Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html

Family members said the delay has been difficult for the 27-year-old, as he was as he was “all geared up” to face the court.
Pistorius claims he fatally shot girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp by mistake thinking she was an intruder in his home. But because he has admitted to killing her, legal experts say Pistorius needs to explain why in court.
Pistorius testifying will be crucial to his defense against the murder charge because it allows the judge to determine his credibility. There is no trial by jury in South Africa so Pistorius has the chance to convince Judge Thokozile Masipa and her two assessors that he did not intend to kill his girlfriend, and is not guilty of murder.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'd expect so Gb. Even if it's only to clarify the margin of error possible regarding the time of Reeva's last meal.

Roux touched on this, but they'll probably want to push the point further.

The defence really need this meal evidence squashed or at least doubted .
It did occurr to me the other day that although there can be varying time limits there must be something specific that made the state pathologist go for no more than 2 hours so will be listening closely tomorrow .

 

[Viper]

Thanks for the info. I had read the other day that he did attend but I think you are right. I would tend to think that he will comment on the more arguable aspects of the postmortem, ie food in stomach, whether anyone can scream after a headshot. If he was not at the post mortem he will not be able to answer questions. Maybe that was a clever ruse by Roux. I think I read the Reggie Perumal was broadly in agreement with the state's report. I think videos of the incident should not be allowed. OP should be made to relive what happened and give his version. Too easy to get someone else to tell the story.

BIB That may be, but a year ago after the autopsy Reggie said that Reeva died while going to the loo to pee because her bladder was completely empty - we now know that was a lie. And he said that Reeva died on the staircase, which is a lie woven in to OP's fairy tale to make it look like Reeva was alive all of that time for whatever nefarious reason(s). The later goes against the Professor that did the autopsy as he noted that after the headshot Reeve only breathed 2-3 breaths. And the former goes against the Professor as he said she went to the bathroom maybe an hour before death. Reggie is not a Professor with an academic reputation to protect, he is a hired gun and will likely say anything to make OP's story work out.

 

[Duchy]

I must let you in to a secret. I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent but....but....I wouldn't have known.....that if I shot at that door.....er.....that the bullets would have gone through it and not just stuck in it.....I mean....if I was trying to frighten the person inside the loo.....go on all have a good laugh lol.

PS I don't know anything about guns.:couch::whistle:

 

[Feynman]

I must let you in to a secret. I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent but....but....I wouldn't have known.....that if I shot at that door.....er.....that the bullets would have gone through it and not just stuck in it.....I mean....if I was trying to frighten the person inside the loo.....go on all have a good laugh lol.

But OP did know.

 

[Viper]

Testis Compositum is some kind homeopathic "remedy". Nothing to see here folks, literally.

BIB. So anyone can walk in to the local vitamin - nutritional supplement store and buy this pig testicle compound in sterile vials, and a grab a bag of sterile syringes, no rx needed, head back home and inject themselves, I am assuming intra muscular?

Does not sound like a "homeopathic remedy." Not at all. To me it sounds like a performance enhancing drug.

 

[Val1]

.. although this photo, taken as part of the crime scene evidence, does seem to be a different bed .. even to the one of those pix of the guns on the lamp stand, because the lamp stand in the crime scene ones is different ..

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjARo9PCcAAWOTi.jpg:medium

Has anyone actually seen any other pix of the bed he had at the time of the shooting, from the side? The only ones I've seen are of the bedside table and from the end (which you can see under) .. I can't find one which confirms the sides of the bed were blocked in or not. I can't see them being totally blocked right to the ground though, as he would've known that and surely wouldn't have said he'd put his gun under the bed?

Unless he meant in one of those under the bed drawers.

 

[Insp.Dots]

My POV is they had to add a fan being brought in and OP speaking with Reeva to his statement to make his story more believable.

Adding that he had spoken to her makes sense, but adding that a second fan was brought in seems so inconsequential. Why bother to add it to his statement unless there was a specific reason?

- It would take him a little longer to bring in two fans...more time to "not notice" that Reeva had gotten up to go to the loo.

- He had to say he spoke with Reeva so she was awake enough to go to the loo during the time of him moving the fans.

It's hard to work out what could be lies and the why's and where's in this case isn't it.

When I try and look at it I have different notions of what was said.
For example; the Statement may have simply had a typo and someone left an 'S' off fan, or as has been said it may just give him longer, but then if that's the case Why add he had recently spoken to Reeva, but then not notice her in the bed or assume she's in the toilet?

When I look at most previous cases, when the case is finished you can make sense of things, but you find there are almost always a mix of lies and truth.

