TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered his apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018 #3

[DisturbedConcerned]

Can facebook screen shots of dallas government officials' pages be posted?

 

[Thora_Jay]

I am surprised by the fact that a majority of the people that I brought up this case to at work, in line at the grocery store ect said the same thing basically.
The words “I think of my child”, “I think of my brother or sister”.
I never said them that I had thought that could have been my son before they offered their reply.

They are all truly disturbed and disgusted that this even took place, especially by an individual that was chosen to be a member of an “Elite” force. I was asked by more than a few how she ended up being the chosen one.

No answer from me due to the fact that I wonder the same.

One gentleman stated that his teen son is a hair over 6 feet tall. He stated that he is sure his son would have been shell shocked if he was relaxed at home watching tv in the dark, not expecting anyone at all and a person in the blink of an eye, opened the door, barked orders in the dark and then shot him as he approached to see what the hell was happening at that moment, not having any time to register what was happening in his own home.
He said he would fight until the day he died to ensure that the self induced mind altered woman was removed from society for her natural life.
I had goosebumps when he spoke. He spoke to me as if Botham were his own son. He was very emotional. That gentleman was one that I spoke to in line at the grocery store. He touched me the most. I had never heard the words “self induced mind altered woman” before.

So with that, is there anyone else here that thinks of their own child, relative or friend when they think of Botham?

 

[mickey2942]

This case scares me, because it could happen to anyone. What concerns me the most, is the absolute lack of accountability. This officer was treated as if this shooting occurred while investigating a crime. She received special treatment, she was not arrested, held, charged. As anyone else would have been treated.

That is the slippery slope to a police state. Mr. Jean's rights were violated, he was in his own home, doing no crime, an officer storms in, shouts commands, and shoots him.

If this officer does not get a prison sentence, be very afraid, because this could happen to you.

And, I do wonder if there is a racial component here...if the Killer had stormed into our home, I think the outrage would have been even more, she would have killed a 100% service connected disabled veteran, who is blind and deaf, my husband. As for myself, she would have had some major issues as well.

 

[Thora_Jay]

This is in the news today. Very tragic for the man that was killed.

I cannot help but think, due to this article, will Guyger all of a sudden claim some medical issue besides “being tired”? Even though it is still not proven that Botham’s door was unlocked.


Please no disrespect to the deceased man, but since this just happened, will Guyger’s Attorney claim something to that effect soon?
Citing used for her would most likely be “unusual behavior for the night of the killing”.

Home owner, 71, kills man who walked into unlocked home.

Homeowner, 71, kills man who walked into unlocked home
Family members have told police Miller suffered from seizures, which have led to unusual behavior, Tobias said. It’s unclear at this time whether Miller suffered a seizure before entering Barbour’s home.

 

[mickey2942]

Chief says she can't fire Amber Guyger over Botham Jean. DPD general orders say otherwise

I would like to know what "laws" prevent the immediate discharge of a LEO who kills someone off duty, in his own home. Because if there are actual LAWS, that is a problem.

And if there are not actual LAWS, which I can tell you that as far as I know, there are not any, there is another problem here.

LEO cannot be above the law. And does anyone really want the Killer to be a LEO? Carrying a weapon? Jeez, do a psych evaluation, and recommend termination based on inability to pay attention. Can't dispute that!

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

I've often questioned training methods and at this point, it may be too late to change the years of media desensitizing as to how police business should work.

Get arrested and most instantly think, ya shouldn't have been comitting a crime. This blanket judgment is often passed by many without asking, who or what exactly did this arrested person injure or harm? Society has been well trained to disregard in this country one is presumed innocent until cleanly proven guilty without fraud or concealment.

Obviously AG is certainly guilty of taking the life of Botham Jean (RIP) yet there is no certainty she will have to actually be accountable. It's not a done deal.

We give absolute immunity to judges and DA's who know they can get away with just about anything and be untouched. The qualified immunity given to all other public servants, like police officers, may as well be absolute in to many instances.

 

[Spellbound]

These threads move too fast for me to read every one, but I do not recall any discussion of Texas' Castle Doctrine.

