TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[BellaVita]

Speaking about this part of the exchange:
(Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sandra-bland-arrest-transcript_55b03a88e4b0a9b94853b1f1

Encinia: You mind putting out your cigarette, please? If you don't mind?

Bland: I'm in my car, why do I have to put out my cigarette?

Encinia: Well you can step on out now.

**
All I can think about regarding this snippet of the exchange is that let's pretend for a moment what would have occurred if SB actually did step out of her vehicle at that point - I wonder what BE planned to do then? Was he then going to answer her QUESTION? Seriously, what was his response going to be IF she had gotten out of her car after asking him what I consider a valid question? I don't think his plan was to answer her question (as to Why did she have to put out her cig since she was in her vehicle) as he could have done that without her exiting her vehicle.
Also, because it is clear IMO in how he is asking her to put out her cigarette that he kindly asking her to put it out. BE is not saying this is an lawful order. He asks her: "you mind putting out your cigarette please, if you don't mind?" That is not an order. I too would have asked why. Just because BE was politely asking her to put it out does not mean, IMO, that she has to simply comply and not ask questions. IMO, she asked him a simple question. She asked him because he is supposed to be the one with the answers. He is wearing the badge. He could have just explained to her why he is asking. Like I stated earlier IF he had given her an explanation as to why he is asking and treated her like her question mattered (therefore she mattered) we don't know - SB could have then just put it out. We don't know and will never know.

Seems to me his little bitty ego got hurt when she simply asked him a question. In this question she did not curse him. She did not call him names. She asked him a simple question and it is more than clear he did not like to be challenged. Since he is a rookie I suppose he has not yet grasped that the public will "challenge" you (if you call asking questions to a polite request "challenging") and ask you questions as to why this and that is happening or why do I have to do this or that.

Surely, he does not assume everyone he pulls over has to comply with whatever he says (even if he asked nicely) just because he has a badge. IMO, with this approach he is making his work life pretty stressful. BE is the one working that day, he is the one in charge in this situation, he is the one wielding the power therefore it is of my opinion it is his sole responsibility to be the professional one, to be the one to remain calm and in control, to communicate with the public in a respectful way by answering the questions they have especially when the questions are asked in a non-combative manner. The question(s) are being asked to the LEO because the public assumes they have an explanation as to why this or that is being requested. I also believe many people think it is not unreasonable to ask a LEO a reasonable question. IMO, it does NOT mean someone is provoking. Not even in the slightest. Really. I can't ask a question I truly want to know the answer to because I am seen as "provoking?" But BE, the LEO, can ignore my question and then order me out of the car for....??? for asking a question he didn't like ?? I personally would have lost it if I asked a LEO that same question and the LEO ignored it and ordered me to now exit my car. What?!?!? What is going on here?!? I can't ask a question in response to a request (not an order) without being treated in an aggressive manner. I will never understand how anyone thinks this is by any stretch of the imagination "OK." Had BE answered her as to why she needed to put the cig out this entire horrible situation could have gone much differently. Maybe if BE showed her an ounce of respect as a human being and answered her she would have complied and simply put the cig out.
Instead, he chose to be indifferent, aggressive and he chose to escalate an already tense exchange which is not IMO the best way to handle any traffic stop. After he ignored her and ordered her out of the vehicle for "asking a question :facepalm:" things THEN went down hill rapidly and I 1000% understand why SB was angry as she was and I would have been too. If I was ordered out of my car for asking a reasonable question and was told "I'll light you up" I cannot imagine what my reaction would have been but it would not have been good.


Again, I just wish I knew what BE's plan was when he FIRST said:
"Well, you can step out of the car now"
IF she had what was he going to then do?? Lecture her for not immediately responding to his polite request? Lecture her on the dangers of smoking :facepalm:? Lecture her for having the audacity to ask him a question when he is wearing a badge? What was his plan? We will never know. I wish SB would have simply stepped out to see what his plan was at that point. IMO, in his mind, he didn't like that she wasn't just shaking and scared and put out her cig because he is a big, bad police officer. I don't like to admit this but I'll be honest here. Because of situations like this, for years now, my attitude has totally changed when I am pulled over. I am no longer very friendly. I am not rude either. I just refuse to be a woman that has to put on this 'act' because of the big bad police. I don't want them to think that I am scared of them because I am not. If I did something to warrant a ticket then give me the ticket. I refuse to cry and beg for a warning or give a false excuse as to why I did x,y or z. I've only been pulled over for speeding over the past 20 years. When I am pulled over and I am asked "do you know why you're being pulled over?" I say "Probably because I was going too fast. Here is my license, registration and insurance card." I always have it ready to go. The LEO usually looks at me waiting for me to continue to explain why I was speeding. If they ask I'll answer. But if they're waiting on me to tremble and cry they'll be waiting forever. Go run my stuff. Make your decision. Warning or ticket. I'll take care of it and let's be on our way. I have not been treated badly by any LEO but I can speculate as to why and I believe there are many factors - one being the kind of car I drive.
Once when I was pulled over for speeding the LEO went into a conversation with me about how fast my car can go and specs on the engine, etc. My co-worker and good friend at the time was black and when we pulled away she was in serious disbelief of the traffic stop she had just experienced. She said she could not believe her ears. I could.
Rant Over.:shame:

