Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Ncl1968]

Security already was alerted that something was wrong.

OP had just told Baba that everything was fine. He had to buy time. That's why he told Baba everything was ok.

The Standers were on their way over. They didn't call the police or an ambulance either. Instead they were screwing around with plastic garbage bags, rope, and tape.

I have no doubt they were in the middle of deciding whether to cover it up, accident or not. The normal reaction to normal people in an emergency is to call the police or an ambulance, not to try to deal with the bleeding with plastic garbage bags, tape, and rope.

I agree
Everything done after the "accident " stinks of self survival
Even to think of hiding the body

 

[PPKik]

~snipped~ to address this directly.

<Respectfully snipped by me>

BBM

The fact that she also stated she heard a shot, then a pause, then shot shot shot even before the ballistics confirmed it (i.e. she wouldn't have had a clue what their evidence was going to be, so wouldn't have either made it up or mistaken it) is confirmation again that she heard those sounds and heard them correctly.

That is true, but below you say the door is already smashed in, and sound would carry out through that smashed-in door and open window. Ms Burger emphasized over and over she heard four gunshots, and knows what they sound like, could not mistake them for anything else.

Secondly, you're assuming that Reeva was behind a heavy locked door at the time with no toilet window open, but it is highly likely by that stage that the top half of the toilet door had been smashed in, so that bit is all open now, and together with the bathroom window being open (plus the balcony windows too, it all adds to the amount of sound that gets carried out of the house, especially if the screams were that loud.

Are you saying here that both the gun shots and the beating down of the door by the cricket bat had already occurred?

General question to all .. in regard to her hearing a fading scream just slightly after the gunshot, is possible that the sound of such powerful gunfire can carry more quickly than the sound of a human voice screaming, just slightly .. I would think that is possible, considering the velocity of the shot in question.

I don't know. Interesting subject to research.

 

[DebinGA]

Nel - Andy Serkis

Roux - Hugh Bonneville

Dixon - Martin Clunes

OP - Nicholas Hoult

 

[BritsKate]

Didn't he run out to the balcony and scream? Scream repeatedly for help?!

ETA: Thanks so much to the mods, minor4th, and whoever else helped put together the "ear witness" thread. I was able to listen to some of Michelle Burger's testimony early this morning. It makes no sense to me at all, no matter what version of the shooting I try to follow.

Her version is a definite woman screaming before and after definite shooting, after four distinct gun shots. Not possibly OP screaming, yet she hears him (male voice, different voice) yelling for help, afterwards. What a cross Roux has given her!

RBBM, AFAICR

In his version he ran out to the balcony to scream for help. Witnesses (to include Michelle Burger) heard a man yelling for help before the 2nd set of bangs at 3:17. Charl Johnson also heard a woman yelling for help. After 3:17 (except for van der Merwe's commotion and cry) there is silence.

Johnson states in his testimony the last of the woman's screams died away with the last bang. Burger states she heard her voice 'just after' the last shot. I think it's arguable, though it's been awhile since I listened to her testimony, that she didn't mean it a lot like Johnson.

Saayman testified that screaming was not related to cognitive function. As such, it's my understanding (and I could well be wrong) a final scream from Reeva could have faded as she either lost consciousness or died. Seconds after the incapacitating head wound.

JMO

 

[shane13]

Nel - Andy Serkis

Roux - Hugh Bonneville

Dixon - Martin Clunes

OP - Nicholas Hoult

What about Cumberbatch?

 

[Ncl1968]

Oscar said in his bail plea ...you will not find my guilty of premeditated murder or murder..... cocky rich temper ridden and carries a loaded gun...... recipe for disaster

 

[minor4th]

<snipped>

The fact that she also stated she heard a shot, then a pause, then shot shot shot even before the ballistics confirmed it (i.e. she wouldn't have had a clue what their evidence was going to be, so wouldn't have either made it up or mistaken it) is confirmation again that she heard those sounds and heard them correctly.

<snipped>

She said this at the trial; I do not believe this was in her written statement. She did not even give her statement until six weeks after the incident and after she had listened to the whole bail hearing.

