TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[Elley Mae]

Average number of people per day that receive a speeding ticket 112,000

http://www.statisticbrain.com/driving-citation-statistics/

I wonder how many of these 112,000 people didn't think they did anything wrong and got irritated and then arrested? I didn't hear of any other arrest that went bad that day or any day since, could have missed it. jmo idk

 

[Night-owl]

She should have been arrested for her behavior, IMO. I'm glad they got her off the streets and out from behind the wheel of the car, before she hurt someone. I'm sorry her life was in chaos, and she handled that stress with an impulsive suicide. But I don't think the arresting officer is at fault.

She should have been embarrassed by her behavior. Both of them should be. That video of the traffic stop should be used by both the police AND civilian training groups as an example of what not to do.

That arrest shouldn't have happened. But it's not a rational response to kill yourself over it either.

There is a lot to what is in the news that doesn't add up. SB had that job offer? I've never had someone tell me I had a job while at the interview. No reference checks? No pre-employment physical or drug test? I would think her previous record could be a problem for a job working with college students. And a college graduate with no ability to scrape together $500 in an emergency? SH doesn't seem to have been up from with her family, if none of them knew about her epilepsy, and had to watch her one video postings to find out she was depressed. I think there is more here that is not flattering to Sandra Bland.

I'm sorry she felt killing herself was a good option. But there were demons in her life long before this, IMO.



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[reedus23]

Nevermind-Way behind

 

[reedus23]

Thank you, this was what I meant when I was pulled over and while looking for my registration I pulled out my cigs & he scolded me by saying it would stunt my growth & he was not as tall as me (5'7"), I could have said something, but I as the one about to get a ticket kept my mouth shut. I will never understand why some folks think it is ok to curse or talk down to a police officer, I just don't see how doing that is going to help them. Yet every time there is a bad cop story, this is what I see, someone that won't listen when a cop tells them what to do. They have an attitude the moment the cop arrives at the vehicle and them cry foul when they get a ticket for the offense they are accused of. idk jmo If you get caught doing something wrong... just own it, pay the fine and move on with life.

BBM - I'm not sure anyone would suggest that it is preferred behavior. But it's not against the law and many cops act like it is.

 

[reedus23]

She wasn't ordered out of the car because she failed to signal a lane change. It was her behavior and attitude, IMO, that was the reason she was ordered out of the car. In just a few seconds she chose to devolve into disrespect, vulgar language, and escalating uncooperativeness. The officer had to get her into a position where he would be safer-- in situations like that, officers have to anticipate that the person may try to pull a gun or weapon and harm them. She obviously had an enormous chip on her shoulder, was under the influence of drugs, and looking to pick a fight with the officer.

IMO, the officer may be somewhat in the wrong for some of his language and attitude, but SB clearly caused and escalated the entire traffic stop, and caused her own arrest. And the officer is absolutely in no way responsible for her suicide! Good grief, that is intensely offensive to read! I am deeply astonished and disgusted that anyone would try to blame her suicide 3 days later, on the arresting officer.

We have no idea all of the impact of dysfunctional emotional, mental health, and lifestyle issues that were going on in this woman's head and life that drove her to an impulsive suicide in her jail cell. It's sad and frustrating when any person commits suicide. Statistics show that roughly 280-310 people EVERY YEAR commit suicide while in county jail or state custody, and often with no warning signs. This is one of those sad statistics.

I just really don't begin to understand why she is being made by some into a posthumous hero for "standing up" (or IMO, mouthing off, argumentative, combative, and disrespectful) to a police officer at a routine traffic stop, and the officer vilified as if he was some kind of predatory monster. It's like Darren Wilson all over again. If any criticism is to be levied, let's look at her own behavior, and the jail where she spent 3 days-- not the traffic stop.

She should have been arrested for her behavior, IMO. I'm glad they got her off the streets and out from behind the wheel of the car, before she hurt someone. I'm sorry her life was in chaos, and she handled that stress with an impulsive suicide. But I don't think the arresting officer is at fault. Her behavior during that traffic stop was outrageous, escalating, dangerous to herself and others, IMO, and warranted arrest.

Still not a good enough reason. Safer? Please?!?! And you should be happy cops just can't arrest people for the words people say. What if a cop doesn't like your words? Bottom line...she was rude and impolite and failed to signal a lane change. He has no idea how to handle a position of authority and should be removed from it and take a job where he has no authority. Make him a meter maid or something with no arrest powers and no gun for certain.

 

[Confusion]

BBM - I'm not sure anyone would suggest that it is preferred behavior. But it's not against the law and many cops act like it is.

