TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #3

[Night-owl]

1st BBM

I haven't seen anyone express that on this forum either because it would be just be too ridiculous.


2nd BBM

BE was on duty. BE was being paid to do his job at that traffic stop. BE was the trained LEO. He went through training as to how to handle all aspects of traffic stops. BE was trained to NOT escalate situations. He was trained to de-escalate situations. I don't care how many times Sandra Bland was stopped prior or how many violations she received. I don't care how many outstanding fines she had. Sandra Bland was not professionally trained in the do's and don'ts of a traffic stop. Therefore, IMO, it was BE's job to be the smart one and the one to maintain control of the situation. It was his job and only his job. I find it perplexing that one would hold Sandra Bland to a higher standard to be the "smart one" or the one to remain "in control" or even to hold her equally. BE is the LEO which means he is supposed to be the one who knows what to do in situations and what not to do. MOO.

In response to your post in general:

Right. I agree, if I responded that way to my supervisor I'd likely be fired too. But that is not how Sandra Bland responded when BE politely asked her "you mind putting out your cigarette please?"

She did not tell him that she was going to call an attorney. She did not say anything about her rights.

She asked him one question which was:

"Why do I have to put out my cigarette since I'm in my own car?"

Using your same example ...if my supervisor politely asked me to do something and I asked him a question regarding as to why do I need to do x, y or z - I would be in shock if he then fired me. I'm absolutely sure he would simply explain to me why he is asking and why I should do it. I'm confident in saying that any supervisor I've ever had would have no problem with me asking them a question. I was always taught from a young age "there is no such thing as a dumb question."

I'm a very detailed person. So, when I post about the exchanges between BE and Sandra Bland I literally follow exactly what was said and when. When he asks her to please put out her cigarette that is not when she brings up contacting an attorney. The ONLY thing she says after he asks her to put out her cigarette is the question as to why. She brings up contacting an attorney after BE orders her to exit her vehicle. When he tells her to get out of her car that is when she says something to the effect of "you can't do that. " But, again all of that was done AFTER he says "Well, you can get out of the car.."

** The above is my opinion only. Your may vary. I respect all opinions and views just the same. "

We may just have to say we have different perceptions here. Which is fine, it's not cut and dry like we're calculating the number of hours in a month.

I disagree that SB was just enquiring as to why she should put out her cigarette. From the moment where she is telling BE what his job is, she's itching for a fight. Had he come back with "it's the law", "it's polite", "smoke gives me asthma"... ANYTHING, IMO, SB's response would have been " Well I don't have to." To me, she sounds like the worst kind of teenager, pushing limits. "You can't make me." Not the way to deal with people.

Law enforcement officers are supposed to be trained to deal with this. BE somehow managed to not follow that training. They both were acting badly.

At its core, it's an asymmetrical interaction. BE can arrest SB. SB can't arrest BE. All throughout though, SB seems to behave as if this is no different than someone cutting her off in line at the market. If you're smart, you go into that kind of situation much differently.

You don't have the right to call a lawyer in the middle of a traffic stop. Hello, your attention is needed with the situation at hand. So what should someone read into this if not, "I don't need to listen to you, my lawyer will back me up."

Bottom line, I don't admire SB. I don't see her as some kind of civil rights activist. Do I think she deserves to be dead? Of couse not. She didn't deserve to run into a sour tempered cop either. Things should have been done differently on both sides.

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[JeannaT]

Bottom line, I don't admire SB. I don't see her as some kind of civil rights activist. Do I think she deserves to be dead? Of couse not. She didn't deserve to run into a sour tempered cop either. Things should have been done differently on both sides.

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Respectfully snipped.

The fact that her family ignored her calls to bail her out her is telling. It seems she had pretty much burned her bridges with everyone of them, too, and had an extremely difficult personality. Sad, no one wants it to end in suicide, but she can't be held blameless here. I'm not sure I understand her sister's anger at the cops when they themselves wouldn't even take her calls from jail.

