TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[dh109977]

I hope that too, but this particular demonstration was actully those who wanted Marlise to be kept on life support.
Viability of the fetus will be determined in 3 weeks. And maybe (or even likely) it's wrong that family wishes were not considered.
But at this time, I just hope no decision is made until it's determined whether the fetus is viable considering how soon it will be clear whether fetus has a chance or not.

I can understand the family being upset because their wishes weren't considered. But this baby was wanted up until the mother passed away.

That is very sad but the baby is still growing. Still has a heartbeat. Still deserves a chance. I don't understand why they wouldn't want that last piece of this mother to live on.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I can understand the family being upset because their wishes weren't considered. But this baby was wanted up until the mother passed away.



That is very sad but the baby is still growing. Still has a heartbeat. Still deserves a chance. I don't understand why they wouldn't want that last piece of this mother to live on.

IMO and that's the rub.

It should be a family decision.


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[jjenny]

I can understand the family being upset because their wishes weren't considered. But this baby was wanted up until the mother passed away.

That is very sad but the baby is still growing. Still has a heartbeat. Still deserves a chance. I don't understand why they wouldn't want that last piece of this mother to live on.

I agree that the baby deserves a chance. What gives me big pause is that there is a good chance the baby might end up severely disabled.
It's one thing if the baby is either dead or normally developing.
But what if the baby is severely disabled? It doesn't look like the hospital will turn off life support if the fetus is found to be viable but abnormal.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree that the baby deserves a chance. What gives me big pause is that there is a good chance the baby might end up severely disabled.

It's one thing if the baby is either dead or normally developing.

But what if the baby is severely disabled? It doesn't look like the hospital will turn off life support if the fetus is found to be viable but abnormal.

That's a whole other grey area isn't it? Eliminating and marginalizing the disabled.

Still IMO should be a family decision.


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[Fairy1]

I hope this child pulls through with no long term effects. Then someday when He or she is older can laugh in the faces of everyone who wanted this poor child dead.

What a sick world we live in.

This comment is extremely offensive and blantantly obvious in its intent to incite.

Can you provide even just one example proving that anyone, anywhere has said they want this child dead?

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Thank you for your kind words.

I think that from this point forward it is best that I not comment too much. I am so passionate about this case that I fear my comments would offend too many people. My blood pressure is already in the stratosphere & I don't want to cause others to have the same problem. I'm just an old peace loving hippie.eace:

Then what are you doing in Texas?

Come to the West Coast, we're all hippies out here!

 

[dh109977]

This comment is extremely offensive and blantantly obvious in its intent to incite.

Can you provide even just one example proving that anyone, anywhere has said they want this child dead?

Really? One example? Are serious? They want to disconnect the mother from life support that = dead baby. Not really sure how you don't get that.

 

[Elainera]

This comment is extremely offensive and blantantly obvious in its intent to incite.

Can you provide even just one example proving that anyone, anywhere has said they want this child dead?

Uh, iirc someone wanted to turn off life support for the mother, no secret there. Doesn't sound to me they wanted this child alive.

No judgment intended on my part, but facts are facts.

Not sure where you see the intend to offense or incite in the post you quoted, and 'extremely' at that. I must be blind since it you find it so blatantly obvious. :waitasec:

 

[dh109977]

I agree that the baby deserves a chance. What gives me big pause is that there is a good chance the baby might end up severely disabled.
It's one thing if the baby is either dead or normally developing.
But what if the baby is severely disabled? It doesn't look like the hospital will turn off life support if the fetus is found to be viable but abnormal.

I have thought about that. My hope is that this baby pulls through and has the quality of life it deserves. Not be disabled. It would break my heart to see this baby born and have to suffer through life

 

[Elainera]

I agree that the baby deserves a chance. What gives me big pause is that there is a good chance the baby might end up severely disabled.
It's one thing if the baby is either dead or normally developing.
But what if the baby is severely disabled? It doesn't look like the hospital will turn off life support if the fetus is found to be viable but abnormal.

Do hospitals abort from a normal (non-brain dead) patient after 22 weeks when a fetus is viable but abnormal?

 

[kincaid]

I agree that the baby deserves a chance. What gives me big pause is that there is a good chance the baby might end up severely disabled.
It's one thing if the baby is either dead or normally developing.
But what if the baby is severely disabled? It doesn't look like the hospital will turn off life support if the fetus is found to be viable but abnormal.

