TX - Hanna Mack, 6, raped & murdered, Navarro Mills, 10 Sept 2007

[southcitymom]

I am having a liittle trouble understanding why this mom is being crucified- without any real details being placed in front of us- the statement about a teacher reporting sexual abuse, is nothing more than gossip, imo- IF__IF the mother knew there were problems, then yes- she is as guilty as he is-- but RIGHT now, I dont see how we can be so judgementall-- yes, there are woman who put themselves above their children, but I think they are a very small minority- I dont think a man or woman should have to be "mateless" after a divorce- if a mother picks a "scum bag" after a divorce, I would guess there was a good chacne the original husband wasnt too much better- I dont think someone goes from happy home, good marriage, and family to a sexual, physical abuser--but - jmo--

Like everything else, it's a case-by-case basis. Fathers harm, abuse, and murder their own children at least as much as live-in boyfriends do, so I think it's unfair to make generalizations about the subject.

It's all well and good to say that Moms with kids who make questionable boyfriend/husband decisions should put their children first (and, of course, they should), but most Moms that bring inappropriate men into their kid's lives aren't really capable of making great decisions. In many instances, I would wager that it was a bad decision for them to have even had the kids they are now supposed to care for and put first....to all of the sudden expect them to develop sound life skills just because they had a baby is optimistic to the point of foolishness, IMHO.

My mother was so desperate to be married and have a man, that she continually sold her young daughters out to achieve that end. She still does to this day, but we are grown now and not so vulnerable. Lucky for me, I had an extremely stable father, so that - to an extent - balanced out the insanity of my Mom's choices.

Now - my Mom wasn't a good mother in this regard. But frankly, it's all she was capable of being. She was raised to believe she was nothing without a man and she bought that tale hook, line and sinker and she just never had the strength to change that about herself.

I think women who seem to put their domestic life (either husband or boyfriend) above the welfare of their childen justify their choices a million different ways ("it's better if I stay with him and they have a father;" "he makes money and we will be on the streets without him;" "he might be hard on me but he would never hurt them;" and the ever-popular 'he really love me/us" etc..etc...etc...) just as we all justify our choices and feel like they are the right choices.

I think it's rare that a women thinks "Well he's beating my son and touching my daughter inappropriately and there's kiddie all over the computer" but my kids aren't in any trouble.

More often, they are ignorant (sometimes even willfully so) of what is really going on. Should these women be punished when their child ends up dead. For me, it depends 100% on the individual circumstances. In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. In some cases, they are just as much victims of the man as the children are.

In the case we are looking at on this thread, there is no sound reason to say this mother of a dead 6-year-old is at fault and should be punished.

I know TOS at Websleuths says we are not to speak ill of victims, but I guess who is a victim is always in the eye of the beholder because I regularly see grieving parents brutalized on threads here before anything resembling a full picture has been revealed.

 

[Lilybug1]

You are right biological father also do molest and/or abuse their daughters as well. I think women without children should consider current abuse and sexually deviant in their decision to have children with a man. However, I would not say that it is as common and happens at least as much as stepfathers and boyfriends abusing non-biological children.

There is an ick or incest factor that prevents it happening as much a stepfather or boyfriend. Although these guys are pervs, they actually might draw a line at his own child...now his children's friends that's a different story! Plus, with a stepfather or boyfriend, he comes into the picture later in life - meaning a man who is into little girls or boys could possibly prey on women with young children for easy access.

I don't think its unfair to make generalizations when you see the same thing occur again and again. Just to make things equal, we have generalizations on the other side (bio fathers do it just as much, women who introduce abusive/perverted boyfriends/stepfathers into homes have no control and have also been abused), so I think it all evens out in the end. More importantly, this isn't a court of law and our comments are not being introduced into evidence, so IF in the unlikely event that this mother iss charged, she will be tried on facts and not our generalizations. It's an online forum where people posts their comments and thoughts on current cases and crimes in the news.

