TX - Gilbert Flores, 41, killed by LE on video, San Antonio, 28 Aug 2015
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sonjay
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comma it's difficult to contain a conversation to one 'incident'
Exactly. I thought you made it clear you wanted to talk about "incidents" plural. And katydid responded by addressing incidents, plural.
You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about "so many shootings" and expect other people to not respond to "so many shootings."
So do you want to talk about this one incident? Or do you want to talk about the 600 homicides by LE relative to the 14,000 murders and the million violent crime calls that police respond to every year?
FBI opens civil rights investigation into fatal on-camera shooting of San Antonio man
My San Antonio
By Mark D. Wilson Updated 5:01 pm, Tuesday, September 1, 2015
More, of course.
My San Antonio
By Mark D. Wilson Updated 5:01 pm, Tuesday, September 1, 2015
"SAN ANTONIO The FBI said Tuesday afternoon it has opened a federal civil rights investigation into the fatal shooting of a man by two Bexar County Sheriff's deputies, which was captured on cellphone video.
"We coordinate our investigation to ensure that we are not interfering with (BSCO's) investigation," said FBI spokeswoman Michelle Lee. "They have been extremely cooperative and transparent.""
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"Authorities have not said whether Flores had a weapon in his hand at the time of the shooting and have refused to provide a written report of the incident, pending a full investigation. The Sheriff's Office has not responded to multiple requests for comment."
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"Experienced civil rights investigators from the FBI will thoroughly review the facts and circumstances surrounding the shooting. Our focus is to determine whether a civil rights violation took place as a result of a deputy willfully engaging in the use of excessive or unjustified force," the bureau said in a statement to the Express-News."
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"Another video of the shooting, which has not been publicly released, provides a "very clear view" of the confrontation between deputies and Flores, according to Bexar County District Attorney Nico LaHood.
LaHood called both videos "disturbing," but cautioned against a rush to judgement. He refused to provide further information about the second video."
"We coordinate our investigation to ensure that we are not interfering with (BSCO's) investigation," said FBI spokeswoman Michelle Lee. "They have been extremely cooperative and transparent.""
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"Authorities have not said whether Flores had a weapon in his hand at the time of the shooting and have refused to provide a written report of the incident, pending a full investigation. The Sheriff's Office has not responded to multiple requests for comment."
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"Experienced civil rights investigators from the FBI will thoroughly review the facts and circumstances surrounding the shooting. Our focus is to determine whether a civil rights violation took place as a result of a deputy willfully engaging in the use of excessive or unjustified force," the bureau said in a statement to the Express-News."
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"Another video of the shooting, which has not been publicly released, provides a "very clear view" of the confrontation between deputies and Flores, according to Bexar County District Attorney Nico LaHood.
LaHood called both videos "disturbing," but cautioned against a rush to judgement. He refused to provide further information about the second video."
More, of course.
Brightbird
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Does anyone really know how many police shootings there are a year? In any case, I'm not sure what is the point of comparing police shootings to murders. Aren't the police supposed to protect the public, unlike murderers? I do agree most are probably justified (but perhaps avoidable) and with so many guns in America, I'm inclined to give police a little more leeway in making split moment decisions. But the police have a standard to uphold if they want the public to trust them. It doesn't matter if it's 100, 600, or 1500 shootings, if some appear to be unjustified - and people start to think that could happen to me or my family - that is what the public will focus on.
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I quoted statistics because you said there were so many shootings of people by the cops. And I wanted to put it in perspective. Cops answer over a million violent calls a year. I think it was 1.2 million in 2013. So if they get in 600 shootouts it does not seem unusual or unwarranted. JMO
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I willl explain exactly why one compares police shootings to murders. After a body is found in the street , who comes out and tries to capture the killers? The cops do. So with 15, 000 murders, and over a million violent crimes, the cops are called out to the crime scenes that many times. So they are on the front lines. And as they are walking around a crime scene trying to figure out who the guilty party is, they are at great risk of being shot. They know that. Shoot outs happen because cops are trying to detain the murderers/car jackers/armed robbers.
I do not think that most people think they will be killed by a cop. Not unless they are out on the streets doing crimes. Most people are way more afraid of gangs than they are of the cops. JMO
bbm sbm Is there a handy-dandy trick for doing this ^ one frame at a time - so even a dino like me can do it on my M/S Surface tablet?
Anyone? Explanation or link? Thx in adv.
I think each shooting needs to be judge separately. I don't want police afraid to do their jobs and protect the public.
sonjay
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I think I probably misspoke. I was going through it one second at a time. Hit play, hit pause, hit play, hit pause. Each time it moved me forward by one second.