 

[redheadedgal]

<modsnip>

has the cite been given for these "facts" yet? i don't see it but i did notice a log in earlier today...

something seems "off" about "fact 3"... of all the people i've ever talked to on the phone that i don't know (calling an office, store or a company, telemarketer, gov't agency, restaurant, etc), i don't think i've ever thought someone wasn't the sex they turned out to be having subsequently gotten their name or met them :twocents:

 

[soozieqtips]

has the cite been given for these "facts" yet? i don't see it but i did notice a log in earlier today...

something seems "off" about "fact 3"... of all the people i've ever talked to on the phone that i don't know (calling an office, store or a company, telemarketer, gov't agency, restaurant, etc),
i don't think i've ever thought someone wasn't the sex they turned out to be having subsequently gotten their name or met them :twocents:

BBM - Me neither. That's two out of two then who can correctly identify a male or female voice. What 'studies' were carried out and 60% of how many people? Without accurate figures, I could just as easily claim that since you and I can correctly identify male and female voices, then my 'study' shows that 100% of people can correctly identify male and female voices!

 

[steveml]

~snipped~ to address this directly.

I actually think it is highly likely OP would've called out 'help, help, help' in a mocking way when Reeva was shouting for help. Not only that but didn't Burger provide a statement to the effect that she had heard OP calling 'help' three times? Considering OP has actually confirmed he called out 'help, help, help' three times (albeit in a different context, i.e. his version), then I think that is confirmation that Burger did actually hear all these sounds, even though they are 177 metres away. The fact that she also stated she heard a shot, then a pause, then shot shot shot even before the ballistics confirmed it (i.e. she wouldn't have had a clue what their evidence was going to be, so wouldn't have either made it up or mistaken it) is confirmation again that she heard those sounds and heard them correctly.


Firstly, I don't think there is any reason why someone would not be able to hear both gunshots and a voice (screaming) at the same time, the sound of the gunshots would certainly not blot out the screaming. Secondly, you're assuming that Reeva was behind a heavy locked door at the time with no toilet window open, but it is highly likely by that stage that the top half of the toilet door had been smashed in, so that bit is all open now, and together with the bathroom window being open (plus the balcony windows too, it all adds to the amount of sound that gets carried out of the house, especially if the screams were that loud) .. so actually, yes, I can't see any reason why she couldn't have heard all those sounds.

General question to all .. in regard to her hearing a fading scream just slightly after the gunshot, is possible that the sound of such powerful gunfire can carry more quickly than the sound of a human voice screaming, just slightly .. I would think that is possible, considering the velocity of the shot in question.

BBM

What situation, other than in a movie do you hear of this mocking idea? Once you even accept the idea, you've got to think why he would he shout it out so it could be heard on the next estate 177 metres away. Not for me I'm afraid.

My theory is that the only voices she would have heard are those from outside the house, probably from the balcony.

Ref: Gunshots vs Screams.

A gunshot measures approx. 133dB
Loudest scream ever (world record) 128dB

The conditions for the gunshot are also much favoured.

Gunshot - open window
Screaming - enclosed cubicle, wooden door, closed window.

If we even accept that the door was in half, the gun is still nearer to the open window, and the screaming still has a cubicle wall on either side to hinder the sound.

It's looking like a big improbability that the screams could be heard above the gunshots.

Roux asked the state to try the test and guaranteed they would not hear anything from inside a toilet cubicle within a house 177m away. As far as I'm aware no test was performed by the PT. If the above details are correct you can see why.

Link

 

[Forensics]

Thank you. An excellent piece with a clear and concise explanation of why the murder charge against OP does not depend on whether he thought it was Reeva or not - which is something a number of FMs have put forward repeatedly.

Yes, I thought it was excellent as well.......one interesting bit I read was that whenever OP could not sleep he got up and fired off his gun at a shooting range... no different this time, except he had a live target. As I said before, if one was to believe his story of an intruder then I believe he wasn't afraid as he says, he was hyped up to shoot at any cost.

 

[jay-jay]

That is true, but below you say the door is already smashed in, and sound would carry out through that smashed-in door and open window. Ms Burger emphasized over and over she heard four gunshots, and knows what they sound like, could not mistake them for anything else.



Are you saying here that both the gun shots and the beating down of the door by the cricket bat had already occurred?




I don't know. Interesting subject to research.

I'm saying that some door panels had been smashed in/broken off before the Burger heard the shots, and that is the reason why she would've heard them.

 

[jay-jay]

BBM

What situation, other than in a movie do you hear of this mocking idea? Once you even accept the idea, you've got to think why he would he shout it out so it could be heard on the next estate 177 metres away. Not for me I'm afraid.

