GUILTY TX - Alanna Gallagher, 6, Saginaw, 1 July 2013 - #12

[intrepid]

""Officers engaged the suspect at the door," Chaumont said. "An altercation ensued, the suspect produced the weapon and shots were fired."

A neighbor said she heard three shots fired.

"I heard 'pow,' and then there was a pause and I heard 'pow, pow,'" said Janice Hobbs."

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/offi...t-of-gallagher-home-in-saginaw-216586751.html

- If one looks at the front door, from inside, it opens inward, from right to left.
The outer storm door, opens outward, towards the street, from left to right, facing it from the outside.
I assume the officers already had the storm door open.
Think body mechanics, assuming all were right handed, and reacting swiftly, instinctually.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Relatively OT, but does anybody know if it's protocol to shoot to kill in a situation like that? Is that ever protocol, or does LE always err on the side of "incapacitate only," barring bad aim?

I would assume it's in the state's best interest to keep the suspect alive, but I guess in situations like that the life of LE is prioritized and the only way to truly guarantee that is to kill the shooter..

I guess I'm just curious if TH's injury was a result of a missed fatal shot, or the result of a perfect shot (in that it didn't kill).

They shoot to kill.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm actually shocked they didn't just open fire after the first was shot and Holder was still armed.

 

[pferrin]

I had thought 3 shots were fired. Was that misreporting? If so where did the other shot go?

I have heard nothing more of the 3rd shot. I heard/ read there was 3 shots yet we don't know where it went. Imo

 

[human]

LE doesn't have a protocol where they shoot just to incapacitate but not kill.

I don't know about other places, but recently we had someone killed by an officer. It was made clear to the public that LE shoot to kill. To incapaitate means the perp could live to inflict more damage. LE does not have time to monkey around.

They rarely use weapons here and it takes a huge toll on the officers when they do.

They have to make split second decisions. I imagine there is discussion before they set out on scenarios and what to do

 

[SCHMAE]

Can a lawyer instruct the client to just plead guilty in order to prevent a trial that is obviously guilty?

Is that legal?

He can instruct because the client can do whatever he wants. He can advise him there is no way in he** he will be acquitted though and that his best bet is a guilty plea.

 

[GingerzMomma]

I stand corrected: asked my hub & he said most LE carry .40 or .45. It's military that has 9 mm. Sorry about that!

 

[ahintexas]

I stand corrected: asked my hub & he said most LE carry .40 or .45. It's military that has 9 mm. Sorry about that!

I think maybe it depends? My mom carried a glock 9 mm

 

[jjenny]

Another thing I was thinking about is, if the officer was shot in the groin and the bullet is lodged in his hip, that sounds like the gun was fired from an upward angle.
If they were struggling they might have gone down and he fired up.
Another reason why a defence attorney might go for a not guilty plea in the shooting would be to say that her clients intent was to shoot himself, in the struggle the gun went off, he was not intentionally shooting at the officer.

His defense can try, but I sure don't believe it's going to fly. Too bad he is a minor. I fully believe if he was not a minor, he'd fry, considering he is in TX and they actually carry out the death penalty.

 

[jjenny]

I don't know about other places, but recently we had someone killed by an officer. It was made clear to the public that LE shoot to kill. To incapaitate means the perp could live to inflict more damage. LE does not have time to monkey around.

They rarely use weapons here and it takes a huge toll on the officers when they do.

They have to make split second decisions. I imagine there is discussion before they set out on scenarios and what to do

It's same everywhere. If LE shoots, they shoot to kill.

 

[jjenny]

I guess a neighbor said that three shot were fired.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/offi...t-of-gallagher-home-in-saginaw-216586751.html

In Zimmerman's trial, there was only one shoot. Some neighbors claimed there were multiple shots. They were mistaken.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I think what pistol LE carries varies state to state and department to department. I researched this question recently when I was buying my own handgun, and there are widely varying 'regulation' weapons. 9mm, .45, .40 seem to be the most common answers.

Even within a single department, individual officers may have a choice of make/caliber, or that's how I read this link when I was doing my research:

http://www.seattle.gov/police/publications/manual/09_120_Firearms.html

E. Authorized Pistols
Smith and Wesson
Sig Sauer
Beretta
Ruger
Glock

Caliber
.380 cal. (for off duty or secondary handgun only)
9 mm
.40 S & W
.45 ACP

Appearance
Frame, barrel and cylinder will be a dark or stainless steel color with non-reflective finish. Stocks will be of wood or synthetic material with a dark color.

(The Glock shall have a consistent trigger pull of at least 5.5 or more pounds. Officers assigned to the SWAT Team are authorized to have a consistent trigger pull of 5.5 or more pounds.)

