TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered wrong apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018

[rosesfromangels]

Let’s put all the how and why aside for a second. I still can’t wrap my head around why it seems like most police departments seem to circle the wagons around an office that shoots an innocent person. It just continues to erode the public trust in them regardless of the situation. I think the police should never be allowed to investigate themselves.

To me, if the police department immediately stand with the officer in an off duty shooting it becomes an “officer involved shooting”. If the officer is off duty, the officer should be treated like any other suspect and by that I mean immediately questioned and if they refuse to cooperate then handle it like a non-officer shooting. They should not be able to have it both ways.

Can anyone honestly say that if this situation involved anyone else but a police officer it would be handled this lightly?

I think they circle the wagons because only another person who faces possible injury or death everyday can understand how stressful their work is. I also don't think this will be handled lightly. I think this will be handled vigorously as the world is watching. Again. This time, I believe the outcome will be the right one. A new day has dawned.

 

[Isabelle]

if it is true a neighbor heard her asking to be let in, does anyone think its possible we will learn they knew each other? (i want to be clear i am 10000% NOT victim blaming; this would make me just as disgusted with the cop, if not more but for different reasons: the current & likely scenario of her totally abusing power on an innocent stranger and the possible scenario of her knowing him also still being a misuse of power on a personal level by using her gun and status bc of a personal matter.

-the latter scenario has run through my mind because he is 26 and attractive, shes 30 and also attractive (despite her mugshot). it wouldnt be the most unlikely pairing of random ppl in a building to be acquainted.

-i know jean's phone has been taken and chances are something will be discovered if they were acquaintances but since they lived a floor apart, their texts could have been minimal. and maybe this version of events was the best story she came up with on the 911 call/police arrival?

-again, imo, this scenario still makes her entirely at fault because based on what the neighbor is saying, she was asking to be let in and NOT that the neighbor overheard an ongoing argument that escalated (which doesnt excuse shooting someone but a one hour domestic argument would make it harder to prove exactly what happened). nobody, man or woman, is required to let someone into their apartment.

-ik articles have stated theres no reason to think they know each other but i am curious if anyone has found confirmation that they absolutely didnt know each other, in which case my post would be irrelevant.

And, if it is true that she knocked and called out to be let in the apartment, who was in the apartment that would have let her in? So many unanswered questions.

 

[Isabelle]

The light in the hallway would have been on, and the front door to the hallway was open.

Do we know if the complex has CCTV?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I cannot find it now my quick break is almost over, I posted an article with a tenant stating that he and others had to be escorted to their apartment and to stear clear of the blood. I have to wait until tonight when I get home from work to find it. So there was blood in the hallway according to a tenant that was interviewed by the media.

I don't doubt it. The force of those bullet would have caused a splatter pattern. (Sorry to say that). He might have staggered and fallen out the doorway. We don't know, and I hardly believe we can count on an accurate account from the shooter. Let's pray there were hall cameras.
What a nightmare for his family. My prayers surround them. So, so outrageous. The shooter must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and I believe she will be. And, I believe there is much more to this sad incident that will be revealed. She ain't telling the truth.
*Amateur speculation and opinion*

 

[Isabelle]

It doesn’t appear that Southside Flats offers any type of security as an amenity listed on their internet page.

 

[rosesfromangels]

It doesn’t appear that Southside Flats offers any type of security as an amenity listed on their internet page.

I bet that will change.

 

[SandyQLS]

This case reminds me of drunk driving vehicular manslaughter. In those cases there is impaired judgment, and the intent is only to drive the car, yet someone dies making the car a deadly weapon.

I think this case comes down to AG's impaired judgment, her actions are not those of a reasonable person. If what we know are the facts, we need to know why and how her judgment was so impaired, and she needs to be held accountable even if she was simply fatigued.

She alone controlled the deadly weapon and chose to use it wantonly. I still think, at this point, manslaughter is likely the right charge and 10-20 years, same as drunk drivers.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Snip:
"Don't get me wrong. She's going to have to answer in a court of law," Sgt. Mike Matta, president of the Dallas Police Association, said Tuesday. "But it needs to be fair and unbiased and right not it's not unbiased. It's beginning to turn into a political hunt."

From his reading of the arrest warrant affidavit, Matta said, "you can understand how a mistake can be made."

She gives verbal commands and then she shoots into the dark apartment. Not knowing anything about who this individual is or anything, she shoots into a dark apartment," Crump told ABC News.

"So it's going to have to be determined is this the actions of a prudent well-trained police officer who at this time now has assumed that she is investigating a burglary and that she then must comply with her training, her experience, her education that she got from DPD [the Dallas Police Department]. It seems to be contradictory of a well-trained police officer."

