same time.

So at that point, I have some doubts about their testimony -- not their whole testimony, but certain parts that were changed from their initial statements. Johnson was more credible to me simply because he at least seemed willing to consider that he misinterpreted the sounds or the screams.

Van der Merwe

Then Van der Merwe got on the stand and we hear that she heard "loud talking" by a female on and off from 2-3 and then 4 bangs around 3:00. That seemed to corroborate some of the Burger/Johnson testimony and also added the implication of an argument between OP and Reeva leading up to the gunshots. At that point, we have no point of reference for the two sets of sounds, so it seems like Merwe is describing the same shots the Burgers heard. But then she says she mistook OP's loud crying for the sounds of a female. Hmmm. I started to wonder if it's possible OP's screams really did sound like a woman ...at least it now seems possible.

Merwe's testimony is a bit confusing because of the translation issues IMO but listening closely it's clear that she does not know where the "loud talking" was coming from and she didn't hear the other side, so it's not clear that it was even an argument (maybe one side of a phone call argument?)

Dr Stipp

Dr Stipp's testimony was crucial because it gave context to the two sets of sounds and for the first time we hear from an actual witness that the gunshots and cricket bat both sounded like gunshots - and that those sounds were separated by several minutes.

He was also on the scene within minutes and can give a direct description of Oscar's appearance and demeanor as well as Reeva's condition :(

He says he sees the light on after the shots and about the time the screaming started - "several moments" after the 3 shots he heard, as he described it. On the face of it, this is at least consistent with OP's own account.

Vermeulen and Mangena

Together these two experts testify that the gunshots were before the bat strikes, OP was on his stumps when he shot through the door, and OP was standing at a farther distance and at an angle from the door when he shot through it.

I know there are disagreements about what they really meant, but IMO this was the substance of their testimony.

Mrs Stipp

She also heard two sets of noises several minutes apart and also believed both sounds were gunshots - they sounded the same. She says she hears man and woman screaming - but there's still that doubt in my mind because of Merwe's misidentification of female/male loud crying. Taken together with the expert testimony, it at least seems possible that it could have been Oscar crying/screaming/yelling because the forensics suggest that Reeva would have been incapacitated. (I know, I know, most of you disagree, but I'm just laying out my thinking and the evolution of my opinion)

Phone/Data Guy

Messages indicated that there were some problems and this probably wasn't the most healthy relationship, but there were also many messages that indicated that the two were very fond of each other and still in the grip of a new romantic relationship.

The messages also indicated that Oscar was not jealous about Reeva visiting her ex-bf soon before the incident. That was a big deal to me. While there did seem to be some petty jealousy on Oscar's part (Reeva talking to some guy when Oscar was ready to leave and touching his arm, etc), there's nothing at all to indicate that he was consumed with jealousy or that he acted out violently as a result.

So by the conclusion of the state's case, in my mind there is already reasonable doubt about whether the witnesses heard Reeva screaming between the two sets of loud bangs. And if there's reasonable doubt about Reeva screaming and no clear jealousy motive, then there's really no case for premeditation.

Oscar Pistorius

I believed that it would be somewhat smooth sailing for OP after the state finished its case in chief, but OP has proved to be a horrible witness. Not only is he a bad witness, who IMO is easily confused and easily led - his defense was undermined by his use of "accident" and his (obvious IMO) refusal to ever use the words "intent" or "deliberate" even though that's what he was describing. It just confused everything.

Then Nel brings these pictures back out that would really obliterate Oscar's account if we could confidently accept that they were actually depictions of the crime scene as the police initially found it (untouched).

OP also made some mistakes that are concerning - I can't recall exactly what they were but there were a couple that really made me question whether he's hiding something.

Other issues of concern: The food in Reeva's stomach and what appears to be an improbability that her last meal was at 7:30 as Oscar reports. Another issue is the addition of the assertion that Reeva was awake and talking to him as he was getting the fans. Another issue - the whole layout of their bedroom and all the maneuvers OP would have had to go through to get from the point of first hearing the sound in the bathroom until the point that he is at the corner of the bathroom with his gun pointed at the toilet.

At this point, I am keeping an open mind and I'm anxious to hear more evidence that might instill a more abiding conclusion in my mind.

So sorry for reposting your whole post I'm not sure how to snip it without erasing all the lines I don't want to post individually which takes me forever :-)

I have been thinking about how adamant the witnesses were and can only conclude that they will have been strongly advised by Nel to be wary of Roux trying to twist their words and to stick with what they whole heartedly believe was their recollections of the night . Nel knows exactly how Roux / oldwage operate.
Mrs Stipp's said she had relayed to friends how awful and haunting the female screaming was before she had even given a police statement or knew it was OP
So I do find it difficult to believe that she actually heard OP screaming .
 
  • #779
Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that Van Staden arrived after OP was moved from the kitchen to the garage. He and Hilton Botha remained in the company of Van Staden while he took photographs of Reeva downstairs. All three then went upstairs following the blood trail and into the bathroom.

There are a few things not making sense regarding those allegedly present at the crime scene.

Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that OP was left in the kitchen whilst he and Hilton Botha went upstairs. Hilton Botha's statement claims that OP was already in the garage when he arrived. This makes it highly probable that Van Rensburg attended the crime scene on his own, before the arrival of Hilton Botha.

There is also the discrepancy that there is nothing in Van Rensburg's original statement that mentions Hilton Botha.

Van Rensburg also testified in cross-x that Sgt. Ntome Sebetha arrived about the same time, and was standing in the kitchen area but didn't go upstairs. The state disclosed Sgt. Sebetha's statement to the DT which indicated that at 3.30am he received information about the shooting at the house of Mr Pistorius and immediately rushed to the scene of the crime together with Constable C????

He indicated that when he arrived the paramedics were still working on Reeva, which was before anyone else arrived.

He goes on to say...I proceeded to the upper building where I noticed droplets of blood...I went upstairs...and I found blood and a firearm, 9mm Taurus (stainless) in the main bathroom, and 4 cartridges were lying around in the bathroom. The toilet door was broken.

You're right. That totally does not makes sense. Can you tell me where you read Sebetha's statement or found portions of it? I don't remember ever hearing this. Thank you!
 
  • #780
I think the point of the defense demonstration of cricket bat on door noises, and the expected demonstration of OP screaming is not likely to show that either sound is "Exactly like" a gunshot or a "woman screaming"... I am sure that a cricket bat on door is NOT exactly the same as a gunshot, and I predict that any recording of OP will NOT sound exactly like a woman (Reeva) screaming.
However, that is NOT the point of such demonstrations. It is necessary to show that the test sounds are "in the same ball park"... and IMO cricket bat sound is clearly the same sort of noise as a gunshot. Not the same, not as loud, for sure, but sufficiently like to be MISTAKEN by a witness some distance away.
That is the point. It is about what witnesses PERCEIVE and not about the sounds in an absolute sense. For instance, measurements of exact sound frequencies, db levels etc are NOT what is required. Human perception is not like an electronic instrument that measures exact data. Human perception includes predispositions to see/hear whatever at that time, and in those circumstances, as well as reference to past experiences.
IMO it misses the point to to contemplate "can OP scream like a woman"... the answer is probably "No". The point is... can OP Scream in such a way that witnesses could mistake those screams for the sound of a woman screaming. My guess is that he can. I base that guess on the small samples we have heard when he gets upset in court, but more so on the fact that the State's own evidence, especially ear witnesses (taken as a whole), have provided very strong evidence (some of it circumstantial) that the screams were AFTER Reeva was dead, and so the only likely source of those screams was OP himself.
 
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