Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[steveml]

Legally, the State has a case for murder. They would be doing a disservice to Reeva, her family, and all homicide victims in South Africa not to attempt a conviction for murder.

Charging a lesser offence; plea bargaining - those are events that occur when the State doesn't have the evidence to prove a higher charge. If Oscar didn't testify, he would most likely be convicted of murder. Simply because there would be no mitigation for requisite intent.

It isn't the prosecutors job to predict what a defendant's defence will be and charge accordingly. Had Oscar been wearing his prosthetics, on stumps, or even with his own natural legs had he been born with them - the charge would have been the same - because black and white, they have legal grounds to do so. No less, no more.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I guess we'll only know that after the trial is over. I'd hope not to see a plea bargain in any case like this.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I wonder if some of the initial "sounds" that were heard was maybe related to some toilet door slamming going on before. IMO door slamming would also result in the small wall tiles that overlapped the door frame to fell off on the left outside and right inside (not seen). The door was pivoting on the left side and when it was swung close hard and stop their would be and opposing force towards the outside on the left that might have knocked the tiles off. I find it hard to believe that those rigid panels (that is normally fitted to the rails and styles of the door with a tongue type of joint would be whacked out with only the two tor three bat strikes according to marks on door.

Other interesting facts: The solid panels inside these doors are glued up from thinner pieces say 4-5 inches wide. I do woodwork as a hobby and have on some occasions dropped similar panels onto a flat surface on one face. Result is that it breaks at several of the glue line because of the rigidness of the cured glue. So slamming would dislodge the constituting pieces of the panels from each other making it easier to remove them without much effort or sound. Just another scenario. Of course the door could have been kicked close as well...

However for the door to be successfully slammed either the toilet window had to be open or there would have needed to be hole in the door already to vent the trapped air created by door.

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

 

[jay-jay]

You can only see under the bed at the end of the bed facing photographer. There are platforms along both sides of bed and no underneath.

Not sure if this is the bed he had at the time he shot Reeva, but it does actually have a gap under the side, as well as at the end ..

http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1709041.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Oscar Pistorius-1709041.jpg

.. but, as I said earlier, being one of those low Japanese style ones, there isn't exactly a huge amount of clearance underneath them and I would think it would be quite difficult faffing around groping about down there trying to locate a gun .. and why would he even put it there, in a more difficult to reach place, when it appears he normally puts it on his lamp table stand thingy?

 

[steveml]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

That makes sense, yep, once the door is unlocked it can only move in the direction towards the loo.

If the tiles came off under stress, that could most likely be from a kick (or similar) to the front right, whilst the door was locked.

:thumb:

 

[jay-jay]

.. although this photo, taken as part of the crime scene evidence, does seem to be a different bed .. even to the one of those pix of the guns on the lamp stand, because the lamp stand in the crime scene ones is different ..

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjARo9PCcAAWOTi.jpg:medium

Has anyone actually seen any other pix of the bed he had at the time of the shooting, from the side? The only ones I've seen are of the bedside table and from the end (which you can see under) .. I can't find one which confirms the sides of the bed were blocked in or not. I can't see them being totally blocked right to the ground though, as he would've known that and surely wouldn't have said he'd put his gun under the bed?

 

[soozieqtips]

Botha, the chief pathologist in Free State province,
did not take part in the postmortem on 29-year-old Steenkamp but is likely to raise questions over the evidence of the state pathologist Professor Gert Saayman.

If he wasn't even at the postmortem, is he going to interpret the results based on another pathologist's testimony and not his own?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-resumes-pathologist

 

[Duchy]

This fan thing is ridiculous IMO. I've read that at that time on that night it was 62 degrees Fahrenheit = 17 degrees Celsius. If he's cold why not just close the door, leaving the fans alone? Not sure why the fans got placed in the web of lies.