Attorney Daryl Washington, who is also representing the Jean family, said Guyger's purported actions after shooting Jean was suspect and full of "inconsistencies."

"From the fact that when you look at an affidavit and I'm thinking that I'm at my house and I call 911 because someone was just shot,” he said. “Well, the very first thing that I'm going to do is I'm not going to go outside and look at my address? I'm going to give them my address right there on the phone. I’m going to say I'm on the phone. My address is this. Why did she have to go outside to verify the address? It makes no sense whatsoever." End Snip.

Lawyers call police officer's story in wrong-apartment shooting 'highly implausible'

 

[mrstfs]

This case reminds me of drunk driving vehicular manslaughter. In those cases there is impaired judgment, and the intent is only to drive the car, yet someone dies making the car a deadly weapon.

I think this case comes down to AG's impaired judgment, her actions are not those of a reasonable person. If what we know are the facts, we need to know why and how her judgment was so impaired, and she needs to be held accountable even if she was simply fatigued.

She alone controlled the deadly weapon and chose to use it wantonly. I still think, at this point, manslaughter is likely the right charge and 10-20 years, same as drunk drivers.

comment deleted

 

[Rocco]

Snip:
"Don't get me wrong. She's going to have to answer in a court of law," Sgt. Mike Matta, president of the Dallas Police Association, said Tuesday. "But it needs to be fair and unbiased and right not it's not unbiased. It's beginning to turn into a political hunt."

From his reading of the arrest warrant affidavit, Matta said, "you can understand how a mistake can be made."

She gives verbal commands and then she shoots into the dark apartment. Not knowing anything about who this individual is or anything, she shoots into a dark apartment," Crump told ABC News.

"So it's going to have to be determined is this the actions of a prudent well-trained police officer who at this time now has assumed that she is investigating a burglary and that she then must comply with her training, her experience, her education that she got from DPD [the Dallas Police Department]. It seems to be contradictory of a well-trained police officer."

Attorney Daryl Washington, who is also representing the Jean family, said Guyger's purported actions after shooting Jean was suspect and full of "inconsistencies."

"From the fact that when you look at an affidavit and I'm thinking that I'm at my house and I call 911 because someone was just shot,” he said. “Well, the very first thing that I'm going to do is I'm not going to go outside and look at my address? I'm going to give them my address right there on the phone. I’m going to say I'm on the phone. My address is this. Why did she have to go outside to verify the address? It makes no sense whatsoever." End Snip.

Lawyers call police officer's story in wrong-apartment shooting 'highly implausible'

It's been reported that after she shot him, she entered the apt to call 911. Upon entering, she realized it was not her apt. That's why she had to go outside and verify the address.
That lends to the theory that she shot him from the doorway. There goes the Castle Doctrine. She couldn't have been in imminent fear of death or great bodily harm that justified her using deadly force because she wasn't even IN what she thought was her apt.

 

[mickey2942]

The minute that it was identified NOT to be a work related shooting, it should have been processed completely differently.

I don't care what she does, or what her "stress" level is. We do not live in a Police State, where officers can enter a private residence and start shooting.

The response validated that we DO live in a "Police State". Anyone else who walked into a stranger's home and started shooting would have been placed on a 72 hour hold, for psychiatric evaluation. As a "danger to self or others", not just, "Go home, see you tomorrow".

 

[rosesfromangels]

The minute that it was identified NOT to be a work related shooting, it should have been processed completely differently.

I don't care what she does, or what her "stress" level is. We do not live in a Police State, where officers can enter a private residence and start shooting.

The response validated that we DO live in a "Police State". Anyone else who walked into a stranger's home and started shooting would have been placed on a 72 hour hold, for psychiatric evaluation. As a "danger to self or others", not just, "Go home, see you tomorrow".

Best post on this subject. Well said, and agree 100%

 

[SandyQLS]

I tend to disagree with this comparison because a car’s main use is not to kill someone.

The main legal use of a gun is not to kill anyone but to gain compliance.

Perhaps my analogy is not well enough stated because my issue is her impaired judgment not the gun or other weapon. And I don't really care what impaired her judgment - her judgment was impaired and poor, and it is entirely her responsibility to self-assess and take precautions.

It's a very interesting legal case, and like I said I see a manslaughter but not murder.

Do you think off-duty police should be held to higher standards, charged higher than some other citizen?

 

[ilovewings]

Snip:
"Don't get me wrong. She's going to have to answer in a court of law," Sgt. Mike Matta, president of the Dallas Police Association, said Tuesday. "But it needs to be fair and unbiased and right not it's not unbiased. It's beginning to turn into a political hunt."

From his reading of the arrest warrant affidavit, Matta said, "you can understand how a mistake can be made."