 

[bluesneakers]

No, I'm not young. I guess every body has their own experiences with cops then and now, and my experiences then was that you could get the daylights beaten out of you for nothing. It does seem true that there have been a lot of shootings of citizens by police in the news recently, but almost all of them have been doing things I can't believe they'd have the brass to do. Grabbing a cop's gun, dragging a cop who was half in their vehicle, pulling a gun on a cop, etc. It's true that there are some innocent people who have been shot, but not that many. Usually they're in an altercation. With a cop. Which used to be called "suicide by cop".

Maybe it's just because I spent time in small towns, but you avoided cops when I was a young adult. Look at your shoes, and keep moving. At Gruene Hall (oldest dance hall in Texas) cops hung out there at closing time looking for young men to brutalize. Same thing with BoHickey's in south east Texas. You walk out of there and look a little defenseless and you'll get your face smashed in by cops. I certainly remember WELL Rodney King, and the only reason it made news is because there was video. This kind of stuff happened ALL THE TIME off camera. I remember well the Abner Louima case, in NYC, where a compliant Black man had his bowels removed with a broom handle while everyone in the station looked the other way to his panicked screams. And when his brother came in to file a complaint, he was dismissed and threatened. It wasn't until the media got involved, that anyone cared.

I remember this stuff. I certainly don't see anything AT ALL like this happening now. There are shootings, but when you rewind what happened, it's not much of a surprise that the suspect gets shot. Of course, there were great cops, before, and bad ones, and there still are great ones and bad ones. It was just accepted - from what I saw - for cops to brutalize suspects just for the shear pleasure of it.

That's what I'm seeing happen now.

You can explain away some of the shootings as an altercation started by the victim, or "suicide by cop" but there are far too many that can't logically be explained away. But, lucky for us, there are people in America who can explain how it's okay for an officer to shoot a 12yo boy with a toy gun, physically restrain and kill a woman they were supposed to be assisting, kill a man who was shopping and carrying a toy gun (not as a weapon, just something he was going to purchase), shoot and kill a woman who was asleep (asleep!) on her couch, throw a grenade into a baby's crib... there are many more examples people attempt to justify away.

You said "It's true that there are some innocent people who have been shot, but not that many." How many innocent people is too many?

I believe what happened to Sandra is part of a much larger picture.

 

[Montjoy]

It was just accepted - from what I saw - for cops to brutalize suspects just for the shear pleasure of it.

rsbm

I don't think that there's any reason to think that police are kinder and gentler now. This is perhaps not physical violence, but it does show mean-spirited contempt for the public, especially those down on their luck:

[video=youtube;L9TtuHqTdpw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9TtuHqTdpw[/video]

 

[JeannaT]

rsbm

I don't think that there's any reason to think that police are kinder and gentler now. This is perhaps not physical violence, but it does show mean-spirited contempt for the public, especially those down on their luck:

[video=youtube;L9TtuHqTdpw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9TtuHqTdpw[/video]

Well, that's nothing at all like when I've seen cops slamming young men's faces on the hoods of cars. To me, that looks like a game. Like a diversion. The homeless guy seems as engaged in it as the cop. There's a Japanese restaurant where they (as part of the act) throw food into the mouths of patrons and it looks about like that to me, honestly. This is no where in the league of cops brutalizing people, IMHO. It's not very professional looking, but it almost looks like something brothers would do with each other for fun.

 

[JeannaT]

That's what I'm seeing happen now.

You can explain away some of the shootings as an altercation started by the victim, or "suicide by cop" but there are far too many that can't logically be explained away. But, lucky for us, there are people in America who can explain how it's okay for an officer to shoot a 12yo boy with a toy gun, physically restrain and kill a woman they were supposed to be assisting, kill a man who was shopping and carrying a toy gun (not as a weapon, just something he was going to purchase), shoot and kill a woman who was asleep (asleep!) on her couch, throw a grenade into a baby's crib... there are many more examples people attempt to justify away.

