TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[gitana1]

This is a truly bizarre case to me. In my personal (not legal) and emotion-based opinion, forcing the family to endure this makes little sense. It is ghoulish. It's even beyond what the mother wanted, since she is now a corpse.

Like others said, it would be different if the baby was close to term. Then I could understand keeping the body going a short time to allow the baby to be born, but come on. Not only is the fetus not viable, it is horribly deformed. So the hospital is forcing a family to watch their loved one's corpse incubate an apparently horribly damaged fetus that is so deformed, it's gender cannot even be determined. That's is insane to me.

I hope the court allows this family the dignity of making their own, private, personal decisions and lets them let their loved ones go. The hospital is playing God here, IMO. There have to be limits on what technology and science are allowed to accomplish with human beings against their wishes.

 

[popsicle]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 25s
Attorneys for #MarliseMunoz stressed that she's dead at least 20 times.

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 1m
Both sides have presented arguments. Recessing until 4:15.

 

[gitana1]

From a legal standpoint, is there anything that someone could put into their advance directives to avoid having this happen in the future? Ordinarily, I would think you would just state in your living will that you don't want to be kept alive by machines alone. Do your personal wishes trump laws like this? Or is the law above personal wishes?

Under the law as it is written, no, when it comes to people who are not brain dead. My research of the law here, though, and the facts of this case make me believe the law indeed is being misapplied here because the woman is dead. Actual legislators who helped draft the law state it is being misapplied and that's more than enough for me.

 

[jjenny]

This is a truly bizarre case to me. In my personal (not legal) and emotion-based opinion, forcing the family to endure this makes little sense. It is ghoulish. It's even beyond what the mother wanted, since she is now a corpse.

Like others said, it would be different if the baby was close to term. Then I could understand keeping the body going a short time to allow the baby to be born, but come on. Not only is the fetus not viable, it is horribly deformed. So the hospital is forcing a family to watch their loved one's corpse incubate an apparently horribly damaged fetus that is so deformed, it's gender cannot even be determined. That's is insane to me.

I hope the court allows this family the dignity of making their own, private, personal decisions and lets them let their loved ones go. The hospital is playing God here, IMO. There have to be limits on what technology and science are allowed to accomplish with human beings against their wishes.

They can now keep brain dead persons on life support for a long time. There have been sucessful cases of brain dead women delivering normal fetuses. I am not sure why this one is so abnormal. Possibly it was abnormal even before mother collapsed.

 

[Elainera]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 25s
Attorneys for #MarliseMunoz stressed that she's dead at least 20 times.

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 1m
Both sides have presented arguments. Recessing until 4:15.

bbm - what time is it there now?

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker @jobinpnews

Judge says this is not about the constitutionality of the law. Possible ruling in 15 minutes.

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 48s
Attorneys for Munoz say "JPS is using #MarliseMunoz body as a science experiment"

 

[jjenny]

Under the law as it is written, no, when it comes to people who are not brain dead. My research of the law here, though, and the facts of this case make me believe the law indeed is being misapplied here because the woman is dead. Actual legislators who helped draft the law state it is being misapplied and that's more than enough for me.

Let's say hospital has two women. Both pregnant. One on the left has some brain activity, but is on a ventillator, can not eat on her own, can not communicate. One on the right has no brain activity.
But they are in exact same condition otherwise.
Why some brain activity that doesn't translate into anything else should make all the difference?
The way legislators wrote this law, it doesn't seem they cared about anything else but continuing with the pregnancy.

 

[popsicle]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 3m
Judge says this is not about the constitutionality of the law. Possible ruling in 15 minutes.

 

[gitana1]

Viable means able to survive outside the womb. So it certainly is possible. She is at almost 23 weeks gestation now. 24 weeks gestation is considered viable.

I was asking the medical professional. Because the length of gestation apparently is not the only factor in viability. K_Z was describing a scenario in which the body cannot regulate its own temperature, or blood pressure, etc., so it appears to me that the corpse may not be able to host the fetus to viability due to those issues. This, apparently, is not the case of a live body with a normal or close to normal circulatory or nervous system. But, I have not received an answer from her yet.

 

[Softail]

bbm - what time is it there now?

4:04 in Ft. Worth

 

[jjenny]

I was asking the medical professional. Because the length of gestation apparently is not the only factor in viability. K_Z was describing a scenario in which the body cannot regulate its own temperature, or blood pressure, etc., so it appears to me that the corpse may not be able to host the fetus to viability due to those issues. This, apparently, is not the case of a live body with a normal or close to normal circulatory or nervous system. But, I have not received an answer from her yet.

There have been a number of cases where normal infant was produced from a brain dead mother. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 32s
Attorneys for #MarliseMunoz contending Health Code 166.049 does not apply to her.

 

[NevadaMom]

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of that (playing devil's advocate) goes on here at WS. I don't really believe there's anything wrong with that -- on the contrary, I believe it encourages people to stretch their minds, and see different possibilities, thereby avoiding becoming narrow minded in their beliefs. None of us here has any say in what ultimately happens, at any rate.

You were making speculations that we already know are simply not plausible in this specific case, and then accusing others of not understanding what you were saying and splitting hairs. So pardon me for calling out devil's advocacy that is no longer really valid.

Did you really not understand what I wrote, or are you just splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs?

 

[jjenny]

Jobin Panicker ‏@jobinpnews 32s
Attorneys for #MarliseMunoz contending Health Code 166.049 does not apply to her.

What does hospital say in response?

 

[Linda7NJ]

They can now keep brain dead persons on life support for a long time. There have been sucessful cases of brain dead women delivering normal fetuses. I am not sure why this one is so abnormal. Possibly it was abnormal even before mother collapsed.

IMO and very unprofessional opinion I think much has to do with the time frame. A pregnant woman who stops breathing for two minutes yet suffers brain deth due to ...let's say...a head injury...the fetus would fair far better.


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[jjenny]

IMO and very unprofessional opinion I think much has to do with the time frame. A pregnant woman who stops breathing for two minutes yet suffers brain deth due to ...let's say...a head injury...the fetus would fair far better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I imagine so. But this fetus possibly was abnormal even prior to mother's collapse.

 

[Softail]

What does hospital say in response?

:dunno: The reporter didn't say...

 

[NevadaMom]

There have been a number of cases where normal infant was produced from a brain dead mother. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

I'm not sure if cases have been cited upthread, but have there been any where the woman was brain dead as early on in the pregnancy as MM where the infant was still normal?

 

[gitana1]

Let's say hospital has two women. Both pregnant. One on the left has some brain activity, but is on a ventillator, can not eat on her own, can not communicate. One on the right has no brain activity.
But they are in exact same condition otherwise.
Why some brain activity that doesn't translate into anything else should make all the difference?
The way legislators wrote this law, it doesn't seem they cared about anything else but continuing with the pregnancy.

Well, look at the Jahi McMath case. A vegetative state (some brain activity) is not considered legally dead. That's your answer.

But that's the legal answer. The personal opinion answers may be different. For me, I think the difference may be (help K_Z!), that a person with some brain activity has a nervous and circulatory system that can sustain a life growing inside it. It seems that a brain dead corpse can only incubate a horribly damaged fetus. But i don't know for sure.

 

[Softail]

Jobin Panicker @jobinpnews

Tarrant Asst. DA says "the state has a strong interest in protecting this unborn child."