I wouldn't do it myself, but that doesn't mean someone can't do it if he/she chooses to. I personally believe in protecting all rights, not just those that affect me directly. At the same time, I sometimes have to remind myself that just because I can do something, it doesn't mean that I should! MOO

 

[Lilibet]

Imo, SB couldn't believe what was happening, and after I watched the video, neither could I.

SB knew her rights and said so in no uncertain terms. I love America for exactly that reason, you stand up for your rights. BE doesn't belong in the force, he chose to escalate a fairly routine situation into something bizarre! It was traumatizing just watching it, and I did many times just to grasp the enormity of it all. What would I do in that situation? All I can say, I won't take crap from no one.

I have a great respect for the police force, where would we be without them? But I've seen first hand the rotten apples that spoil all that is good about this noble profession. They must be weeded out or the system fails, and everyone loses. JMO

I agree that SB couldn't believe what was happening. And I agree that BE is not someone I want to encounter on a police force. It was bizarre. It was traumatizing. Of course rotten apples in LE need to go.

But the point I keep TRYING to make is that either one could have stopped it before or during the time it got physical. Yes, SB knew her rights and spoke up. But in those moments it's not about "standing up for your rights" and "I won't take crap" and "weeding out rotten apples." The pragmatic goal should be to bring the situation to a peaceful conclusion, even if it means being the one to de-escalate when you don't think it's your responsibility to do so and even if the officer wrong. You have know way of knowing if this is a rogue cop. Your personal safety is at stake. Standing up for your rights can happen in court. You can make a complaint about the officer later. "Taking (verbal) crap" for the sake of a peaceful outcome in that moment may be, and usually is, the wisest course IMO.

IMO Respectfully, one of the serious problems I see in society today is that many are so quick to turn a small insult into a huge issue because "they won't take crap from no one." People die by the hand of criminals and LE alike because they "won't take crap." I'd rather have a bruised ego than a bruised or dead body. I can take crap calmly and take care of the legalities later. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes all of that. But if she hadn't been arrested none of this would have happened. She wouldn't need the help of family or friends to rescue her.
I know some think she was where she needed to be but I don't see it that way at all.
I think BE over reached and made up a charge to suit his actions.
She had plenty of time to mull over her woes while sitting in jail and also her interactions with BE.
It got the best of her. IMO

But is is all on BE? What about her accountability? Maybe if she had not been self medicating with such frequency, and hot gotten help for her mental health issues, then three days in jail would not have made her suicidal. And maybe if she had been more calm and civil the situation would not have escalated. I think the officer was way out of line in the way he yelled and amped things up. But She had a role in this tragedy too. JMO

 

[kimlynn]

But is is all on BE? What about her accountability? Maybe if she had not been self medicating with such frequency, and hot gotten help for her mental health issues, then three days in jail would not have made her suicidal. And maybe if she had been more calm and civil the situation would not have escalated. I think the officer was way out of line in the way he yelled and amped things up. But She had a role in this tragedy too. JMO

IMO his job was routine.He obviously has conducted numerous traffic stops and has dealt with all kinds of situations and people. I don't think we can say how the average citizen or SB could or should react because we all come with our own life experiences.
By all accounts her life was going well and she was happy with where she was.
You have a person that has struggled in the past with suicidal thoughts and if you believe intake at one point acted on them.
I'm sure three days in jail didn't help with her issues and IMO was what sent her over the edge.
I do blame BE because IMO the charges were trumped up and she should have never been arrested. He knows that or it wouldn't have been such a struggle (audio from arrest) as to what to charge her with.

 

[kimlynn]

I agree that SB couldn't believe what was happening. And I agree that BE is not someone I want to encounter on a police force. It was bizarre. It was traumatizing. Of course rotten apples in LE need to go.

But the point I keep TRYING to make is that either one could have stopped it before or during the time it got physical. Yes, SB knew her rights and spoke up. But in those moments it's not about "standing up for your rights" and "I won't take crap" and "weeding out rotten apples." The pragmatic goal should be to bring the situation to a peaceful conclusion, even if it means being the one to de-escalate when you don't think it's your responsibility to do so and even if the officer wrong. You have know way of knowing if this is a rogue cop. Your personal safety is at stake. Standing up for your rights can happen in court. You can make a complaint about the officer later. "Taking (verbal) crap" for the sake of a peaceful outcome in that moment may be, and usually is, the wisest course IMO.

IMO Respectfully, one of the serious problems I see in society today is that many are so quick to turn a small insult into a huge issue because "they won't take crap from no one." People die by the hand of criminals and LE alike because they "won't take crap." I'd rather have a bruised ego than a bruised or dead body. I can take crap calmly and take care of the legalities later. JMO

BE said that SB wouldn't look at him during the stop. I bet she did when he asked her in a cold tone of voice if she was done and that she could exit her car.
Maybe what she saw frightened her.
I'm not so sure anything would have changed if she had meekly done what he had asked.
IMO the guy seemed unstable.