You said "It's true that there are some innocent people who have been shot, but not that many." How many innocent people is too many?

I believe what happened to Sandra is part of a much larger picture.

Well, I think we could do "verbal volleyball" with you mentioning recent experiences with police brutality, and me bringing up old experiences with police brutality.

When someone is carrying a toy gun, all bets are off IMHO. Unless the toy is OBVIOUSLY a toy (bright orange plastic, for example) then mistakes just happen. If you appear to be carrying a real gun, I'm sorry for what happens to you if you encounter a cop. I'm sorry.

There was a case here, in 1985 (I believe) referred to now as "the Cedar Street Incident". Cops got an address wrong, believed they were bursting into a drug house, but instead arrived at the house of grandma and grandpa hosting a Valentines Day party for their teenage granddaughter. The cops bounced grandma off the ground for asking for a warrant, and proceeded to brutalize everyone in the home, terrorizing the little 14 year old girls in their valentines dresses. Yowzer. At least in Austin, that doesn't happen anymore. No one tosses Grandma to the ground at a child's valentine's party anymore, thank goodness.

Things have gotten much, much better from where I sit. Yes, you can find isolated cases here and there were mistakes and accidents happen. That's the nature to responding to crime. But there is no longer an atmosphere that cops can just punch you until you're unconscious because it seems like something they feel like doing.

But anyway, I guess everyone has their own viewpoints and experiences. In my youth, I actually once ran from the cops in my car because I wasn't going to deal with them at 2 a.m. all alone. I did manage to shake the cop, I don't have any idea why he was trying to stop me as I didn't have any violations on my car and wasn't speeding or doing anything illegal. I wouldn't do that now. But at the time, around 1980, I was on a rural road and no one was around for miles, and I wasn't about to pull over.

 

[arkansasmimi]

She did not ask for a lawer. She willfully disobeyed a legal order to step out of the car. LINK regarding the legality of his making this request upthread. Then she told, not asked, the officer she was calling her lawer. Which I suspect was bs as she likly didn't have a tx lawyer since she had just arrived the day before.Her IL lawyer, if she had one and did not use a public defender, would not be licensed in TX.

I am curious as to when she got her TX DL and TX ID that she had. And why she still had her IL DL. I know in AR, they confiscate your old lic when you transfer from another state. Wouldn't having a TX DL and TX ID make her a Texas Resident at time of traffic stop?

 

[arkansasmimi]

How did she smuggle it into jail?

I personally think she ate it at the traffic stop while he was running her lic or possibly as she was being pulled over. Something was off.. JMHO

 

[human]

Well, I think we could do "verbal volleyball" with you mentioning recent experiences with police brutality, and me bringing up old experiences with police brutality.

When someone is carrying a toy gun, all bets are off IMHO. Unless the toy is OBVIOUSLY a toy (bright orange plastic, for example) then mistakes just happen. If you appear to be carrying a real gun, I'm sorry for what happens to you if you encounter a cop. I'm sorry.

There was a case here, in 1985 (I believe) referred to now as "the Cedar Street Incident". Cops got an address wrong, believed they were bursting into a drug house, but instead arrived at the house of grandma and grandpa hosting a Valentines Day party for their teenage granddaughter. The cops bounced grandma off the ground for asking for a warrant, and proceeded to brutalize everyone in the home, terrorizing the little 14 year old girls in their valentines dresses. Yowzer. At least in Austin, that doesn't happen anymore. No one tosses Grandma to the ground at a child's valentine's party anymore, thank goodness.

Things have gotten much, much better from where I sit. Yes, you can find isolated cases here and there were mistakes and accidents happen. That's the nature to responding to crime. But there is no longer an atmosphere that cops can just punch you until you're unconscious because it seems like something they feel like doing.