F. Authorized Revolvers
Double Action
Smith and Wesson
Ruger
Colt

Caliber
.38 Special
.357 Magnum*
.45 ACP (Smith and Wesson only)

Barrel length
2 inch - special assignment use only
4 inch
6 inch

Appearance
Frame, barrel and cylinder will be a dark or stainless steel color with non-reflective finish. Stocks will be of wood or synthetic material with a dark color.
* Officers electing to carry .357 ammunition must receive authorization from the Deputy Chief of Administration or designee and qualify the .357 revolver with a minimum of 85% of the maximum score and must maintain this score during subsequent qualifications to continue carrying .357 ammunition. Officers are required to purchase their own Department specified .357 Magnum duty and qualification ammunition.

(I ended up buying a Ruger LC9.)

 

[Backwoods]

Suffocation being one of the causes of death is likely the reason why the ME has not confirmed COD yet, as I suspected. She likely had many injuries that could have lead to her death, IMO.

I'm worried about the kitchen chair. When she was found, the father used the term propped up, and thought she was a rubber doll, not real. Was she in rigor mortis and in a seated position inside of the tarp? Did he use the kitchen chair to penetrate himself and her? Sorry to post that.

bbm: I was one of the ones who considered this possibility earlier, but I think the consensus was that the father of the boy who found Alanna actually said "tarped up", not "propped up". Of course, still a possibility, but we have no real evidence pointing toward that, IMO.

"Kitchen chair" is very specific. Some possibilities I can think of:

(1) chair appeared in a photo LE saw, being used in an unusual manner

(2) a neighbor, acquaintance, etc. gave some type of specific information that gave LE reason to look specifically for a "kitchen chair" -- knew of him using one in an unusual manner before, saw him carrying one away from the house, noticed a lone kitchen chair outside in the neighborhood in an odd spot, etc.

(3) a kitchen chair was found at another site possibly related to the crime and LE wanted to see if there are matching chairs (since they often come in sets) at TH's home


ETA: Anyhow, it appears from the warrant return that they did not take a chair, correct?

 

[GingerzMomma]

So, while we're on the topic of guns, thoughts around the CHL application found in KH's car?

I have one. Self-defense really is not the premise that the state of TX issues these for, and once you have one you are actually held at a higher level of accountability in the event you use it......

 

[Backwoods]

So, while we're on the topic of guns, thoughts around the CHL application found in KH's car?

I have one. Self-defense really is not the premise that the state of TX issues these for, and once you have one you are actually held at a higher level of accountability in the event you use it......

What is the premise? (Curious.)

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

In Zimmerman's trial, there was only one shoot. Some neighbors claimed there were multiple shots. They were mistaken.

In support of this, I think I've read something about how common it is that people misremembering or mishearing the number of shots fired. I'm sorry, no link, I don't remember where although it may have been one of Elisabeth Loftus' books about eyewitness testimony.

I'm sorry, I've had mysterious hives off and in all weekend, and I've taken Benadryl, which I rarely do, and now I feel very loopy, I'm sorry I don't have a link or remember my source.

 

[Backwoods]

Feel better, PlainJaneDoe!

And I know, with your background in science, I don't need to remind you, but -- scrutinize any new meds you may be taking. Some really nasty reactions start out that way.

 

[pferrin]

I think what pistol LE carries varies state to state and department to department. I researched this question recently when I was buying my own handgun, and there are widely varying 'regulation' weapons. 9mm, .45, .40 seem to be the most common answers.

Even within a single department, individual officers may have a choice of make/caliber, or that's how I read this link when I was doing my research:

http://www.seattle.gov/police/publications/manual/09_120_Firearms.html



(I ended up buying a Ruger LC9.)

MOM??? lol

 

[floridamomma]

That officer is a hero IMO. Didn't an original MSM say that three shots were fired? If Officer Lodatto tackled TH when he pulled the gun and TH shot the officer in the groin and the officer shot him from some odd angle, this could explain why TH wasn't killed outright. However, if the second shot came from another officer, you would think they would aim for the head due to the struggle which would definitely result in brain damage.

ETA: just read the article a second time:



How would he hit him in a way to not cause brain damage?

hubby is a firefighter/medic, im shocked (used to be, anyway) how many people survive gunshots to the head. a girl up the road was shot in the side of her head, lost both eyes but lived and functions ok, aside from being blind. it's not as uncommon as i used to believe.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Feel better, PlainJaneDoe!

And I know, with your background in science, I don't need to remind you, but -- scrutinize any new meds you may be taking. Some really nasty reactions start out that way.

Thank you, yes, I haven't got anything new for a while. My mom thinks it is a sensitivity to strawberries!