 

[reedus23]

I wouldn't do it myself, but that doesn't mean someone can't do it if he/she chooses to. I personally believe in protecting all rights, not just those that affect me directly. At the same time, I sometimes have to remind myself that just because I can do something, it doesn't mean that I should! MOO

I agree with you. The thing is, this case isn't about the moral police. It's about actual policing powers.

Put it this way. If that were my son and I saw him display attitude (because I don't even consider what she did as mouthing off), I would has his hide. At the same time, if I were the cop's parent (i.e. chief of police), I'd like to think that he'd demote him to a position where he has no arresting authority and can't make arrests.

 

[reedus23]

But is is all on BE? What about her accountability? Maybe if she had not been self medicating with such frequency, and hot gotten help for her mental health issues, then three days in jail would not have made her suicidal. And maybe if she had been more calm and civil the situation would not have escalated. I think the officer was way out of line in the way he yelled and amped things up. But She had a role in this tragedy too. JMO

Her role in this tragedy is the decision to take her own life. I am a firm believer that that decision was hers alone. Every thing before that falls on the officer. She has every right to smoke a cigarette if she's not under arrest. She has every right to express her disbelief about his actions. She absolutely has every right to exercise her constitutional rights. The fact that the officer didn't like being challenged only means he is not cut out to be an officer.

Said it before, I'll say it again. Fire 1/2 of the police force and double the pay of the ones you keep so you can attract better officers.

 

[reedus23]

BE said that SB wouldn't look at him during the stop. I bet she did when he asked her in a cold tone of voice if she was done and that she could exit her car.
Maybe what she saw frightened her.
I'm not so sure anything would have changed if she had meekly done what he had asked.
IMO the guy seemed unstable.

I don't know how anyone can believe a single word that comes out of his mouth.

This is a scary proposition that I see many people stating in one form or another. There should be absolutely no reason to back down when one is violating your constitutional rights. If we begin meekly acquiescing when our rights are being violated it will only lead to more egregious violation of rights. Once society begins accepting it, like a good number already have, it is hard to correct.

 

[Confusion]

I agree with you. The thing is, this case isn't about the moral police. It's about actual policing powers.

Put it this way. If that were my son and I saw him display attitude (because I don't even consider what she did as mouthing off), I would has his hide. At the same time, if I were the cop's parent (i.e. chief of police), I'd like to think that he'd demote him to a position where he has no arresting authority and can't make arrests.

When I still smoked, I did get stopped a couple times, and I always put out my cigarette before they even got out of their cars. I also was raised to always be respectful to authority figures, even though I didn't always do as i was told. On the other hand (I'm going to run out of hands soon!), I have also had quite a lot of assertiveness training over the years, and I'm not sure I could handle having him making unreasonable requests or demands (which several of his were) without pointing out the error of his ways. I'm not a fighter or screamer, but I still could have possibly ended up her cell mate. :blushing:

MOO

 

[CARIIS]

IMO his job was routine.He obviously has conducted numerous traffic stops and has dealt with all kinds of situations and people. I don't think we can say how the average citizen or SB could or should react because we all come with our own life experiences.
By all accounts her life was going well and she was happy with where she was.
You have a person that has struggled in the past with suicidal thoughts and if you believe intake at one point acted on them.
I'm sure three days in jail didn't help with her issues and IMO was what sent her over the edge.
I do blame BE because IMO the charges were trumped up and she should have never been arrested. He knows that or it wouldn't have been such a struggle (audio from arrest) as to what to charge her with.

and..........what was so compelling to me appartently he called his boss - I thought what they call there boss everytime they arrest someone - I think after he lost it, after a bit he realized he might be in a heap of trouble. '

Him yelling at the person recording is also not legal.............................

 

[Night-owl]

Still not a good enough reason. Safer? Please?!?! And you should be happy cops just can't arrest people for the words people say. What if a cop doesn't like your words? Bottom line...she was rude and impolite and failed to signal a lane change. He has no idea how to handle a position of authority and should be removed from it and take a job where he has no authority. Make him a meter maid or something with no arrest powers and no gun for certain.

Let's not pretend the police won't arrest you for words or behavior. Police absolutely can and will. Some cases may be more grey than others. But you don't say and do anything with impunity with a cop.

I don't think anything SB did before she exited the car rose to the level of properly being arrested. People question why she behaved the way she did. Was she in a crisis already? Was she just a person who felt she can behave anyway she wants and no one can say differently? Was she passionately standing up for her rights and engaging in civil disobedience? Or just having a rotten day?