My guess is that the hospital would allow the baby to be born and give comfort care until it's natural death, similar to what Catholic hospitals do for anencephalic babies. Quality of life does factor into the course of treatment for preemies and the father would also be able to decide how aggressive of care the baby gets.

 

[K_Z]

That's a whole other grey area isn't it? Eliminating and marginalizing the disabled.

Still IMO should be a family decision.


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BBM. Sadly, I think the situation is even more "gray" than that. This is not a case of a fetus who was known to be anencephalic, or gravely deformed, or afflicted with a terminal condition, or severely disabled. This is a case where policy mandates that the state actually is creating the conditions in which a baby can be produced that is almost certainly gravely disabled. It was never a case of just a little more time to mature the lungs. This fetus was in the very, very early stages of development, and then suffered a staggering hypoxic insult on top of the brain death of the mother.

To me, that is quite a bit more disturbing than elective termination of a fetus that is known to be severely disabled, or afflicted with a condition incompatible with life.

This woman died a "natural" death from a complication that could not be anticipated. In any other time in history, and in most of the world except the US, her very immature fetus would have died with her. But because of irrational politics, the state of Texas is commanding otherwise. That is more than marginalizing the disabled. It's very disturbing to me.

There is no informed consent for what is going on right now with the body AND the fetus of Marlise Munoz. And no consensus at all in the medical and science field about what is going on, and what is being attempted. That is profoundly disturbing to me. That isn't marginalizing the disabled.

I just cannot comprehend the mindset that so many people hold out (IMO, unrealistic and magical) hope that this fetus will be perfectly normal. In the same way, I cannot fathom that so many people actually believe Jahi McMath will arise from brain death "if only" there is enough hope and prayer, and fish oil and such. I really wish I could have that kind of blind hope sometimes. It would make some really difficult things in life a lot easier, I guess.

All of the "tests" that are quoted as occurring at 24 week will only determine at what point the docs decide to do the c/section. Because of aggressive politics, there is pretty much "no" chance that MM will have her ventilator withdrawn before the time that the fetus is removed from her body, unless the fetal heart stops.

And if you want to think about some really awful things, imagine the eventual C-section on MM's body. It is almost certain her body will not be removed from the OR with her heart still beating. She is destined for the morgue, not the recovery room.

The fetus will be delivered in under 60 seconds from the first cut. And then what of MM's body? Will they bother peeling out the placenta? Will they collect cord blood for stem cells? Will the suction tips merely be placed in the boggy, hemorrhaging uterus and allow her to bleed out, until her heart finally stops? Will we (the surgical team) just shut off the monitors and the vent, and watch? Or walk away? This isn't an organ procurement, so the surgical team will be FROM THIS HOSPITAL staff. And they all have to go to work the next day, and the next.

There is no point in managing hemorrhage, doing a gravid hysterectomy, or trying to clamp her uterus down, or any other things that usually happen after delivery of the baby. Her body isn't meant to leave the OR with a beating heart, for some sterile, calm withdrawal of the ventilator with low lights, while comforting music is playing. The reality is that this is going to be a horrendous, bloody, traumatic experience for everyone in the OR.

The infant will be whisked away to another location as soon as the cord is cut. And MM's body will lay there, bleeding, weary, dead, and used up. Waiting for the toe tag and the shroud. Picture that.

ETA: Maybe they will cross clamp her aorta. That would stop some of the distressing hemorrhage a little faster. Which lucky resident gets to do that?

 

[dh109977]

BBM. Sadly, I think the situation is even more "gray" than that. This is not a case of a fetus who was known to be anencephalic, or gravely deformed, or afflicted with a terminal condition, or severely disabled. This is a case where policy mandates that the state actually is creating the conditions in which a baby can be produced that is almost certainly gravely disabled. It was never a case of just a little more time to mature the lungs. This fetus was in the very, very early stages of development, and then suffered a staggering hypoxic insult on top of the brain death of the mother.

To me, that is quite a bit more disturbing than elective termination of a fetus that is known to be severely disabled, or afflicted with a condition incompatible with life.