My theory is that the only voices she would have heard are those from outside the house, probably from the balcony.

Ref: Gunshots vs Screams.

A gunshot measures approx. 133dB
Loudest scream ever (world record) 128dB

The conditions for the gunshot are also much favoured.

Gunshot - open window
Screaming - enclosed cubicle, wooden door, closed window.

If we even accept that the door was in half, the gun is still nearer to the open window, and the screaming still has a cubicle wall on either side to hinder the sound.

It's looking like a big improbability that the screams could be heard above the gunshots.

Roux asked the state to try the test and guaranteed they would not hear anything from inside a toilet cubicle within a house 177m away. As far as I'm aware no test was performed by the PT. If the above details are correct you can see why.

Link

BBM - what makes you think I have only heard it in a movie? The reason why I say it could've been mocking is because that is exactly the same thing as my abusive ex used to do to me .. and I would imagine there are many others on here who that also resonates with. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post because it's clear that you don't even want to consider that Burger could possibly have heard those sounds, when actually it's highly likely she did.

 

[BritsKate]

Tee Hee Nastasya, thanks for the movie pics. Are you getting a bit carried away, comparing OP to Johnny?
Johnny's axe looks longer that OP's bat.
So you are disagreeing with both PT and DT, in that the bat came after the shots, and that OP was on his stumps when shooting, and legs when "batting". It would depend on the height of the door and where the panels were, to be accurate about how awkward it would be to reach to the floor to pick up the key. Are you changing the evidence to fit what you believe happened? Aren't we all doing that?
I am still of the frame of mind that OP was NOT running around on his stumps arguing and chasing after Reeva. He would be too insecure of his manhood to do that. That is something I feel quite confident about.

RBBM
That's not what what the State has said. Any bat strikes after gun shots testified to by the State witness were (probably) elicited on cross. Vermeulen assumes it is the cricket bat strikes that broke the door down. (This is of course OP's version.) Nel redirected in order to 'rehabilitate' Vermeulen. (When a lawyer rehabs a witness, they fix any boo-boos made on cross. Or try to. ) In redirect, Vermeulen very clearly stated a sequence between the shots and strikes could not be definitively reached and allowed for both kicking the door and hitting it with the bat (pre-gunshots) to cause fear to someone.

The actual testimony has been posted here on WS many times but the easiest, quickest link I can find is this one:
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2014/03/13/oscar-trial-expert-can-t-fix-sequence-of-shots-bashing

 

[Rumpole]

I'm not much further behind.

Having watched her testimony a few times, There's hardly a doubt in my mind that she prejudged OP after hearing media reports, prior to making a statement. It was suggested that Ms Berger's statement was made about a fortnight after the shooting, however during the testimony Roux mentions it was about a month later.

In Ms Burgers statement to Capt. Van Aardt she mentions nothing of blood-curdling screams, all she tells him is that 'I heard the woman scream, and then shots'. The other additions to the statement are only introduced in the court session.

Ms Burger also claims that she heard OP shout for help before the shots. Why would he do this? If people can't buy into the theory that OP may have sounded like a woman, why should we then buy into a theory that OP mocked Reeva by shouting for help. It's unlikely he would have mocked calling for help, and it's highly unlikely that he would have shouted it at the top of his voice so he could be heard 177 metres away.

In her testimony Ms Burger also claimed that she heard a woman screaming during the 4 gunshots. How can it be that she heard a voice above gunshots? At the time, Reeva was inside a toilet, behind a heavy locked wooden door, with no toilet window open, inside another house which was 177 metres away. The gun was fired next to an open window. We need to also remember that Ms Burger wasn't even on the balcony when she allegedly heard this, she was in bed.

I think Ms Burger did hear 4 bangs that morning. I also believe that the voices she heard were shouts not screams, and these were the shouts of OP. What cannot be mistaken from her testimony is that Ms Burger constantly says the word 'shout' and then quickly corrects it with the word 'scream'. This happens repeatedly - I lost count how many times.

I think most of Ms Berger's testimony is correct regarding the times of the events, but I think she has made up her own mind that OP is guilty, and is substituting shouts for screams.

I don't know the whys and wherefores as to why she should want to do this this, but I can only say it as I see it. It appears she is so sure that OP is guilty that she will not be swayed from her belief, even if the facts show that she cannot be correct.

I agree... and you describe it better than I could.

