TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[gitana1]

Here we go:

For the first time, John Peter Smith Hospital acknowledges that Marlise Munoz, who is being kept on a respirator under Texas law, has been brain dead since November 28 and that the "fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable," according to court documents released before a Friday hearing.http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/

 

[gitana1]

So that means the issue as to whether or not Ms. Munoz is brain dead, clinically dead, legally dead, has been determined. So can a dead person be a patient?

This really should be a quick decision for the court, I think.

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 1m
Photographers waiting for #MarliseMunoz family and attorneys. pic.twitter.com/HGCwh1vlB8

 

[gitana1]

I agree.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I see strong opinions on both sides. I do not see unkind comments, though, in the reports of protestors. Or threatening ones.

 

[gitana1]

For any of you who may have missed it, the hospital acknowledges that Ms. Munoz has been brain dead since November 28, 2013. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/

 

[K_Z]

Thanks, it did. So how can the fetus be kept stable. I mean how is her body a good incubator for the baby? At the early stage of her pregnancy, is it even possible for her body to be kept going long enough to allow for the formation of a viable fetus?

That's precisely why so many people, especially scientists, medical professionals, and ethicists, believe this is unethical experimentation.

This was never just a case of a couple weeks to mature the lungs in a fetus close to viability or term. This was a major gestational experiment, with no consent, no investigational review, no ethics committees, and no "best practices" or treatment and outcome criteria in the literature. And no professional collaboration, apparently, from outside of "whomever" is directing care inside JPS Hospital. That is supreme arrogance, that this doc or couple of docs, think they can go it alone, and make it up as they go. It's preposterous.

 

[NevadaMom]

I am not really sure what the "case" is. That's why I was wondering.

This isn't about hoping against hope that the baby will be born healthy. I was wondering (out loud, so to speak), if he would wish to carry on with the pregnancy if he could be assured the baby would be negatively unaffected due to the lack of oxygen.

I see him as not wanting to raise a possibly handicapped child. But if he knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the child would be born healthy, would he choose to continue the pregnancy.

I guess it's a rhetorical question.

We're talking about a woman who was barely into the second trimester being without a pulse or oxygen for an hour or more. Maybe if the pregnancy had been at a stage of viability it would have been very different, but it wasn't, and Erick Muñoz has enough medical training to understand what the chances of a totally healthy birth being the end result were.

After the information that was released about the fetus being abnormal there is no more speculation about a potentially healthy child being born. To play devil's advocate now is pretty much a moot point.

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 3m
Erick Munoz and her parents sitting behind the attorneys. Eyes welling up. #MarliseMunoz


Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 1m
Tarrant DA walked in. #MarliseMunoz


Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 2m
Attorneys, Machado, and Munoz families exchanging long hugs. #MarliseMunoz

 

[DeeMarie]

For any of you who may have missed it, the hospital acknowledges that Ms. Munoz has been brain dead since November 28, 2013. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/

Then the hospital should have no issues legally declaring her brain dead so she can be given back to her husband - no longer making her Texas state property?

 

[popsicle]

FW Star-Telegram ‏@startelegram 7m
At today's court hearing, husband Erick #Munoz was escorted in by lawyers."He is weeping as he sits," @tsmadigan reports.

 

[NevadaMom]

For any of you who may have missed it, the hospital acknowledges that Ms. Munoz has been brain dead since November 28, 2013. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/

"For the first time, John Peter Smith Hospital acknowledges that Marlise Munoz, who is being kept on a respirator under Texas law, has been brain dead since November 28 and that the "fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable," according to court documents released before a Friday hearing."

With that admission is there anything legally that the hospital or state can use now to deny Erick Muñoz's wishes that his wife be removed from life support?

That's precisely why so many people, especially scientists, medical professionals, and ethicists, believe this is unethical experimentation.

This was never just a case of a couple weeks to mature the lungs in a fetus close to viability or term. This was a major gestational experiment, with no consent, no investigational review, no ethics committees, and no "best practices" or treatment and outcome criteria in the literature. And no professional collaboration, apparently, from outside of "whomever" is directing care inside JPS Hospital. That is supreme arrogance, that this doc or couple of docs, think they can go it alone, and make it up as they go. It's preposterous.

BBM ... *shudder* That is sincerely scary that they pretty much just took this into their own hands. Could this cause them to lose their licensing? Or will they be able to use the laws they felt they were upholding to avoid any repercussions?

 

[gitana1]

Then the hospital should have no issues legally declaring her brain dead so she can be given back to her husband - no longer making her Texas state property?

Well, IMO, the court should be able to decide this quickly today.

 

[NevadaMom]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/

In an affidavit filed Thursday in court, Erick Munoz said little to him now is recognizable about Marlise. Her bones crack when her stiff limbs move. Her usual scent has been replaced by the "smell of death." And her once lively eyes have become "soulless."

:anguish::anguish::anguish:

Her loved ones should never have had to be put through this. Opinions about the pregnancy aside - this is beyond disrespectful to Marlise and her memory. This is what her loved ones will remember.

I'm not generally squeamish, but I want to throw up right now. :scared:

 

[faw720]

On the really, really, remote chance that the judge somehow has an enlightenment, and rules that MM is not a "patient" and can be removed from the ventilator "immediately", I strongly suspect the hospital attorney/s already have prepared a request for an emergency injunction or appeal (not sure what it's called) to prevent the removal of the vent.