* The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas article from 2016
What exactly is the Castle Doctrine? When Can Deadly Force be used for Self Defense Purposes?
In Texas, Section 9 of the Texas Penal Code provides legal justifications for the use of force in a limited set of circumstances when a person has no duty to retreat. For example, a homeowner in his own home does not have a duty to retreat and may use deadly force to protect himself against an armed intruder. This would be the same for a business owner in his place of business and a truck driver in his own truck.

Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary;
2. Had a legal right to be on the property;
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used; and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used.

Protection of One’s Own Property
Under Texas Penal Code §9.42, a person may use deadly force against another to protect land or property if:

1. He is the owner of the land;
2. He reasonably believes using the force is immediately necessary to prevent arson, burglary, or robbery; and
3. He reasonably believes that the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means.

---
* Texas Penal Code - PENAL - PENAL § 9.31 | FindLaw
Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 9.31. Self-Defense
----
* https://www.brodenmickelsen.com/blog/texas-stand-ground-law-explained/ (2017)
You have the right to defend yourself, but you can’t use unreasonable or excessive force. To use an obvious example, if someone comes at you with a feather, you can’t pull out a knife.

----
* Texplainer: When Can Texans Use Deadly Force in Self-Defense?
In 2007, Texas passed a law resembling Florida’s that goes further than the "Castle Doctrine." Like Florida’s, the Texas law removed the duty to retreat for people who are attacked, as long as they have the "right to be present at the location where the force is used." In other words, Texans are allowed to use force in self-defense before retreating as long as they are not intruding on private property.

 

[cluciano63]

Since living in an apt these four years, after not having done so since my twenties...police have banged on my door twice, well after midnight. Both times it was regarding the young woman who lives next door...they wanted to know if I had heard the disturbances, seen anyone etc...I opened my door both times (door opens directly to outside, not a hallway) but now...am pretty sure I would be too afraid. This case scares me so much.

I was lucky in that the officers were all polite, respectful, really professional. They stayed around for over an hour after the young woman said she was okay to make sure the ex did not come back, got our security involved etc...

Another time the girl’s mom knocked on my door at 2:00 am, asking about her daughter, giving me her phone number in case I ever heard anything. She wanted me to call 911 even if it might be “sex noises” lol just in case. If I called every time I heard sex noises from my neighbors, I’d do little else...but seriously, this tragedy has really scared me. Not sure what I will do if police come calling again.

 

[Thora_Jay]

These threads move too fast for me to read every one, but I do not recall any discussion of Texas' Castle Doctrine.

* The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas article from 2016
What exactly is the Castle Doctrine? When Can Deadly Force be used for Self Defense Purposes?
In Texas, Section 9 of the Texas Penal Code provides legal justifications for the use of force in a limited set of circumstances when a person has no duty to retreat. For example, a homeowner in his own home does not have a duty to retreat and may use deadly force to protect himself against an armed intruder. This would be the same for a business owner in his place of business and a truck driver in his own truck.

Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary;
2. Had a legal right to be on the property;
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used; and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used.

Protection of One’s Own Property
Under Texas Penal Code §9.42, a person may use deadly force against another to protect land or property if:

1. He is the owner of the land;
2. He reasonably believes using the force is immediately necessary to prevent arson, burglary, or robbery; and
3. He reasonably believes that the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means.

---
* Texas Penal Code - PENAL - PENAL § 9.31 | FindLaw
Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 9.31. Self-Defense
----
* https://www.brodenmickelsen.com/blog/texas-stand-ground-law-explained/ (2017)
You have the right to defend yourself, but you can’t use unreasonable or excessive force. To use an obvious example, if someone comes at you with a feather, you can’t pull out a knife.

----
* Texplainer: When Can Texans Use Deadly Force in Self-Defense?
In 2007, Texas passed a law resembling Florida’s that goes further than the "Castle Doctrine." Like Florida’s, the Texas law removed the duty to retreat for people who are attacked, as long as they have the "right to be present at the location where the force is used." In other words, Texans are allowed to use force in self-defense before retreating as long as they are not intruding on private property.