 

[sherri79]

i can only speak for myself here. i'm one of the blame the mom gang. why others blame moms is something they would need to explain so please do not take my post as covering all reasons for everyone of us. i dont want to put words in their mouths.

my father beat my mother. i dont mean he slapped, pushed, or punched her. even the word beat is mild for the things he did. she spent days in bed after he took the heel of his boot to her face. i helped change the bandages after he forced her to lie in broken glass. at 11 he screamed at us to go to our room as he ripped her clothing off and i knew he was raping her in our living room while i hid with my brother in our bedroom. he was a drunk and she was a drunk and it was hell. when my father was angry you could tell. he would snap and pace and slam stuff til it built up to a outburst where he needed to hurt someone. often my mother would make up something against me or my brother so his anger would be taken out on us instead of her. at 30 my brother is still having surgery to fix the jaw my father broke and we set at home. it never healed correctly. he was 9. when i was 12 mom left dad. she left alone. the beatings did not stop. after a few months my father decided we cramped his dating so he sent us to live with our mother. she moved us in with her parents. the fact i told her years before that her father hurt me "down there" did not seem to matter. as soon as we moved in the abuse from my grandfather became a regular thing. i begged her to leave. she explained he was old and did not mean it. she claimed his mind was going but he never raped me with a uncle in the house for a visit. he never did it in the middle of dinner with every one watching so he at least had that much mind left. she also tried to explain to me that the way i dressed and the fact i had large breast at such a young age made it hard on him to resist. then she moved out. she found a boyfriend. he had a 2 bedroom trailer in the woods on a large piece of land and it was such a nice country place. too bad it only had 2 bedrooms because that meant no room for me. she took my brother and moved in with him and left me with my grandfather. at 15 i ran away and swore if she made me go back i would tell. she let me stay with different friends and guys and i kept my mouth shut. not long after my grandfather found out he had cancer. a nice slow painful death. took almost 5 years for it to eat him alive. for 5 years i got calls from my mother telling me how much he loved me and i should forgive him and visit him before he died.

from the age of 9 til 11 we had foster children live with us. their mother who was my aunt rented them out for sex to buy drugs.

my husbands mother had 5 live in boyfriend after his father died when he was 7. most did not care about the kids one way or the other. the 3rd liked to have sex with his 2 sisters and when they told mom she slapped them and called them liars. she said they saw how happy she was and wanted to destroy it because they were jealous. it did not end til the youngest told a teacher and the man went to prison. the last live in could not keep his hands of the oldest daughter and when she moved in with me and my husband at 16 mom married him. the youngest sister has a daughter that got VD at the age of 2 while she lived with a convicted pedophile. she tried to convince the case worker the baby got venereal warts from a dirty wash cloth. he is in prison now and she is a crack head that we can rarely find. she has 3 kids and the state will step in every so often to fix things but it never last.

when i read about police asking cps to stay quite it was a flag for me. why stay quite if there was never a case? it is easy to blame a mother for me if there is any hint of abuse because i know what a mother is capable of.

 

[Salem]

Sheri - many many many :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: to you. I can't find the "hugs" but many of them to you also.

I had an abusive stepfather, but nothing like what you have described. Now, I am a CASA/GAL for foster children here in our County. On a case I recently worked, the mother of the cutest little boys you have ever seen, told CPS that she would never stay away from the man that was abusing her boys because "he was the only thing that brought her any happiness." Quite a testament to motherly love, huh? Fortunately, those boys have now been adopted by a loving family and are doing very well.

My position is that it is necessary to start all investigations with a close, hard look at the parents and move out from there.

Salem

 

[sherri79]

Sheri - many many many :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss: to you. I can't find the "hugs" but many of them to you also.

I had an abusive stepfather, but nothing like what you have described. Now, I am a CASA/GAL for foster children here in our County. On a case I recently worked, the mother of the cutest little boys you have ever seen, told CPS that she would never stay away from the man that was abusing her boys because "he was the only thing that brought her any happiness." Quite a testament to motherly love, huh? Fortunately, those boys have now been adopted by a loving family and are doing very well.

My position is that it is necessary to start all investigations with a close, hard look at the parents and move out from there.