This woman died a "natural" death from a complication that could not be anticipated. In any other time in history, and in most of the world except the US, her very immature fetus would have died with her. But because of irrational politics, the state of Texas is commanding otherwise. That is more than marginalizing the disabled. It's very disturbing to me.

There is no informed consent for what is going on right now with the body AND the fetus of Marlise Munoz. And no consensus at all in the medical and science field about what is going on, and what is being attempted. That is profoundly disturbing to me. That isn't marginalizing the disabled.

I just cannot comprehend the mindset that so many people hold out (IMO, unrealistic and magical) hope that this fetus will be perfectly normal. In the same way, I cannot fathom that so many people actually believe Jahi McMath will arise from brain death "if only" there is enough hope and prayer, and fish oil and such. I really wish I could have that kind of blind hope sometimes. It would make some really difficult things in life a lot easier, I guess.

All of the "tests" that are quoted as occurring at 24 week will only determine at what point the docs decide to do the c/section. Because of aggressive politics, there is pretty much "no" chance that MM will have her ventilator withdrawn before the time that the fetus is removed from her body, unless the fetal heart stops.

And if you want to think about some really awful things, imagine the eventual C-section on MM's body. It is almost certain her body will not be removed from the OR with her heart still beating. She is destined for the morgue, not the recovery room.

The fetus will be delivered in under 60 seconds from the first cut. And then what of MM's body? Will they bother peeling out the placenta? Will they collect cord blood for stem cells? Will the suction tips merely be placed in the boggy, hemorrhaging uterus and allow her to bleed out, until her heart finally stops? Will we (the surgical team) just shut off the monitors and the vent, and watch? Or walk away? This isn't an organ procurement, so the surgical team will be FROM THIS HOSPITAL staff. And they all have to go to work the next day, and the next.

There is no point in managing hemorrhage, doing a gravid hysterectomy, or trying to clamp her uterus down, or any other things that usually happen after delivery of the baby. Her body isn't meant to leave the OR with a beating heart, for some sterile, calm withdrawal of the ventilator with low lights, while comforting music is playing. The reality is that this is going to be a horrendous, bloody, traumatic experience for everyone in the OR.

The infant will be whisked away to another location as soon as the cord is cut. And MM's body will lay there, bleeding, weary, dead, and used up. Waiting for the toe tag and the shroud. Picture that.

ETA: Maybe they will cross clamp her aorta. That would stop some of the distressing hemorrhage a little faster. Which lucky resident gets to do that?

While I am holding out hope for the baby. I understand that it's most likely not gonna be a happy ending.


But why would they just leave her body after the c section? Why not clean her up. Even if she isn't leaving the Or alive. Why won't the give her the same treatment as everyone else. That's really awful what you described. I hope that's not how it all happens.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM. Sadly, I think the situation is even more "gray" than that. This is not a case of a fetus who was known to be anencephalic, or gravely deformed, or afflicted with a terminal condition, or severely disabled. This is a case where policy mandates that the state actually is creating the conditions in which a baby can be produced that is almost certainly gravely disabled. It was never a case of just a little more time to mature the lungs. This fetus was in the very, very early stages of development, and then suffered a staggering hypoxic insult on top of the brain death of the mother.



To me, that is quite a bit more disturbing than elective termination of a fetus that is known to be severely disabled, or afflicted with a condition incompatible with life.



This woman died a "natural" death from a complication that could not be anticipated. In any other time in history, and in most of the world except the US, her very immature fetus would have died with her. But because of irrational politics, the state of Texas is commanding otherwise. That is more than marginalizing the disabled. It's very disturbing to me.



There is no informed consent for what is going on right now with the body AND the fetus of Marlise Munoz. And no consensus at all in the medical and science field about what is going on, and what is being attempted. That is profoundly disturbing to me. That isn't marginalizing the disabled.



I just cannot comprehend the mindset that so many people hold out (IMO, unrealistic and magical) hope that this fetus will be perfectly normal. In the same way, I cannot fathom that so many people actually believe Jahi McMath will arise from brain death "if only" there is enough hope and prayer, and fish oil and such. I really wish I could have that kind of blind hope sometimes. It would make some really difficult things in life a lot easier, I guess.