The key, I think is to work out or get rid of the ones that have no affect on the case. Then work out the basis of the statement, what a normal, reasonable person may say in those circumstances.

This in OP's case really isn't that easy as he seems to have an air of superiority, things that we consider everyday are different to him. We have seen how the Family have almost staged, their appearances and statements.

It seems to me most of Oscar's life, he has someone, whether it be a friend, family member, manager, coach or Lawyer that solves his problems for him and as he was rich and privileged that even went on in his home life.
He hardly had to think about anything for himself, the only thing he could do on his own was run!

All this makes me think that sometimes we are looking way too hard at somethings. OP is great at passing the buck, is arrogant and has a superiority in his attitude. I watched him in the Olympics and was impressed to start with, until the race in the Paralympics where he was beaten.......there was no hesitation he immediately shouted that the winner was a cheat...it was instant.

Then he stormed off during an interview, again no hesitation.
Piers Morgan said he was absolutely charming when the camera was on but a different person when it went off.

People who had known him years, said they had seen a change in him (before Reevas death).
He was very generous to his inner circle, I doubt he had many close friends before he became famous.

He soon learnt that with his money and fame came popularity. If he needed something, he flashed his wallet and got whatever he wanted. In fact, he also learned that he didn't even need the money, he could use his Fame. People bowed down to him, they allowed him to live like a King. The more he got away with the more dangerous he became. But none of that makes him a Murderer, we all know obnoxious, arrogant people. We may avoid them but we are rarely scared of them.

I genuinely believe that whatever lies he is telling (If they are lies) they will stand out a mile when he is in the box.
He may have practiced for months and been prepared by the best but they can't change his 'Basic Instincts or reactions'.....if he is paranoid, it will show, if he lies or is acting it will also show....and if he riles in anyway during cross examination it will be massive.

SO to me, in my little corner of Cornwall where you can still leave a back door unlocked (though I don't) in my very humble opinion, whether Oscar Pistorius is Guilty of Intentional Murder or not....it WILL show when he takes the stand this week.

The only thing I am totally sure of in this case is that Judge Masipa will not be swayed by charm, emotion or public opinion, she will make her judgement on facts that have been proven and Justice will be done.:twocents:

It has been a great case to follow and I'm glad we have had proper debate. It would have been very boring if everyone just nodded along and agreed. Like Steve has said not one person has said OP is Not Guilty:jail:

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB. So anyone can walk in to the local vitamin - nutritional supplement store and buy this pig testicle compound in sterile vials, and a grab a bag of sterile syringes, no rx needed, head back home and inject themselves, I am assuming intra muscular?

Does not sound like a "homeopathic remedy." Not at all. To me it sounds like a performance enhancing drug.

Easy enough to buy over the counter or on-line; even the injectable that OP used.

http://www.versandapo.de/en/9332/1676082/TESTIS-COMPOSITUM-N-Ampullen.htm

 

[G.bng]

That makes sense, yep, once the door is unlocked it can only move in the direction towards the loo.

If the tiles came off under stress, that could most likely be from a kick (or similar) to the front right, whilst the door was locked.

:thumb:

Sorry, the myriad of crime scene photos show that the toilet door opens outwards and from the left facing the viewer. That is the norm in most countries I think. It is so that if anyone collapses in the toilet their body cannot prevent the door from opening. Common sense really... no more than common sense.

 

[G.bng]

.. although this photo, taken as part of the crime scene evidence, does seem to be a different bed .. even to the one of those pix of the guns on the lamp stand, because the lamp stand in the crime scene ones is different ..

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjARo9PCcAAWOTi.jpg:medium

Has anyone actually seen any other pix of the bed he had at the time of the shooting, from the side? The only ones I've seen are of the bedside table and from the end (which you can see under) .. I can't find one which confirms the sides of the bed were blocked in or not. I can't see them being totally blocked right to the ground though, as he would've known that and surely wouldn't have said he'd put his gun under the bed?

Don't know how you see it as a different bed to Duchy's post when imo it is clearly the same bed.

 

[G.bng]

That was in a Mirror report. It made me suspicious about the accuracy of everything else in the article, because photos clearly show the door opening outwards.

I have been re-visiting reports, animations, etc. from the time, i.e. feb 2013, and I was amazed at how many put the toilet door as opening inwards, i.e. towards the toilet. I have always thought how the one advantage developing countries have over those from the old world is that they can learn by our mistakes and not their own. Toilet doors in new builds have long been obliged to open outwards in western countries. The reason is obvious.