Salem

i think the same way. any time a child is hurt you have to start looking at home first. i know i have a slant on the way i look at these cases. i come from a family that will let children suffer for their own benefit. so when i read that cps must stay quite it sets off my warning bells. people who come from a good home where mom would die to save her children often dont see the same thing because they can not wrap their head around a mother allowing her child to suffer. women who have been abuse often see the mother as a victim because they know the fear that is involved. these are general statements and not directed at a individual poster. i honestly think the events of our lives shape how we read the exact same clues in this case. where some people see a mom who is in pain i see a woman who moved a man she was not committed enough to marry in with 3 young girls. where some see the fact that cps has released nothing as lack of proof i see it as proof they have something the police do not want to become public to protect the case. maybe one of us is right and the other wrong but most often the truth lies in the middle somewhere.

i am glad you were able to turn the abuse you suffered to lead you to a life of helping kids. i wish i had that strength. for me just making sure my kids have a normal mother takes all i have. people who do your job are often over looked for the firefighter/solider/police officer. they are heroes but so are people like you who help these innocent children rebuild their lives.

 

[southcitymom]

Sherri, Salem and Lilybug,

I'm no fan of women who put their children in harm's way, to be certain. I was really just pointing out that that particular TOS is incredibly subjective and hard to police. Someone I perceive as a victim may be someone you perceive as culpable.

As Sherri knows, I am the type of poster who is loathe to whale on someone (particularly someone who has just buried their child) until some pretty hard facts are in. That said, I understand other posters here have a different process with that. I'm not begrudging anyone that right - just pointing out another side to things.

I also think it's fair to make generalizations - we all do it every day as we navigate the world. But for all generalizations there are exceptions that prove the rule. I won't get personal about someone touched by a crime like this until I know they don't fall into the exceptions camp.

I do agree that when looking at crimes against children, we must always first start to look at the home. I disagree with lilybug's opinion that it is not as common for fathers to abuse their children as it is for boyfriend/stepfather's to do it. I just know way way too many women who were abused/molested by their father or grandfather to believe otherwise.

To Sherri and Salem - all my love :blowkiss: for you being the survivors you are. Sherri and I are buddies who approach these things from different angles - but our hearts are in the same place!!

 

[Lilybug1]

SouthCity,

I can respect our differences of opinion...that's what a friendly discussion board is all about!

Anyhow, I should clarify that my comments were not directly related to this particular victim's mother and I wasn't suggesting that she be charged based on the little information we have about her knowledge. I really don't know the details of her situation as the authorities are actually pretty guarded, but I was speaking in general about these types of cases where a boyfriend or stepfather ends of abusing and/or murdering a child. I just find it unlikely that the boyfriend just snapped one day and raped her for the first time and then proceeded to kill her and that there were no signs of violence or perversion...but it is possible. Of course, it's possible that the mother wouldn't pick up on the hints until after this incident made them glaringly clear. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[southcitymom]

SouthCity,

I can respect our differences of opinion...that's what a friendly discussion board is all about!

Anyhow, I should clarify that my comments were not directly related to this particular victim's mother and I wasn't suggesting that she be charged based on the little information we have about her knowledge. I really don't know the details of her situation as the authorities are actually pretty guarded, but I was speaking in general about these types of cases where a boyfriend or stepfather ends of abusing and/or murdering a child. I just find it unlikely that the boyfriend just snapped one day and raped her for the first time and then proceeded to kill her and that there were no signs of violence or perversion...but it is possible. Of course, it's possible that the mother wouldn't pick up on the hints until after this incident made them glaringly clear. Hindsight is 20/20.

I hear you, Lilybug - I truly do. And I agree that it is hard to imagine a boyfriend doing something like this clear out of the blue with no red flags having been raised somewhere along the way.

I am really looking forward to more facts being released. I would like to know that the right man for this crime is behind bars. I believe he probably is.

And of course I am curious as to any history that may have been present with this boyfriend and children. Certainly the kiddie on his computer evidence has me believing the worst.

 

[SewingDeb]

Idaho Mom and Sherry, my heart goes out to you. No child should have to live that way!