All of the "tests" that are quoted as occurring at 24 week will only determine at what point the docs decide to do the c/section. Because of aggressive politics, there is pretty much "no" chance that MM will have her ventilator withdrawn before the time that the fetus is removed from her body, unless the fetal heart stops.



And if you want to think about some really awful things, imagine the eventual C-section on MM's body. It is almost certain her body will not be removed from the OR with her heart still beating. She is destined for the morgue, not the recovery room.



The fetus will be delivered in under 60 seconds from the first cut. And then what of MM's body? Will they bother peeling out the placenta? Will they collect cord blood for stem cells? Will the suction tips merely be placed in the boggy, hemorrhaging uterus and allow her to bleed out, until her heart finally stops? Will we (the surgical team) just shut off the monitors and the vent, and watch? Or walk away? This isn't an organ procurement, so the surgical team will be FROM THIS HOSPITAL staff. And they all have to go to work the next day, and the next.



There is no point in managing hemorrhage, doing a gravid hysterectomy, or trying to clamp her uterus down, or any other things that usually happen after delivery of the baby. Her body isn't meant to leave the OR with a beating heart, for some sterile, calm withdrawal of the ventilator with low lights, while comforting music is playing. The reality is that this is going to be a horrendous, bloody, traumatic experience for everyone in the OR.



The infant will be whisked away to another location as soon as the cord is cut. And MM's body will lay there, bleeding, weary, dead, and used up. Waiting for the toe tag and the shroud. Picture that.



ETA: Maybe they will cross clamp her aorta. That would stop some of the distressing hemorrhage a little faster. Which lucky resident gets to do that?

Your post certainly drew back the curtain on the harsh reality of what will happen. Made me cry a little. I can't imagine what the family is going through.
Again... IMO The government has no business making these sorts of decisions.



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[K_Z]

I have thought about that. My hope is that this baby pulls through and has the quality of life it deserves. Not be disabled. It would break my heart to see this baby born and have to suffer through life

The "quality of life it deserves?" What does that mean?

Some babies "deserve" a different quality of life than others?

What makes a baby deserving, or not deserving, of some criteria, or level of care, that defines quality of life?

It's not just the baby who will suffer if the baby is profoundly damaged., and with a life time of pain and suffering. MM's husband, existing son, parents, friends and family, and every health care worker who cares for that child will share in the vicarious suffering the State of Texas will have created, against the will of the mother, and her husband.

The state of Texas will not suffer at all, whether this fetus lives, or dies. Politicians will not suffer. Rabid pro-lifers will not suffer. They will celebrate the delivery of a beating heart, no matter the collateral damage. And go on to stick their noses into the next womb with a public view. And then completely forget about the child and family that remains. They get to walk away and forget. That's a nice privilege, they have given themselves, IMO.

 

[dh109977]

The "quality of life it deserves?" What does that mean?

Some babies "deserve" a different quality of life than others?

What makes a baby deserving, or not deserving, of some criteria, or level of care, that defines quality of life?

It's not just the baby who will suffer if the baby is profoundly damaged., and with a life time of pain and suffering. MM's husband, existing son, parents, friends and family, and every health care worker who cares for that child will share in the vicarious suffering the State of Texas will have created, against the will of the mother, and her husband.

The state of Texas will not suffer at all, whether this fetus lives, or dies. Politicians will not suffer. Rabid pro-lifers will not suffer. They will celebrate the delivery of a beating heart, no matter the collateral damage. And go on to stick their noses into the next womb with a public view. And then completely forget about the child and family that remains. They get to walk away and forget. That's a nice privilege, they have given themselves, IMO.

The quality of life it deserves. Every child deserves the best quality of life. Sorry if you can't understand that.

The mother never put in writing what she would do if she was pregnant and on life support. We don't know that she wouldn't want everything done to save this baby. If there is something please provide a link.

She may have stated for her personally. Being pregnant is a whole nother ballgame.

My hope for this child is it is totally healthy and goes on to live a life where I hope to got it never googles it's mother to see how many people didn't give it a chance.

If the child is permantly damaged I hope they keep it as comfortable as possible. But we don't know which way it's gonna go. So I will wait til the results from the testing in 3 weeks.

 

[jjenny]

While I am holding out hope for the baby. I understand that it's most likely not gonna be a happy ending.