I think that the video wizards can actually do a frame at a time, but I don't think that's what I did.
sonjay
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All so true. And don't forget, the cops are responding to more than just homicides. Domestic violence, assaults, robberies, muggings, rapes, riots, lootings, mayhem, non-peaceful protests. Even "routine" traffic stops often involve violent criminals who attack the cop; police have to be on high alert for the duration of every single interaction. Cops deal with violent criminals every day. IMO, it's a tribute to the restraint of most police officers that more violent criminals aren't shot.
Brightbird
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I'm not disputing the fact that police go into high risk situations and use their guns accordingly. I am saying that I don't think it's reasonable to compare murder rates and police shooting rates because there are so many different factors motivating a murder vs a police shooting. I'm not even saying that 600 is too high (maybe it is, maybe it isn't), just that the comparison percentage wise is misleading. Or do you think the rate of police shootings will only be too high when it exceeds the murder rate? What about police shootings when there is no body in the street? All I am saying is that they are not comparable statistics.
Edit: I am also saying that public perception matters more for police than murderers and criminals.
Brightbird
Thanks for a perspective on this from Down Under. In a visit there years ago, the bad part was not being able to stay longer, esp your wonderful city.
Speaking for an unknown number of law abiding US citizens, residents, and visitors, but mostly myself, I have not started thinking - this could happen to me. Is it poss? Yes, absolutely in a statistical sense. But it's close to the bottom of my
MTTWAL (million things to worry about list) because I obey laws & if stopped, say for traffic violation, I obey LE orders.
As sonjay noted a few posts up - most ppl shot by LE have taken multiple, deliberate, conscious actions to which LEOs have the right to respond with use of force, per state statute, PD policies, etc.
Has anyone on the this thread said - 'Yes, this was definitely a justified shooting by LEOs'? IDTS. I think many will wait for much more info to come out, maybe even wait for final report(s) from LE agencies, now including DoJ.
But from some posts, IIUC, some ppl, have concluded - 'This is definitely an unjustified shooting by LE,' no matter what other evidence comes out. IIUC, ppl w that opinion, apparently base it on ~ 1-2 sec, during which man had his hands & arms up, just prior to LEOs firing.
That length of time is not the sole determinative factor for whether shooting was or was not justified under TX law.
JM2cts.
On Youtube you can slow down a video to 1/4 speed. Just click the little "gear" wheel and select "speed" 0.25.
Here is a link to the video (advance the video to about about 1:25 sec after setting the speed).
To me it appears that both arms were in the air at the moment he was shot (his arms coming down to his side was IMO a reaction to being shot)
[video=youtube;mJgR0Yhf6Dw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJgR0Yhf6Dw[/video]
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...man-who-had-his-hands-up--surrender/71511908/
According to another station, KENS-TV, police said the deputies found a woman who was bleeding from her head and holding a toddler, who also may have been hurt.
The Bexar County Sheriff's Office said Flores was armed with a knife and resisting arrest when deputies showed up.
According to another station, KENS-TV, police said the deputies found a woman who was bleeding from her head and holding a toddler, who also may have been hurt.
The Bexar County Sheriff's Office said Flores was armed with a knife and resisting arrest when deputies showed up.
wfgodot
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I am not 'comparing' the statistics. I am just trying to put the police shootings into context. If they are called out on 15,000 murder calls, then they are going to go into at least that many murder crime scenes and interview thousands of potential killers, gang members, etc. Most of these police shootings happen when they try to take someone into custody.
And yes, public perception does matter. Which is why it was stupid and reckless for BLM to chant about DEADS PIGS the day after the Houston cop was executed.
FWIW, imo the varied opinions expressed regarding LE shootings are invaluable - everywhere. Have yet to see an LE shooting thread where one could stay on the topic of just that shooting. It affects everyone, everywhere on some level imo.
They are individual opinions though - regardless of how one expresses themselves. And worth reading - the wide opinion gap will be an invaluable tool someday, imo, to the experts trying to reach a better way of dealing with this type of situation/standoff/interaction - whatever label is best.
Everyone cares about this subject on some level - and imo, it is a subject rather than an individual incident - making it difficult for the mods I'm sure. And no one individual has the answers yet, that I have noticed. Jmo.
They are individual opinions though - regardless of how one expresses themselves. And worth reading - the wide opinion gap will be an invaluable tool someday, imo, to the experts trying to reach a better way of dealing with this type of situation/standoff/interaction - whatever label is best.
Everyone cares about this subject on some level - and imo, it is a subject rather than an individual incident - making it difficult for the mods I'm sure. And no one individual has the answers yet, that I have noticed. Jmo.