BBM: Is that from Game of Thrones????

Anyway, don't even know where to start with all this! Anybody can ask all the questions they want of LE when pulled over. Who cares what the answer is? Be pleasant, comply and let you and the LE go your separate ways. She wasn't mentally stable or she wouldn't have killed herself. I can only imagine how crazy she must have seemed to the officer. It's not his problem though once it gets to the jail. But LE/jail personnel are supposed to judge her state of mind better than family?

 

[bluesneakers]

Just saw Anonymous' tweets on Bland and came over. I had already been having a very hard time with the story , much less after seeing the video of ' arrest'. The ' trash bag' has weighed on my mind from day one. The mugshot vs. orginal are very compelling.

Was the tweet a link to a video?

 

[BellaVita]

I am sorry but I am beside myself with surprise and sadness right now.
It is OKay to say 'because they do.'

So can cops say that because they saw one young black man pull a gun on them, that from that point on the cops can say "It is OKay to say 'because they do.' "

If you can do it, why can't the cops? Why can't they think the black driver from Chicago, who had prior DUI's might have drungs or guns in her car? YOU GUYS are doing the same type of thinking here and are defending it.

It seems very hypocritical to me. Branding all cops with the same brush and defending it like it is fine. But then accusing the cop of doing the same. What is the difference then?

If this cop has seen blacks committing lots of crime, is it OKAY for him to say ALL blacks are going to do that and it is OKAY for him to judge them all the same way? because that is what you all are doing yourselves to the cops.

Thank you katydid.

 

[cady]

No. You can tie a knot on the end with a loop, put it around your neck and pull the end thru the loop then tie that end to the bar.

LOL AGREE. But that isn't a sure-fire way to accomplish the mission, IMO. Do you know or does anyone know where she was found and how she connected the rope-bag? JMO TYIA

 

[katydid23]

(Respectfully BBM)



Great post Elisaa! All the behaviors by OBE that you pointed out above (BBM) are very likely indicative of a man who also has these very same issues (power and control = abuse) in his personal life, particularly in relationships with women.

I cannot understand why some people have such a difficult accepting that cops aren't gods; they're not ALWAYS right and they're not ALWAYS the good guys.
I do believe there are more decent, brave, professional, and ethical LEO's; However, one bad cop can destroy the trust and confidence of an entire community - especially when they are routinely protected by higher-ups and fellow officers (i.e., Code of Silence).

To deny that bad cops exist AND pose a public danger is to deny the reality of the very cases so many of us are aware of - even aside from the [alleged] police brutality cases - that involve LEO's who have committed and been convicted of horrific brutal acts of domestic violence, rape, and murder against those they often claim to love;
Just to name a very small portion of some of the more recent cases; Cops like...
Joshua Boren (Utah), Drew Peterson (Illinois), Chris Sheimek (California), Nick Pitofsky (Texas), David Brame (Washington), Phil Seidle (New Jersey), Ed Johnson (Illinois), Sherlon Smikle (New York), Glen Hochman (New York), Theodore Dyer (Michigan), Daniel Harmon-Wright (Virginia), Jackie Neal (Texas), Richmond Phillips (Washington D.C.), Jack McCullough (Illinois), Tom Fallis (Colorado), Mary O’Callaghan (California), William McCollum (Georgia), Jose R. Fogueroa (California), Wendel Palmer (Washington D.C.), Sean Marenkovic (Washington D.C.), Jeffrey Moreland (Missouri), Stephen Rozniakowski (Pennsylvania), William Mackenzie (Virginia), Rodney Jerome Wilson (Alabama), Gary Bucholtz (Michigan), Paul Terry (Florida), Andrew Hayslip (Georgia), Matthew Brokenshire (Pennsylvania), Philip Rinaldi (Arizona), David McGowan (California), Alexander Rojo (Illinois), Benjamin Hankins (Indiana), Brett Seacat (Kansas), Matthew Worthington (Ohio), Jonathan Agee (Virginia), Marvin Rice (Missouri), John Brasnahan (Massachusetts), William Dembie (Ohio), Craig Brewster Thompson (S. Carolina), Clarence Cash (New York), Virgil Millon (California), Jeffrey Grahn (Oregon), Deon Cartmell (Tennessee), Robert Przasnyski (N. Carolina), Mark Bomia (Florida), Christopher Reeder (Florida), Jason Lee Earls (Alabama), Kyle Brown (Indiana), Francis Cole (New York), Joseph Longo (New York), Brian Keith Ditmore (Oklahoma), Bruce Savoy (Maine)...