 

[Viper]

.. although this photo, taken as part of the crime scene evidence, does seem to be a different bed .. even to the one of those pix of the guns on the lamp stand, because the lamp stand in the crime scene ones is different ..

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjARo9PCcAAWOTi.jpg:medium

Has anyone actually seen any other pix of the bed he had at the time of the shooting, from the side? The only ones I've seen are of the bedside table and from the end (which you can see under) .. I can't find one which confirms the sides of the bed were blocked in or not. I can't see them being totally blocked right to the ground though, as he would've known that and surely wouldn't have said he'd put his gun under the bed?

Hi JayJay! I am very bad when it comes to furniture / decorating, but here is my guess:

To my eyes the two beds are in fact the same bed. OP rearranged the furniture in his bedroom after the interview was done. Back then he had the night table turned lengthwise parallel to the bed (like this: | |). Since the bed is now on the back wall there is more room so he turned it to the proper way (like this: - |).

 

[steveml]

If anybody's wondering if we'll get to see a defense witness list prior to trial.

The law dictates that the prosecution witness list is made available to defense prior to trial, but defense don't have to provide prosecution with a witness list.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Sorry, the myriad of crime scene photos show that the toilet door opens outwards and from the left facing the viewer. That is the norm in most countries I think. It is so that if anyone collapses in the toilet their body cannot prevent the door from opening. Common sense really... no more than common sense.

Sorry, that's my fault if that's the case as I'd read it opened inwards. Sorry I'm on a Kindle and can't do links. Obviously another 'bad report' :blushing:

 

[DebinGA]

If anybody's wondering if we'll get to see a defense witness list prior to trial.

The law dictates that the prosecution witness list is made available to defense prior to trial, but defense don't have to provide prosecution with a witness list.

I believe you, but that sounds ridiculous. Does each side at least get the experts' reports, visuals, witness statements, etc. beforehand?

 

[steveml]

Sorry, the myriad of crime scene photos show that the toilet door opens outwards and from the left facing the viewer. That is the norm in most countries I think. It is so that if anyone collapses in the toilet their body cannot prevent the door from opening. Common sense really... no more than common sense.

Thanks, it all makes sense now.

When I had another look at the door, it would have been really awkward to get in if it went inwards. It would mean you would need to skirt round the door to reach the loo.

It's that Daily Mirror again :wink:

 

[Feynman]

BIB. So anyone can walk in to the local vitamin - nutritional supplement store and buy this pig testicle compound in sterile vials, and a grab a bag of sterile syringes, no rx needed, head back home and inject themselves, I am assuming intra muscular?

Does not sound like a "homeopathic remedy." Not at all. To me it sounds like a performance enhancing drug.

You can tell just from the labeling (for the injectable version) that it's homeopathic:Testis suis D4, Embryo suis D8, Glandula suprarenalis suis D13, Kalium picrinicum D6, Ginseng D4, Damiana D8, etc.

D4 means, in homeopathy land, 1 part in 10^4 = 10,000, D13 means 1 part in 10^13 = 10 trillion (I kid you not) ...

See http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkroll/2013/03/01/testis-compositum-pistorius-medicine-not-medicine/

 

[jay-jay]

Hi JayJay! I am very bad when it comes to furniture / decorating, but here is my guess:

To my eyes the two beds are in fact the same bed. OP rearranged the furniture in his bedroom after the interview was done. Back then he had the night table turned lengthwise parallel to the bed (like this: | |). Since the bed is now on the back wall there is more room so he turned it to the proper way (like this: - |).

Thanks, Viper .. yes, that's probably it .. the bedside tables in the crime scene photos look different to the ones in the magazine photo shoot though (not that that makes any difference to the bed necessarily, but it almost looks like the one in the photoshoot is part of the bed .. yet in the crime scene one, it's separate and looks quite different, different lamp too, whereas the photoshoot one appears to be part of the bedside table/bed .. so I'm not entirely sure it's the same bed .. surely there must be some more pix of the bed somewhere, just so that we can be sure?!)

 

[Insp.Dots]

Botha, the chief pathologist in Free State province,
did not take part in the postmortem on 29-year-old Steenkamp but is likely to raise questions over the evidence of the state pathologist Professor Gert Saayman.

If he wasn't even at the postmortem, is he going to interpret the results based on another pathologist's testimony and not his own?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-resumes-pathologist

Yes, I said the same in an earlier thread. It was suggested it is to dispute the first shot or the meal that was eaten. I also noticed that Perumel, the pathologist who had attended autopsy did a lot of interviews in the press and on TV, maybe that turned out to be a bad idea.