But anyway, I guess everyone has their own viewpoints and experiences. In my youth, I actually once ran from the cops in my car because I wasn't going to deal with them at 2 a.m. all alone. I did manage to shake the cop, I don't have any idea why he was trying to stop me as I didn't have any violations on my car and wasn't speeding or doing anything illegal. I wouldn't do that now. But at the time, around 1980, I was on a rural road and no one was around for miles, and I wasn't about to pull over.

You decided that you would not stop on a rural road. Me either. You made that decision. Legal? Probably not.

Sandra made her decision. We all make decisions based on our reasons. We decide our reasons are good.

 

[arkansasmimi]

She could call a lawyer in Illinois who could at least give her some advice, or give her the name of an attorney to call in Texas. Whether or not an attorney in IL could represent her in TX has nothing to do with whether or not she could make the call. Yes, she'd just arrived in Texas but already had a job and had lived there before (she went to college there), and as an]activist she's been in touch with many people around the country, including attorneys. Are you sure she didn't know any lawyers in Texas?

Respectfully BBM, since you brought that up, kinda odd that none of those activist people she been in touch bailed her out isnt it. Looks like from stuff I have read, she also didn't understand the info she was told, at least pertaining to her traffic stop. JMHO, And I wouldn't doubt she had public defenders with her cases in Texas.

 

[JeannaT]

You decided that you would not stop on a rural road. Me either. You made that decision. Legal? Probably not.

Sandra made her decision. We all make decisions based on our reasons. We decide our reasons are good.

Well. My choice was in the wee hours, in the dark, in the 1980's. I most certainly would have stopped for that cop Sandra stopped for. And I would have left there with a warning. On my way, none the worse for wear.

 

[bluesneakers]

Respectfully BBM, since you brought that up, kinda odd that none of those activist people she been in touch bailed her out isnt it. Looks like from stuff I have read, she also didn't understand the info she was told, at least pertaining to her traffic stop. JMHO, And I wouldn't doubt she had public defenders with her cases in Texas.

Cool story.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Ha ha. The officer hasn't been charged with anything. You must be thinking of a different case regarding an officer spending his life in prison.

:laughcry: I agree. And technically, if its the new one in the news, he has only been arrested, not yet been to court let alone convicted. (*disclaimer, I only have seen a small soundbite so I don't know anything about it other than cop shot guy at traffic stop. So I won't comment)

 

[bluesneakers]

Well, I think we could do "verbal volleyball" with you mentioning recent experiences with police brutality, and me bringing up old experiences with police brutality.

When someone is carrying a toy gun, all bets are off IMHO. Unless the toy is OBVIOUSLY a toy (bright orange plastic, for example) then mistakes just happen. If you appear to be carrying a real gun, I'm sorry for what happens to you if you encounter a cop. I'm sorry.

There was a case here, in 1985 (I believe) referred to now as "the Cedar Street Incident". Cops got an address wrong, believed they were bursting into a drug house, but instead arrived at the house of grandma and grandpa hosting a Valentines Day party for their teenage granddaughter. The cops bounced grandma off the ground for asking for a warrant, and proceeded to brutalize everyone in the home, terrorizing the little 14 year old girls in their valentines dresses. Yowzer. At least in Austin, that doesn't happen anymore. No one tosses Grandma to the ground at a child's valentine's party anymore, thank goodness.

Things have gotten much, much better from where I sit. Yes, you can find isolated cases here and there were mistakes and accidents happen. That's the nature to responding to crime. But there is no longer an atmosphere that cops can just punch you until you're unconscious because it seems like something they feel like doing.

But anyway, I guess everyone has their own viewpoints and experiences. In my youth, I actually once ran from the cops in my car because I wasn't going to deal with them at 2 a.m. all alone. I did manage to shake the cop, I don't have any idea why he was trying to stop me as I didn't have any violations on my car and wasn't speeding or doing anything illegal. I wouldn't do that now. But at the time, around 1980, I was on a rural road and no one was around for miles, and I wasn't about to pull over.

So, in your opinion, how many innocent people being killed is acceptable?