(hopefully OBE's will not be added to this list down the road...)

Is it then not impossible to imagine that this same officers could/would be inappropriate, aggressive, abusive, unprofessional, unethical, etc. on the job? Those who refuse to accept that LEO's are incapable of doing wrong indicates to me that their unquestioning and unwavering defense is rooted is something else altogether.

MO ~

"...Those who refuse to accept that LEO's are incapable of doing wrong indicates to me that their unquestioning and unwavering defense is rooted is something else altogether. "

Have you seen anyone here saying that^^^^?

 

[BellaVita]

Yeah, we will never know and that is crappy. Too bad BE couldn't just answer her question instead of ignoring her and ordering her out of the car. My point in this exchange is that IF he had done what is IMO the right thing and the professional thing and that was to answer her question as to why he is politely asking her to put out her cig while she is sitting in her own vehicle then the next events very well could have been avoided. If he would have said something like "yes, you're right you don't have to put it out I was kindly asking because ....." Then perhaps she would have felt respected and at least acknowledged and she could have put it out at that point.
My point is if he had simply provided her with an explanation and since she did not have to lawfully put it out it seems only reasonable to provide her with an answer.,..none of this would have happened.....that is what I'm upset about. It is HIS J-O-B IMO to de-escalate situations and it is HIS Job to do the right thing NOT hers. He is on the clock working a job that he has been trained to do. SB is NOT a LEO. She has NOT been trained to de-escalate sitautions with the police. IMO, BE has all the control and power here and he is the one who chose to treat her the way he did and therefore the events that folded afterwards are because of him. (Nope, I am not referring to her death. I won't even get into my thoughts on that here.)
We don't know what would have happened if BE would have answered a simple question to a polite request he made (not an order) and IMO because we will never know that is what makes me so angry..things could have gone a lot differently. Maybe Sandra wouldn't be dead today.

BBM: She killed herself. Nobody killed her. But then, I don't believe in conspiracies. At least not this one.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

:bump: and adding - politics and policies of other countries to the topics which are too broad for this case discussion. Stick to Sandra Bland, officer Brian Encina, the incident leading to Sandra Bland's arrest and her subsequent death in custody.

What about unsubstantiated (i.e. no links) claims of police misconduct not related to this case being posted on this thread?

In other words, can members claim personal knowledge about police misconduct and say that since they had a bad experience (or a friend) with police then all police act in the same way?

What about documented examples of police misconduct. Can that be used to say that all police act a certain way?

Thanks

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Look I'm not going to tit and tat with you on is or isn't she a hero, as I said she was no hero in that video!
Now who knows if she did something heroic another date and another time, if she did someone please post a link.
Until then IMO no hero.

She is a hero to her family and friends. No one has the right to take that away from them.

I watched the video again with my adult daughter (who btw, works for our state police debt), when Sandra said to BE, "Makes you feel good, don't it?" while he was wrestling with her off camera. We both smiled at each other, that knowing smile........ what she said was the truth!

JMO

 

[BritsKate]

BBM: Is that from Game of Thrones????

Anyway, don't even know where to start with all this! Anybody can ask all the questions they want of LE when pulled over. Who cares what the answer is? Be pleasant, comply and let you and the LE go your separate ways. She wasn't mentally stable or she wouldn't have killed herself. I can only imagine how crazy she must have seemed to the officer. It's not his problem though once it gets to the jail. But LE/jail personnel are supposed to judge her state of mind better than family?

SBBM

Yes because, unlike family and friends, jail and prison intake staff routinely receive specialized training in mental health. Perhaps for some mentally unstable people, being pleasant and complying just isn't as simple as a choice?

 

[pepelepolecat]

BBM: Is that from Game of Thrones????