The Texas Castle doctrine has been brought up here many times here. A keyword search of the threads will bring up the posts.

 

[Thora_Jay]

I do like your post Spellbound, to me, it is the best one that I have seen here in the subject, thank you so very much!

 

[VAgirlatheart]

I am surprised by the fact that a majority of the people that I brought up this case to at work, in line at the grocery store ect said the same thing basically.
The words “I think of my child”, “I think of my brother or sister”.
I never said them that I had thought that could have been my son before they offered their reply.

They are all truly disturbed and disgusted that this even took place, especially by an individual that was chosen to be a member of an “Elite” force. I was asked by more than a few how she ended up being the chosen one.

No answer from me due to the fact that I wonder the same.

One gentleman stated that his teen son is a hair over 6 feet tall. He stated that he is sure his son would have been shell shocked if he was relaxed at home watching tv in the dark, not expecting anyone at all and a person in the blink of an eye, opened the door, barked orders in the dark and then shot him as he approached to see what the hell was happening at that moment, not having any time to register what was happening in his own home.
He said he would fight until the day he died to ensure that the self induced mind altered woman was removed from society for her natural life.
I had goosebumps when he spoke. He spoke to me as if Botham were his own son. He was very emotional. That gentleman was one that I spoke to in line at the grocery store. He touched me the most. I had never heard the words “self induced mind altered woman” before.

So with that, is there anyone else here that thinks of their own child, relative or friend when they think of Botham?

Absolutely. I lost my dad last year due to illness and he was my best friend. He was the most sweetest humble human being in the entire world. 6 years ago, I moved to Dallas from a small place in Virginia with my then fiance, now husband. I feel like maybe I was so blind to a lot of things going on around me and it wasn't until I moved down here that my mindset began to change how I view things around me. Not that this matters but it is an important part of my life to mention because of the point of this post. I'm actually bi-racial, my dad is black and my mom is white. My tone is very pale and I often get asked if I am Hispanic. I didn't have to many issues growing up as I played sports a lot and I had never felt like I was discriminated against. Of course, that could be because I took over my moms skin tone. The best thing that about moving out of a small place and relocating to a bigger city is diversity but with that came knowledge. Knowledge to step back and see how things really are. I have no idea what the hell has happened but all of a sudden people that I have went to school with have turned into their true color. It's extremely sad to see. I will always fight for what is right, always. I speak my mind constantly on social media on matters that I care about the most and I always get resistance from people who are often close minded and don't understand things around them. I will respect someone for their opinion but I make sure, I let them know that I will never stand down. Every time I mention matters like Police brutality, I always get hit with well what about black on black crime and my favorite "you don't say that when an officer dies" which in reality, I had to pull up my post from when the 2016 Dallas shooting happened to prove to them, that I don't stand for hate at all. I take up for everyone as a whole, but what people don't realize, is that these issues are very real and can happen to any of us. My husband is also black .. that could easily be him. We live in Mesquite and right now, the officer who shot Jones, is on trial. If you haven't seen that video, its the most disgusting video that I've seen in a while. The guy was fixing an alarm on his truck and got attacked and shot twice. Luckily, he survived to tell his story. But that could have easily been my husband and after losing my dad, I will make sure that I will not lose anyone else that is important in my life. That officer was black, so its not a matter of race sometimes. Its about making sure that anyone who feels privileged and above someone else because they have a gun, accountable for actions. My point is that most of the time, it doesn't matter to people when they don't have to fear it themselves. But I will say, I think people are just tired of it all. Its really draining but it is amazing to see people finally speaking out against it. I think people are opening their eyes and saying enough. This case especially, people realize its wrong.

 

[kaen]

I think people are opening their eyes and saying enough. This case especially, people realize its wrong.

SBM.

Thank you for such an honest and difficult post. I absolutely appreciate each and every word.