And, in your opinion, if you want to buy a toy gun at WalMart should you call the clerk over to pick it up and carry it to the register for you?

 

[JeannaT]

Would this story have ANY legs at all, had she not killed herself after no one in her family responded to her calls to get her out of jail?

I think no. No, this wouldn't be a story if she hadn't tragically committed suicide, after attempting it before. And her family abandoning her.

 

[human]

Well. My choice was in the wee hours, in the dark, in the 1980's. I most certainly would have stopped for that cop Sandra stopped for. And I would have left there with a warning. On my way, none the worse for wear.

Just saying how an illegal choice is made.

 

[kimlynn]

Respectfully, the conversation with whomever he was speaking with after the arrest, had no bearing on the situation as it was going on. JMHO...

Here is my transcript, I may be off a sec or 2 on a few, as it hard to stop it and restart some points. but I do feel comfortable but if I did make a mistake I will continue to be open minded and re listen.

840 Trooper arrives at driver side window..
840 Trooper: Okay,Ma'am
846 Trooper: are you okay?
847 SB: I'm waiting on you. This is your job. I'm waiting on you. When are you going to let me go?
851 Trooper: you seem very irritated
854 SB: I am. I really am. I feel like it's crap what I'm getting a ticket for. I was getting out of your way. You were speeding up, tailing me, so I move over and you stop me. So yeah, I am a little irritated, but that doesn’t stop you from giving me a ticket, so
908 Trooper: are you done?
9011 SB: You asked me whats up, so I told you.
912 Trooper: okay
913 SB: so yeah I done
917-920 Trooper: ok you mind putting out your cig, please, if you dont mind
923 SB: I'm in my car, why do I have to put, put my cig out?
925/926 Trooper: well you can step on out now
927 SB: I don't have to step out
929 Trooper: Step out of the car *lays his clip board on hood
932 *Trooper opens door
933 Trooper: step out of the car
934 SB: No you don't have the right
935 Trooper: Step out of the car
936 SB: You do not have the right to do
937/939 Trooper: I do have the right, now step out or I will remove you
940/941 SB: I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself
943/944 Trooper: step out or I will remove you
945 SB: I am getting removed for a failure to
947/948 Trooper: Step out or I will remove you
949/950 Trooper: I am giving you a Lawful Order
951/952 Trooper: Get out of the car ~NOW~ or I am going to remove you
955 SB: And I am calling my lawyer... **Can see SB head move over to the right
956 Trooper: I am gonna yank you outta here **starts reaching in
957 SB: Okay your gonna yank me outta my car okay **Trooper starts moving back out of car
958 Trooper: Get out
959: SB: Okay, alright let's do this
10:00 Trooper: 2547 ** calling dispatch
1001 SB: alright let's do this
1001 Trooper yeah your going to
1002 yeah
1003 ** Trooper backs out, unsure if he is trying to pull on her as cant see,
1004 SB: Don't touch me
1005 Trooper: Get out of the car * appears to be trying to get her out of the car little movement
1007/1008 SB: Don't touch me - I'm not under arrest- you don't have the right to take..
1009 Trooper: You are.. under arrest
1010 SB: I'm under arrest for what?
1012 Trooper: 2547
1012 SB: For what?
1013 Trooper: FM 1098
1014 Trooper: Send me another unit
1015/1016 Trooper: Get out of the car
1017 Dispatch: need another unit 2457
1019 Trooper Get out of the car - NOW
1020/1021 SB Why am i being apprehended? - you trying to give me a ticket for failure
1022 Trooper: NOW
1023 Trooper: I said GET OUT OF THE CAR
1024 S: Why am I being apprehended?
1025 Trooper: I am giving you a Lawful Order
1026 SB: you just open my car door...
1027 Trooper: I'm gonna drag you...
1028 SB: SO your gonna drag me outta my own car
1029 SB So your threatening drag me outta my own car **Trooper backs out
1030 Trooper gets taser and points
1031 Trooper Get out of the car!
1032 SB: And then you gonna light me
1033 Trooper: I Will LIGHT YOU UP- GET OUT
1034 SB WOW
1035 Trooper: NOW **Trooper backs up
1036 SB Wow * starts exiting
1037 Trooper: Get out of car ** SB gets out holding up phone appears to be filming
1038/1039 SB: All this for failure to signal you.. your doing all of this for failure to signal
1040 Trooper: get over there
1041 SB: Right - yeah
1042 SB: Yeah- let's take this to court.. let's
1043 Trooper: go ahead
1044 *last of trooper body out of frame, SB ahead of him
1045 SB: for a failure to signal - yep for a failure to signal
1046 Trooper Get off the phone
1047 SB *sound like from* .. my school
1048 Trooper: get off the phone
1049 SB: I not on the phone-I have a right to record you with my property
1050: Trooper put your phone down
1051 SB: Sir?
1054: Trooper : Put your phone down
1055: Trooper: right now
1056 Trooper: put your phone down
1059/1100 **you see SB slam her phone onto the back of her car.