But why would they just leave her body after the c section? Why not clean her up. Even if she isn't leaving the Or alive. Why won't the give her the same treatment as everyone else. That's really awful what you described. I hope that's not how it all happens.

They can do the exact same c-section everybody gets. Nobody says they have to not close it up.

 

[jjenny]

BBM. Sadly, I think the situation is even more "gray" than that. This is not a case of a fetus who was known to be anencephalic, or gravely deformed, or afflicted with a terminal condition, or severely disabled. This is a case where policy mandates that the state actually is creating the conditions in which a baby can be produced that is almost certainly gravely disabled. It was never a case of just a little more time to mature the lungs. This fetus was in the very, very early stages of development, and then suffered a staggering hypoxic insult on top of the brain death of the mother.

To me, that is quite a bit more disturbing than elective termination of a fetus that is known to be severely disabled, or afflicted with a condition incompatible with life.

This woman died a "natural" death from a complication that could not be anticipated. In any other time in history, and in most of the world except the US, her very immature fetus would have died with her. But because of irrational politics, the state of Texas is commanding otherwise. That is more than marginalizing the disabled. It's very disturbing to me.

There is no informed consent for what is going on right now with the body AND the fetus of Marlise Munoz. And no consensus at all in the medical and science field about what is going on, and what is being attempted. That is profoundly disturbing to me. That isn't marginalizing the disabled.

I just cannot comprehend the mindset that so many people hold out (IMO, unrealistic and magical) hope that this fetus will be perfectly normal. In the same way, I cannot fathom that so many people actually believe Jahi McMath will arise from brain death "if only" there is enough hope and prayer, and fish oil and such. I really wish I could have that kind of blind hope sometimes. It would make some really difficult things in life a lot easier, I guess.

All of the "tests" that are quoted as occurring at 24 week will only determine at what point the docs decide to do the c/section. Because of aggressive politics, there is pretty much "no" chance that MM will have her ventilator withdrawn before the time that the fetus is removed from her body, unless the fetal heart stops.

And if you want to think about some really awful things, imagine the eventual C-section on MM's body. It is almost certain her body will not be removed from the OR with her heart still beating. She is destined for the morgue, not the recovery room.

The fetus will be delivered in under 60 seconds from the first cut. And then what of MM's body? Will they bother peeling out the placenta? Will they collect cord blood for stem cells? Will the suction tips merely be placed in the boggy, hemorrhaging uterus and allow her to bleed out, until her heart finally stops? Will we (the surgical team) just shut off the monitors and the vent, and watch? Or walk away? This isn't an organ procurement, so the surgical team will be FROM THIS HOSPITAL staff. And they all have to go to work the next day, and the next.

There is no point in managing hemorrhage, doing a gravid hysterectomy, or trying to clamp her uterus down, or any other things that usually happen after delivery of the baby. Her body isn't meant to leave the OR with a beating heart, for some sterile, calm withdrawal of the ventilator with low lights, while comforting music is playing. The reality is that this is going to be a horrendous, bloody, traumatic experience for everyone in the OR.

The infant will be whisked away to another location as soon as the cord is cut. And MM's body will lay there, bleeding, weary, dead, and used up. Waiting for the toe tag and the shroud. Picture that.

ETA: Maybe they will cross clamp her aorta. That would stop some of the distressing hemorrhage a little faster. Which lucky resident gets to do that?

While I can appreciate the gruesome description, how is it any less gruesome that what would happen if her organs are to be donated?
For organ donation to work, a donor has to be brain dead, with the heart beating (at least for some organs like that heart). Do they close up the donors after taking the heart out? Is that not a horrendous bloody experience for everybody in the OR?

 

[dh109977]

They can do the exact same c-section everybody gets. Nobody says they have to not close it up.

Thank goodness. That sounded so horrible. I figured. THank you for confirming though.

 

[jjenny]

My guess is that the hospital would allow the baby to be born and give comfort care until it's natural death, similar to what Catholic hospitals do for anencephalic babies. Quality of life does factor into the course of treatment for preemies and the father would also be able to decide how aggressive of care the baby gets.

Not every serverely disabled baby dies, though. If mother was alive, and had tests done, and was told fetus has severe disabilities, she could decide whether she wants the pregnancy to continue. But it doesn't sound like this will be allowed to happen since mother is brain dead.