:tyou:

 

[BritsKate]

I don't think Michelle Burger testified he was on the balcony (she could not have known where the male voice was), only that she claimed she heard a man's voice screaming for help.

A lot of her testimony didn't make much sense to me. I was only reporting on what I listened to last night, because I hadn't been able to listen to any of the ear witnesses testify before.

I look forward to listening to the rest of the ear witnesses. From what I heard from MB, if she is any indication of the unreliability of "ear witnesses," this case will not be determined by those "ear witness" reports, but by OP's actions themselves, and maybe some of the forensic evidence, if it clearly was not tampered with (like the changed-around objects in the photos show; they prove that fans and the gun, at least, were moved).

RBBM

I really do believe that's a ruse by Roux to make it appear the scene was 'contaminated, tampered, disturbed'. If there were really this elaborate plan to implicate OP, don't you think the police would have buried the evidence that anything even was moved? Some items necessitated moving for photographs (as testified to) but there are photographs of the crime scene before anything was touched...further, the items 'moved' in OP's testimony would had to have been moved by the police before they even knew his version of events. All they knew at the point of the photographs is he'd shot Reeva, whom he'd thought was an intruder. That was it.

I'm not saying the crime scene was kept pristine when obviously it wasn't. I just don't buy this master plan of corruption and ineptitude Roux is trying to sell either.

JMO and FWIW

 

[Forensics]

Just WOW!!! re your revelation about the door not being locked. Now that's a first, but highly relevant. That'll keep us going for the next week.

Pictures of the shining really bring it home how terrifying it must have been for RS that night. Also show graphically how OP was a madman.

Yes, and to add to this scenario, what if Reeva was trying to leave as Oscar was in a rage so she ran into the bathroom to put on her jeans but in the process of doing so heard him coming towards her so she opened up the bathroom window and threw her jeans out so as to retrieve them when she escaped the house, then afraid ran into the toilet cubicle... and held the door shut whilst he approached... yes, I know you've heard it all before...

 

[crasshopper]

BIB. I see no reason to disbelieve Dr. Saymaan either Jake. So in fairness, is it responsible for some forum members to take what he said (paraphrasing), "Reeva would have died in a few minutes", and make that out to be "Reeva would have died in nine (9) minutes?"

rbsm

Just who exactly said "Reeva would have died in nine (9) minutes?"

...because I certainly didn't, nor did I commit to a time.

 

[Greater Than]

I'm so stuck on that bathroom window:facepalm: From this photo it does not look like OP had a screen in it, not found on ground, or in bathroom. And screens make alot of noise removing them.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/1.png

Why would Reeva open a window with no screen on the way to the bathroom? Does SA have no birds? I have never heard OP say anything about his doorwall having a screen when his doorwall was open . Do people in SA sleep with windows and doorwalls open with no screens to keep the birds and cats, squirrels, bats, creepy crawley's out? Just curious

no ladder to window with no screen. Therefore IMO he could not have heard anyone breaking in.:liar:

And why would a intruder pick a gated, heavily security monitored community with 2 cars at the home and choose to enter through a upstairs room. too much coffee, too many thoughts.

IMO Reeva didn't open the bathroom window. I believe it was open the whole night, just like the sliding balcony door in the bedroom. The AC wasn't working, so they had both the window and sliding door open for ventilation.

In OP's bail affidavit, he merely said he heard "a noise" in the bathroom. Then in his plea statement, that noise morphed into "the window sliding open." Fast forward to his trial testimony, it became the window "slamming against the frame." The "slamming" aspect was a nice touch to reinforce the alleged panic he was struck with and to justify immediately arming himself.

The window was of course open when police arrived at the scene. (It had been open the whole night.) IMO, OP is now claiming the noise he heard was the window opening in an effort to support his assumption that an intruder had climbed through it. If he had admitted that the window was already open, his only reasoning for thinking an intruder was in his bathroom would have been the ladders left by the contractors. That's too much of a stretch, so he conveniently tailored his account of the event to fit with the physical evidence of the window being open, and to add credence to his intruder theory.

MOO

 

[Rumpole]

Vermuelen - Jack Black

I was NOT intending to join in with movie casting, but.....

Vermuelen looks (and behaved) exactly like Ricky Gervais... perhaps not so well known to US audiences, though he has had parts in Hollywood movies. I am thinking of RG in the original UK "The Office" TV series, which was his original concept, he co-wrote and stared in it.