As in the Jahi McMath case, I do hope the Judge requires an independent neurologist to examine MM's body and confirm the diagnosis of irreversible brain death (not an OB GYN, or an internist, or intensivist, or cardiologist, etc). I think that's essential, at this point-- to bring in someone from outside of the hospital hierarchy, to lend some impartiality. And this neurologist should have no identifiable connections to any pro life groups or pro life politicians, OR pro choice groups, for maximum transparency. A professional with impeccable credentials, who will make decisions based on scientific and medical findings, and not emotion, religion, and politics.

I also hope that an independent perinatal specialist from outside the hospital is ordered to examine the fetus and make a report to the court, too. Even if we never hear about it. I am very bothered by the air of secrecy surrounding EM's access to information about his wife's body, and the condition of the fetus. IMO, the hospital sees him only as an obstacle, because he isn't going along lockstep with their extremist plans.

I feel so sorry for EM and MM's parents. They have conducted themselves with dignity and decorum at every stage of this fiasco. They have not pandered to the public, when they very easily could have. My heart goes out to them for the harsh judgments and nasty words aimed at them. I wonder how EM will be able to go back to work-- there are so many activist pro life people who hate this man, that I really worry for his safety. The activist prolife extremists are well known to resort to violence when passions are inflamed, and I worry for this man, his toddler, and MM's parents. It is so unfair. None of this is their doing.

Sorry, I can't provide a link, but I believe Erick Munoz has already returned to work at least for part of the time. His bosses & co-workers have been extremely kind to him. For many weeks, they worked his shifts so that he could remain at Marlise's side & others from his station have stayed with her at times. Other EMTs & firemen organized a campaign to collect donations of food & diapers for little Mateo. The donations have been so overwhelming that Erick has asked for the donations to be stopped. He says "He doesn't want anything (food, I presume) to be wasted". He adds that he is profoundly grateful for all the help he has received. In addition, there is supposedly a fund set up at Wells Fargo Bank for monetary donations. His co-workers & other kind people of the area support him 100%.

However, as you mentioned there are those active pro life extremists who could be extremely dangerous & I think this is something that law enforcement should be preparing for. If by some small chance, the judge decides in Erick's favor, I think he will also be subject to death threats & harm.

I know of at least one case several years ago where the pro life extremists were trying to shut down an abortion clinic. One man accomplished this by shooting & killing the doctor who ran the clinic. Those people really have a skewed sense of values. BTW, this case was not in Texas.

I wholeheartedly endorse your recommendation of an independent neurologist.

I just pray that the suffering of the entire Munoz family will soon end. Of course, in the long run their suffering will last for a lifetime. I just want the politicos, state & hospital to "butt out". They have already done a ridiculous amount of damage to a loving, suffering, innocent family!!

 

[K_Z]

If doctors and scientists want to study gestation in brain dead hosts, there IS an ethical way to do this. It is by engaging in the scientific process. That means doing designing animal model studies, collaborating broadly within the scientific and medical community of experts, and obtaining investigational review approval to do animal studies first. (And the animal rights supporters would protest that loudly.)

Then do several thousand animal model studies, develop human experimental protocols, and launch a prospective study using those protocols in facilities who agree to participate. Families of brain dead pregnant women would be approached and offered to participate in the study, if they wished.

That is a brief example of how ETHICAL science develops new treatment protocols. Even in terminal cancer patients, we don't just "wing it" and start doing any untested thing that someone thinks "might" help. Especially when it involves pregnant women, fetuses, and brain death.

Medicine, by necessity, practices using the consensus model. Doctors and others who deviate substantially from mainstream "best practices" models are usually ostracized and distanced by their peers. Except in politically charged arenas like pro life/ pro choice politics. Then it's okay to deviate from mainstream practice, as long as you "believe" you are doing the right thing, apparently.

Are we are supposed to squeeze our eyes tight, not think too deeply, and just blindly trust the outliers who "take the risk" to engage in unregulated, unapproved, unstudied experiments, just in case they hit it lucky and a not-too-badly damaged child is produced? SMH. I don't think so.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, IMO, the court should be able to decide this quickly today.

My own eyes are swelling with tears.
I so hope the court decides quickly and in favor of the family.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker @jobinpnews
Judge wants all cell phones off.



Jobin Panicker @jobinpnews
Still tweeting! Having to walk outside to do it.

 

[oh_gal]

We're talking about a woman who was barely into the second trimester being without a pulse or oxygen for an hour or more. Maybe if the pregnancy had been at a stage of viability it would have been very different, but it wasn't, and Erick Muñoz has enough medical training to understand what the chances of a totally healthy birth being the end result were.

After the information that was released about the fetus being abnormal there is no more speculation about a potentially healthy child being born. To play devil's advocate now is pretty much a moot point.

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of that (playing devil's advocate) goes on here at WS. I don't really believe there's anything wrong with that -- on the contrary, I believe it encourages people to stretch their minds, and see different possibilities, thereby avoiding becoming narrow minded in their beliefs. None of us here has any say in what ultimately happens, at any rate.

 

[jjenny]

Thanks, it did. So how can the fetus be kept stable. I mean how is her body a good incubator for the baby? At the early stage of her pregnancy, is it even possible for her body to be kept going long enough to allow for the formation of a viable fetus?

Viable means able to survive outside the womb. So it certainly is possible. She is at almost 23 weeks gestation now. 24 weeks gestation is considered viable.

 

[oh_gal]

From a legal standpoint, is there anything that someone could put into their advance directives to avoid having this happen in the future? Ordinarily, I would think you would just state in your living will that you don't want to be kept alive by machines alone. Do your personal wishes trump laws like this? Or is the law above personal wishes?