He had to account for enough time and also having his back to Reeva getting out of bed and going to the loo without him noticing.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

Here is a crime scene photo which shows the door opening outwards. I am sure it didn't swing both ways. If it had opened inwards it would, I think, hit the toilet bowl itself. HTH

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

Most pictures I have seen seem to show that the door opens into the bathroom is that what you mean ? Inwards into the bathroom

 

[jay-jay]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

I read that somewhere too, yesterday (guess it must've been a link on here, if we both read it at the same time!) that the toilet door opened inwards .. but I'm 99.9% sure it doesn't, from the pix I've seen of the crime scene.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Botha, the chief pathologist in Free State province,
did not take part in the postmortem on 29-year-old Steenkamp but is likely to raise questions over the evidence of the state pathologist Professor Gert Saayman.

If he wasn't even at the postmortem, is he going to interpret the results based on another pathologist's testimony and not his own?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-resumes-pathologist

I would love to know whether the defence pathologist that actually attended will also give evidence at some point . If not that is a big red flag to me but maybe it could be explained tomorrow .

 

[Cherwell]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

That was in a Mirror report. It made me suspicious about the accuracy of everything else in the article, because photos clearly show the door opening outwards.

 

[Duchy]

Not sure if this is the bed he had at the time he shot Reeva, but it does actually have a gap under the side, as well as at the end ..

http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1709041.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Oscar Pistorius-1709041.jpg

.. but, as I said earlier, being one of those low Japanese style ones, there isn't exactly a huge amount of clearance underneath them and I would think it would be quite difficult faffing around groping about down there trying to locate a gun .. and why would he even put it there, in a more difficult to reach place, when it appears he normally puts it on his lamp table stand thingy?

Isn't that the end of the bed though-where his legs are? Also the bed is in a different position with end facing balcony doors isn't it? Sofa in different position too?

 

[Duchy]

That makes sense, yep, once the door is unlocked it can only move in the direction towards the loo.

If the tiles came off under stress, that could most likely be from a kick (or similar) to the front right, whilst the door was locked.

:thumb:

Door opened outwards according to floorplan. Sorry can't post links as am using chromebook.

 

[jay-jay]

It only seems to take him a split second to put them on, too .. I saw it on a video somewhere yesterday .. I'll see if I can find it again and post it up.

It's here, at 3:25 in ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4KHj3gjCBU

(.. the rest of that video is extremely interesting too .. well worth watching the whole thing)

 

[Duchy]

12 hours to go lol

 

[jay-jay]

Isn't that the end of the bed though-where his legs are? Also the bed is in a different position with end facing balcony doors isn't it? Sofa in different position too?

Yes, you're absolutely right .. (it's probably a totally different house, too! :facepalm::blushing: ) I can't seem to find any pix which confirms the side is blocked in, though. I think it's just the angle of the one of the side table which makes it appear that the side is blocked in, but I'm not sure it actually is?

 

[jay-jay]

12 hours to go lol

Yep ..

.. I hope he enjoyed his Sunday lunch ... wonder what prison roast potatoes are like ..? :jail:

 

[jay-jay]

BIB

I agree with this.

Yet to me none of the story even needs to be there, it's too over-complicated. If you didn't see someone in bed, there's no way to prove you didn't see anyone in bed. You just say 'I thought Reeva was still in bed'.

The fact of speaking to Reeva gives me the indication that she was awake, and therefore there was more reason to expect her to possibly go to the loo.

'It was dark, heard a noise in bathroom, got gun, shouted back to Reva, saw bathroom window open, heard noise from toilet, shot 4 times at door, realized Reeva hadn't responded to my shout, went back, realized Reeva wasn't in bed'.

OP can put Reeva's sandals at the side of bed furthest away as cover-up, and that's all the story requires.

Adding details of patio, fan, sleeping on other side of bed, leaving phones in bathroom, cosmetic bag, are all things to arouse suspicion. Then going back and adding more details to the statement seem even more baffling if your intention is to lie. A story that revolves around going to sleep and waking up seems less believable the more things you add to it IMO.

Precisely .. this is why methinks that the lady doeth protesteth to mucheth ..! :jail:

 

[Cherwell]

Strange, the post I was replying to has disappeared.
Sorry for graphic image, but it settles the question of which way the door opens.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-leaked-in-oscar-pistorius-case-2013-5