I am really hoping that in this case the mother, Dana Mack, had no idea this was even a possibility. I do wonder about a 6 year old child being left on the couch at 1:00 a.m. rather than being carried to her bed but we really don't know all the facts yet. I just hope she is not one to turn her back on evidence of abuse going on in her household.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Gabby- I'm just trying to get my mind around how someone can do this in the home while Mom's there. I am sure that things can happen when she's asleep, etc. I'm just working on the logistics of this. Sorry, not trying to offend.
:truce:

I was just thinking of how many kids who are left sleeping on a davenport end up raped and dead.

 

[Gabby]

Idaho Mom and Sherry, my heart goes out to you. No child should have to live that way!

I am really hoping that in this case the mother, Dana Mack, had no idea this was even a possibility. I do wonder about a 6 year old child being left on the couch at 1:00 a.m. rather than being carried to her bed but we really don't know all the facts yet. I just hope she is not one to turn her back on evidence of abuse going on in her household.

The difference in the hours the two worked, her with her job as a dishwasher and he with is at a convenience store, may have kept her from knowing what was on the home computer. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until more evidence is presented.

 

[sherri79]

The difference in the hours the two worked, her with her job as a dishwasher and he with is at a convenience store, may have kept her from knowing what was on the home computer. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until more evidence is presented.

i total understand where you are coming from. how does the cps report factor in for you? for me it factors in huge. if the police say dont release the report a report must exist. if there was a report of abuse even if it was "unfounded" it was a warning sign imo.

 

[Gabby]

i total understand where you are coming from. how does the cps report factor in for you? for me it factors in huge. if the police say dont release the report a report must exist. if there was a report of abuse even if it was "unfounded" it was a warning sign imo.

This does bother me...but I don't know if there was a report or if there wasn't and the police are being cautious. This is another we have to wait and see.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I wonder if there is some bit of information in the CPS report which could put a witness or informant in more danger if it were to be released. Perhaps Hanna was killed so she wouldn't talk but the killer was not aware that a different witness has incriminating information.

Any chance this moron will get out on bail? I wonder if she was being abused by more than one person. Someone else could be a danger to others mentioned in the report as witnesses or victims. I wonder if the boyfriend kept the kiddie to himself or if he sent or sold pics to someone else on the internet.

Susan

 

[KitCat1965]

IdahoMom, I am very new to this - just wanted to comment on your #70, my daughter who is 7 years old, still sleeps with me, I don't care what people say, I know she is safe with me and no one can take her....

I hope they Hang the person who did this to that little angel.

 

[wavers]

Corsicana Sun reported today that Anders was listed as a witness in hanging in 2006. Odd coincidence?

http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/local/local_story_261010500.html

 

[Jean]

Corsicana Sun reported today that Anders was listed as a witness in hanging in 2006. Odd coincidence?

http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/local/local_story_261010500.html

They are not mentioning the 2006 hanging victim's name, age or sex. The wording just danced around that--at least it seems that way to me. I was able to determine that it must have been a male because "he" was stated near the bottom of the article.

If Anders didn't have anything to do with the 2006 hanging, he could have gotten ideas from his "witness" experience--and used his knowledge to kill that sweet little girl.

 

[Gabby]

They are not mentioning the 2006 hanging victim's name, age or sex. The wording just danced around that--at least it seems that way to me. I was able to determine that it must have been a male because "he" was stated near the bottom of the article.

If Anders didn't have anything to do with the 2006 hanging, he could have gotten ideas from his "witness" experience--and used his knowledge to kill that sweet little girl.

Late teen's early 20's

 

[Jean]

Late teen's early 20's

Gabby, thanks for the info. I am glad to hear it wasn't a little girl. However, I am sorry to hear that a 20 year old was so unhappy that he did took his life.

Have you heard anymore about this case that you can share, or would feel comfortable sharing? Thanks.

 

[Gabby]

Gabby, thanks for the info. I am glad to hear it wasn't a little girl. However, I am sorry to hear that a 20 year old was so unhappy that he did took his life.

Have you heard anymore about this case that you can share, or would feel comfortable sharing? Thanks.

I can not because of confidentiality laws. All I can say is he was a consumer in our MR center.