I didn't go back and watch the whole video but SB said (I think) you're going to stun me versus you gonna light me. Good job on getting as much as you did.
I felt the conversation with his Sgt to be important as it showed how BE gave a different reality than what really happened during the traffic stop. IMO

 

[JeannaT]

Just saying how an illegal choice is made.

well, as luck would have it, I don't think anyone could prove what I did was illegal. I was driving one way on a very dark road, the cop passed me driving the other way, and our eyes met. As I looked in the rearview mirror, I saw his brakelights come on as he crested a hill. At that moment, I was lucky enough to find a dirt road to the right and quickly drove down it and behind an abandoned house. I was behind the abandoned house, car off and lights off, when he recrested the hill with his lights flashing. I watched for the next hour as he drove up and down the road looking for me (or probably actually just patrolling for new drivers to harass).

My whole point is, I don't run from cops now. I don't have to, and I tell my kids to never do that. It's not the 80's anymore, in tiny rural towns where God help you.

I'm sorry for what happened to Sandra, but no one killed her. He took her to jail for noncompliance, and her family abandoned her there, and now she committed suicide. Not really a cop's fault.

 

[Night-owl]

Respectfully BBM, since you brought that up, kinda odd that none of those activist people she been in touch bailed her out isnt it. Looks like from stuff I have read, she also didn't understand the info she was told, at least pertaining to her traffic stop. JMHO, And I wouldn't doubt she had public defenders with her cases in Texas.

Unless you and your best bud, the criminal defense attorney, are already very tight, I think you start with a public defender. They are right there and the system will assign one to you. Even if Sandra knew an attorney in Texas, it would take time and $$$ before transfering her case over (unless someone takes you pro bono). Neither of which she had.

Obviously I don't know what she was thinking. I believe she was heartbroken that no one rallied to her aid with bail money and just plain support.



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[human]

well, as luck would have it, I don't think anyone could prove what I did was illegal. I was driving one way on a very dark road, the cop passed me driving the other way, and our eyes met. As I looked in the rearview mirror, I saw his brakelights come on as he crested a hill. At that moment, I was lucky enough to find a dirt road to the right and quickly drove down it and behind an abandoned house. I was behind the abandoned house, car off and lights off, when he recrested the hill with his lights flashing. I watched for the next hour as he drove up and down the road looking for me (or probably actually just patrolling for new drivers to harass).

My whole point is, I don't run from cops now. I don't have to, and I tell my kids to never do that. It's not the 80's anymore, in tiny rural towns where God help you.

I'm sorry for what happened to Sandra, but no one killed her. He took her to jail for noncompliance, and her family abandoned her there, and now she committed suicide. Not really a cop's fault.

The issue is the choices she made when stopped.

Why is it OK for others to do things that are not right, but she is horrible for what exactly? Not accepting being pulled out of her car and having her head slammed on the ground? Silly woman. Sounds like a good time to me