Anyway, don't even know where to start with all this! Anybody can ask all the questions they want of LE when pulled over. Who cares what the answer is? Be pleasant, comply and let you and the LE go your separate ways. She wasn't mentally stable or she wouldn't have killed herself. I can only imagine how crazy she must have seemed to the officer. It's not his problem though once it gets to the jail. But LE/jail personnel are supposed to judge her state of mind better than family?

In some cases, a person's suicidal tendencies may be more obvious to strangers, yes. People who are suicidal often try to hide that from the people they love and trust most. That's why you so often hear people (as with this case) denying that it could possibly have been suicide. "They were so happy! I didn't know anything was wrong!" is a common refrain. Since there was an intake form where she was specifically asked, the medical personnel saw (or should have seen) that she had a history of depression and a history of suicide attempts. Someone dropped the ball, and it wasn't her family.

 

[SCHMAE]

Was the tweet a link to a video?

I saw a compliation of what all anonmessage has been tweeting the last few days. Not sure if it can be posted here but they've put together a compelling argument.

ETA, actually YES, probably available on their youtube channel?

 

[BellaVita]

Because they were all drug dealers fighting over a drug deal

I keep being told thru the media that drugs is a victimless crime. Wonder what the fight was about?

 

[bluesneakers]

I saw a compliation of what all anonmessage has been tweeting the last few days. Not sure if it can be posted here but they've put together a compelling argument.

ETA, actually YES, probably available on their youtube channel?

I think I found it. Thanks.

 

[bluesneakers]

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe they were tired of the ticket parade. And how is LE supposed to know that she is mentally unstable yet her family says she'd NEVER kill herself? But LE is supposed to figure out her mental state more accurately than family.

It was their responsibility, yes.

 

[KaaBoom]

OKAY. So if there is a case of one cop doing it, then ALL cops are added to the mix? So can I say ' Muslims behead people, Muslims pick on Christians so I hate them and they are all horrible people>?'

The bad apple argument is not valid. Because this is the way they are being trained in America. It's normal police culture in America. It's a barrow of bad apples, with maybe one or two that are not bad. When you see video of ten cops beating the hell out of a suspect, do you really believe that it is just coincidence that ten bad cops out of an army of good cops, just all come together at one place, at one time? Of course not they are all bad. They all went through the same training. If there are any good cops in the group, they are closing their eyes to what is going on around them.


Trooper Encinia wasn't one bad apple. Two of the three cops involved in this incident, were removed from duty. The third cop would have probably been too, but he got there too late. You can't solve this problem by removing individual bad apples from a barrow of bad apples. The police culture will have to change to solve this problem.

 

[Tricia]

Hi Everyone,

Mom here.

Remember out Terms of Service.

I know you do.

Tricia

 

[cady]

There were fabrications on the arrest warrant - even his superiors recognized that when they viewed the video.

MO ~

He wanted her to exit her car so that she could sign the ticket or warning and he could explain it to her....Many have weighed in on this earlier today. It is NOT necessary to exit your car to sign, or receive a verbal explanation about what you are signing. In my 68 years, and a few tickets, I have NEVER been ordered to exit my car. JMO. Of course, it is unpleasant, but no officer that I can recall was intimidating. If they had been, I know myself well enough to know that they would have gotten an earful. JMO

 

[SCHMAE]

Hi Everyone,

Mom here.

Remember out Terms of Service.

I know you do.

Tricia

:shame: I was trying to be delicate.

 

[katydid23]

I don't believe it is police culture. I think it is partially the intense stress that comes from the job, and the cynicism that comes from interacting with the dregs of our society on a continuos basis, day after day. Cops have a high divorce rate and a high suicide rate. That is what comes from the job. it is not from their training, it is from their daily work experiences, imo. They see and experience tragedy and hopelessness every day. Then they are supposed to compartmentalize it to protect their mental health. That only works for so long. Then the stress factor multiplies. And that is why cops are sympathetic when they see other cops lose their cool during a stop. Because they know it can happen to any of them and it does not mean they are 'bad'--IMO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BBM: Is that from Game of Thrones????

Anyway, don't even know where to start with all this! Anybody can ask all the questions they want of LE when pulled over. Who cares what the answer is? Be pleasant, comply and let you and the LE go your separate ways. She wasn't mentally stable or she wouldn't have killed herself. I can only imagine how crazy she must have seemed to the officer. It's not his problem though once it gets to the jail. But LE/jail personnel are supposed to judge her state of mind better than family?

That's a pretty mean thing to say, whether true or not, and imo, it was not true. And it's not BE's problem?! Whoa, where do I start, I can't.