 

[kaen]

---
* Texas Penal Code - PENAL - PENAL § 9.31 | FindLaw
Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 9.31. Self-Defense
----
* https://www.brodenmickelsen.com/blog/texas-stand-ground-law-explained/ (2017)
You have the right to defend yourself, but you can’t use unreasonable or excessive force. To use an obvious example, if someone comes at you with a feather, you can’t pull out a knife.

----
* Texplainer: When Can Texans Use Deadly Force in Self-Defense?
In 2007, Texas passed a law resembling Florida’s that goes further than the "Castle Doctrine." Like Florida’s, the Texas law removed the duty to retreat for people who are attacked, as long as they have the "right to be present at the location where the force is used." In other words, Texans are allowed to use force in self-defense before retreating as long as they are not intruding on private property.

Thank you. Great post.

 

[Thora_Jay]

Absolutely. I lost my dad last year due to illness and he was my best friend. He was the most sweetest humble human being in the entire world. 6 years ago, I moved to Dallas from a small place in Virginia with my then fiance, now husband. I feel like maybe I was so blind to a lot of things going on around me and it wasn't until I moved down here that my mindset began to change how I view things around me. Not that this matters but it is an important part of my life to mention because of the point of this post. I'm actually bi-racial, my dad is black and my mom is white. My tone is very pale and I often get asked if I am Hispanic. I didn't have to many issues growing up as I played sports a lot and I had never felt like I was discriminated against. Of course, that could be because I took over my moms skin tone. The best thing that about moving out of a small place and relocating to a bigger city is diversity but with that came knowledge. Knowledge to step back and see how things really are. I have no idea what the hell has happened but all of a sudden people that I have went to school with have turned into their true color. It's extremely sad to see. I will always fight for what is right, always. I speak my mind constantly on social media on matters that I care about the most and I always get resistance from people who are often close minded and don't understand things around them. I will respect someone for their opinion but I make sure, I let them know that I will never stand down. Every time I mention matters like Police brutality, I always get hit with well what about black on black crime and my favorite "you don't say that when an officer dies" which in reality, I had to pull up my post from when the 2016 Dallas shooting happened to prove to them, that I don't stand for hate at all. I take up for everyone as a whole, but what people don't realize, is that these issues are very real and can happen to any of us. My husband is also black .. that could easily be him. We live in Mesquite and right now, the officer who shot Jones, is on trial. If you haven't seen that video, its the most disgusting video that I've seen in a while. The guy was fixing an alarm on his truck and got attacked and shot twice. Luckily, he survived to tell his story. But that could have easily been my husband and after losing my dad, I will make sure that I will not lose anyone else that is important in my life. That officer was black, so its not a matter of race sometimes. Its about making sure that anyone who feels privileged and above someone else because they have a gun, accountable for actions. My point is that most of the time, it doesn't matter to people when they don't have to fear it themselves. But I will say, I think people are just tired of it all. Its really draining but it is amazing to see people finally speaking out against it. I think people are opening their eyes and saying enough. This case especially, people realize its wrong.

Dearest VAgirlatheart,
My deepest condolences to you for your father. My heart hurts for you. Giving you a huge cyber hug if you accept.
I appreciate your post so very much.
Respectfully,
Thora Jay

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

Do you see the difference in TCD, Florida's FUBAR SYG statute and the weakest link in these type statutes speaking to certain factors our system selectively considers, that resulted in AG being given very generous benefit of the doubt in her not being arrested on the spot for at least murder 2?

Years ago, the one key factor which too often flies today, simply didn't then.

Consider if the killer in this case had been a duly elected judge.

Then consider if the killer had been any other neighbor that wasn't LEO or even a government employee.

The Texas Castle doctrine has been brought up here many times here. A keyword search of the threads will bring up the posts.

 

[bluesneakers]

This case scares me, because it could happen to anyone. What concerns me the most, is the absolute lack of accountability. This officer was treated as if this shooting occurred while investigating a crime. She received special treatment, she was not arrested, held, charged. As anyone else would have been treated.

That is the slippery slope to a police state. Mr. Jean's rights were violated, he was in his own home, doing no crime, an officer storms in, shouts commands, and shoots him.

If this officer does not get a prison sentence, be very afraid, because this could happen to you.