She gives verbal commands and then she shoots into the dark apartment. Not knowing anything about who this individual is or anything, she shoots into a dark apartment," Crump told ABC News.

"So it's going to have to be determined is this the actions of a prudent well-trained police officer who at this time now has assumed that she is investigating a burglary and that she then must comply with her training, her experience, her education that she got from DPD [the Dallas Police Department]. It seems to be contradictory of a well-trained police officer."

Attorney Daryl Washington, who is also representing the Jean family, said Guyger's purported actions after shooting Jean was suspect and full of "inconsistencies."

"From the fact that when you look at an affidavit and I'm thinking that I'm at my house and I call 911 because someone was just shot,” he said. “Well, the very first thing that I'm going to do is I'm not going to go outside and look at my address? I'm going to give them my address right there on the phone. I’m going to say I'm on the phone. My address is this. Why did she have to go outside to verify the address? It makes no sense whatsoever." End Snip.

Lawyers call police officer's story in wrong-apartment shooting 'highly implausible'

I was thinking the same thing: why would she have to go outside to verify her address?
doesn't make sense.

 

[MsFacetious]

They were treating it initially as officer related shooting. She was allowed to leave and they probably didn't collect her uniform.

They should collect the uniform even in an officer involved shooting. If an officer shoots someone because they went for their gun, there could be evidence on the uniform. That should be standard if it is not.

The main legal use of a gun is not to kill anyone but to gain compliance.

Perhaps my analogy is not well enough stated because my issue is her impaired judgment not the gun or other weapon. And I don't really care what impaired her judgment - her judgment was impaired and poor, and it is entirely her responsibility to self-assess and take precautions.

It's a very interesting legal case, and like I said I see a manslaughter but not murder.

Do you think off-duty police should be held to higher standards, charged higher than some other citizen?

I do, yes. Simply because of the additional training they have. While citizens may have some training when they obtain a gun, it's nothing compared to the training officers receive. I think that officers training also includes being observant, de-escalating, among other things. I would expect an officer to be able to keep their cool and not shoot much longer than a regular citizen. Absolutely I hold them to a higher standard, even off duty.

I was thinking the same thing: why would she have to go outside to verify her address?
doesn't make sense.

Maybe she's like me and it takes way more than a month to remember her address. Or the year. Or her age.

 

[cluciano63]

Why couldn’t your basic burglar use the same defense? “I thought it was my house...”

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Snip:
Texas law defines murder quite simply as “intentionally or knowingly caus[ing] the death of an individual.” Manslaughter, by contrast, occurs when a person “recklessly” causes death. Guyger’s warning and her deliberate aim scream intent. She may have “recklessly” gone to the wrong apartment, but she very intentionally killed Jean. There is a chance that the grand jury will increase the charge to murder, so the early manslaughter charge is tentative. But I ask you: If Jean had mistakenly gone to Guyger’s apartment and then gunned her down in cold blood after demanding that she follow his commands, would he face a manslaughter charge? End Snip.
Amber Guyger Botham Shem Jean Police Shooting: Tragedy Shows Need for Cops to Face Impartial Justice | National Review

 

[MsFacetious]

Snip:
Texas law defines murder quite simply as “intentionally or knowingly caus[ing] the death of an individual.” Manslaughter, by contrast, occurs when a person “recklessly” causes death. Guyger’s warning and her deliberate aim scream intent. She may have “recklessly” gone to the wrong apartment, but she very intentionally killed Jean. There is a chance that the grand jury will increase the charge to murder, so the early manslaughter charge is tentative. But I ask you: If Jean had mistakenly gone to Guyger’s apartment and then gunned her down in cold blood after demanding that she follow his commands, would he face a manslaughter charge? End Snip.
Amber Guyger Botham Shem Jean Police Shooting: Tragedy Shows Need for Cops to Face Impartial Justice | National Review

Or even if Botham had shot her for coming into his apartment.
There's no way he wouldn't have been arrested on the spot.
I still can't grasp that "I THOUGHT it was my apartment" could be enough to use castle doctrine.
Unbelievable.

 

[SandyQLS]

It's been reported that after she shot him, she entered the apt to call 911. Upon entering, she realized it was not her apt. That's why she had to go outside and verify the address.
That lends to the theory that she shot him from the doorway. There goes the Castle Doctrine. She couldn't have been in imminent fear of death or great bodily harm that justified her using deadly force because she wasn't even IN what she thought was her apt.

respectfully BBM

I really like your post. I wonder if they can find muzzle discharge gunshot residue and oil on the door or door frame to nail down exactly where she stood.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Here's what I predict.
Defendant will take a plea deal.
Family of Victim will sue DPD for having a nut case (who had a prior) on their force, and will win. Time will tell.

*Amateur opinion and speculation*