In the end, it doesn't matter. There was a perfect bad storm that she fell into. Multiple people could have done something differently and changed the outcome. With the benefit of hindsight, people would have done things differently. But they didn't, and that was the outcome.

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[CARIIS]

Imo, SB couldn't believe what was happening, and after I watched the video, neither could I.

SB knew her rights and said so in no uncertain terms. I love America for exactly that reason, you stand up for your rights. BE doesn't belong in the force, he chose to escalate a fairly routine situation into something bizarre! It was traumatizing just watching it, and I did many times just to grasp the enormity of it all. What would I do in that situation? All I can say, I won't take crap from no one.

I have a great respect for the police force, where would we be without them? But I've seen first hand the rotten apples that spoil all that is good about this noble profession. They must be weeded out or the system fails, and everyone loses. JMO

The first couple of times I saw it it really upset me. He is suppossed to the pro - he should know and use deescalating techniques - they work ! He was totally out of control , " I am gonna light you up"--nausating

I have epilepsy "good" - that is just not ok behavior for a hypothetical pro - I hope he is never running around with a gun or a car with blue lights on it, or handcuffs -- he is scary , patholgoical power and control freak

like much we have all observed in the last 9 months, all over the country, the mumber of rotten apples is out of control --the stuff the last 9 months are folks from all departments all over the country - the only conclusion one can come to is cell phones are bringing a very serious issue to the forefront

I also pondered if a lot of cops dont watch much news - after Ferguson and Trevon, and the almost nightly new video taped hideous behaovr from LE - I began to conclude how on earth can you folks not know , that the days of abusing your power, lying on your reports, falsely arresting people are over

and........................much of the populace-- watching video after video of this nonsense certainly does not make me feel inclined to just gernerally respect them----

 

[KateB]

Bland Arrest, Death Prompt Legislative Hearing
http://www.texastribune.org/2015/07/28/coleman-calls-hearing-texas-jail-standards/

Following the controversial arrest and death of Sandra Bland in Waller County, a Houston lawmaker will convene a Texas House committee hearing Thursday to look at trooper arrest procedures and state jail standards.

"This isn't to beat up on somebody," said state Rep. Garnet Coleman, chairman of the Texas House Committee on County Affairs. "We want to solve problems."

In the video, Encinia is shown losing his temper with Bland who refused to comply with his orders to get out of the vehicle and put out her cigarette. Encinia is seen on the video threatening to "light her up" with a Taser and then arresting her for attacking him, a public servant. Three days later she was found hanged in her cell with a trash can liner. The death, ruled a suicide by the Harris County medical examiner, will be presented to grand jury next month.

More at link and the names of those expected to testify to the TX House committee.

 

[CARIIS]

RE I'm not convinced at this point in time that this jail did anything overtly, or by negligence, that makes them responsible for SB's suicide. JMO.

Cant get the color off!!


overt i agree but negligence- I think so .....


THey are legally responsible for her safety. Especially since on one report she described a previous attempt. To keep someone in their alone , for three days, obviously unspervised is gonna come back on them legally and it should. They are repsonsible for the welfare for anyone in their custudy IMO

guards violated policies by failing to do timely checks on inmates," which should be hourly.

staff had not all undergone the minimum of two hours of mental health training required by the state.[SUP][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland#cite_note-nytimes7252015-43"][43]

[/SUP]One questionnaire states that Bland took pills in 2015 after having a miscarriage. Another form filed by a different jail employee says Bland instead attempted suicide earlier, in 2014. One form indicates Bland had contemplated suicide within the past year, while another says she did not.[SUP][25]

[/SUP]male prisoner hanged himself with a bedsheet in 2012, Texas state inspectors also cited procedural failings by Waller County Jail's staff.

[jail staff may face disciplinary actions for their failures of not putting Bland on a suicide watch, not personally checking on her, and leaving the plastic bag that was fashioned into a noose. The actions “could range from suspensions to transfers to terminations,” he told The New York Times.[/URL]



[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland
[/URL]

 

[Night-owl]

RE I'm not convinced at this point in time that this jail did anything overtly, or by negligence, that makes them responsible for SB's suicide. JMO.


overt i agree but negligence- I think so .....


THey are legally responsible for her safety. Especially since on one report she described a previous attempt. To keep someone in their alone , for three days, obviously unspervised is gonna come back on them legally and it should. They are repsonsible for the welfare for anyone in their custudy IMO

this may be posted earlier here some more video

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/28/sandra-bland-waller-county-texas-jail-vdeo/30801271/

Just for the sake of discussion, what responsibility (if any) does a person in jail have for their own well being?

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