And, I do wonder if there is a racial component here...if the Killer had stormed into our home, I think the outrage would have been even more, she would have killed a 100% service connected disabled veteran, who is blind and deaf, my husband. As for myself, she would have had some major issues as well.

IMO most police shooting cases could happen to anyone. People like to tell themselves as long as they do everything the officer says and are polite and respectful they won't get shot, but it happens. To people who are doing nothing wrong, to people who are unarmed, to people who are in crisis, to people who are deaf. (Yes, there are some people it's probably more likely to happen to, but all kinds of people can be victims of police brutality.) But yes, I agree this one seems to have crossed a line and I don't see how anyone could possible convince themselves "This couldn't happen to me."

What's happened since is truly frightening and shocking. To suggest a law enforcement can randomly shoot someone in his own home and walk away and keep her job? I don't have the words. Has everything that happened before been leading up to this???

 

[mickey2942]

Interesting reading, the Dallas Police Department General Order
317.00 Investigation of Police Shootings, Serious Injury, or Death Incidents.

Goes over procedures for "Performance of Police Related Duties"
Any time an officer intentionally discharges his firearm, in the COURSE OF DUTY

The Killer can be suspended by the State of Texas, licensing board for officers. For being charged with a felony. Texas Administrative Code, Title 37, part 7, Chapter 223.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

VA, sorry for your loss of a loved one.

Dearest VAgirlatheart,
My deepest condolences to you for your father. My heart hurts for you. Giving you a huge cyber hug if you accept.
I appreciate your post so very much.
Respectfully,
Thora Jay

Very classy response, TJ. I wish I could read large volumes of typed words without paragraphing and spacing. My eyes just won't anymore and have probably gotten spoiled or lazy from not having to, and not being allowed to present in less than easy-ish to read formatting . :-(

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

She can be terminated as other DA's and police chiefs have done so in the past, multiple times. The sovereign state of Texas can certainly fire her at will.

What would she do if they did?

Well she and an army of police union thugs might, maybe, it would look bad if they did, file law suit aginst Texas and its people. Tons of money would be spent, with cash from both sides coming from yep, you guessed it, the people and not anyone actually responsible will be out any money that didn't come from the people.

Texas is generally not a pro-union state, is it?

Are any states left that are predominantly pro-union?

It is interesting that private sector jobs that are union went the way of the dinosaurs starting solidly when President Reagan fired the air traffic controllers.

I'd say the overwhelming percentage of union jobs in America today are those held by government workers.

Ironic huh?

The same government that has actively busted countless private sector American labor unions, has and keeps very powerful unions for its own workers.

Private sector jobs (those that pay for government) having benefits and security anything close to government jobs, are rare indeed these days.

Am I wrong?

Are things not completely upside down?

Does this gal have some serious dirt on, or influence over somebody very powerful?

Interesting reading, the Dallas Police Department General Order
317.00 Investigation of Police Shootings, Serious Injury, or Death Incidents.

Goes over procedures for "Performance of Police Related Duties"
Any time an officer intentionally discharges his firearm, in the COURSE OF DUTY

The Killer can be suspended by the State of Texas, licensing board for officers. For being charged with a felony. Texas Administrative Code, Title 37, part 7, Chapter 223.

 

[mickey2942]

She can be terminated as other DA's and police chiefs have done so in the past, multiple times. The sovereign state of Texas can certainly fire her at will.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE CHAPTER 143. MUNICIPAL CIVIL SERVICE FOR FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS

Found it. Aside from the issue of the felony, which the debate about "intent", the officer can be fired after a psychological evaluation, there are other areas in the statute as well, that the Killer can be FIRED.


LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE CHAPTER 143. MUNICIPAL CIVIL SERVICE FOR FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS

And here, a police officer can be fired due to incompetence. I would consider going into a stranger's home and killing him to be pretty incompetent. There are lots of other precepts that the Killer can be fired.

Hmm, I guess the Dallas Police Chief needs to read some Texas Law! Plenty of other statutes that apply as well.

And why wouldn't we trust the Dallas PD? Hmmm...