UK - 22 dead in explosion at Ariana Grande gig, Manchester, 22 May 2017 #1

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #821
Wow, dotr-- that is very illuminating. Thanks for that link.

So, the issue is not "we" who "must get used to" terrorist attacks.

The far more pressing issue is WHAT do we as a society "DO" when there are clear signs that radicalization is occurring? What do we do to come to some agreement in civilized western societies to intervene before a suicide bomber attacks a concert full of teenagers? Both at the citizen level, and the LE/ security level? HOW do we persuade citizens and politicians and leaders that we CAN intervene and prevent this mayhem?? How do we stamp out the caustic cancer of political correctness that allows this carnage to flourish?

Chicken or egg?

We CAN prevent these attacks, IMO, but we must be brave enough to talk very openly about WHO radicalizes, and WHY radicalization occurs. Every single citizen has to be part of the "fix".

I'm tired of just wringing my hands and grieving for the dead and their families.

I'm really, really, really tired of reading after the fact of an attack that gazillions of people "knew" something was wrong, but nothing made a difference.

We need effective strategies to treat radicalization like a deadly communicable disease, IMO.

I'm so very tired of the carnage. But I'm even more tired of people saying that *nothing* can be done to stop it. I reject that.

Agreed. If someone has "clear ties" to a terror network, how come nothing can be done to stop such a person? Why the hell wouldn't they be on a no fly list? There should be measure that law enforcement and government can take to stop such a person. Communication with a terror group should be illegal, except in certain circumstances.

As far as other things that can be done, I think two things can be done at the community level:

One - we have to combat and speak out against racism and xenophobia. ISIS and groups like them love it when nations and people respond to such atrocities with suspicion and rage against entire groups of people, and with oppressive policies meant to ostracize whole groups based on the lunatic actions of a fringe few. Such attitudes and policies push alienated loners into fanaticism. It makes it easy for radicalism to lure them in, by creating an "us against them" mentality and giving these impotent losers a chance at feeling "power" no matter how despicable and fleeting that "power" might be, and it gives them vent for their petty little desires for revenge on a society they feel has rejected them. Note that many of these creeps are oddballs who are unable to maintain intimate or romantic relationships and are thus filled with rage, or who are socially inept and never able to fully integrate into any society. The lure of violent "warriors" who embrace them fully and appeal to their sense of "honor" and their fragile egos, is all the more great when the community promotes attitudes and laws meant to punish them not for their evil but for their nationality, religion, skin color or ethnic heritage, etc. So I firmly believe that in order to reduce the numbers of lunatics who embrace the insanity and evil of terror groups, we have to shower each other with love, acceptance and belonging. We have to show support to one another, talk with our neighbors, reach out to people who may be struggling or alone, stand up against bullying and bigotry. (This could help with mass shooter type situations as well).

Two - the religious Muslim community needs to develop a smarter attitude about this issue and communicate and educate themselves about what constitutes a red flag. For every religious community except the Amish, when a young person suddenly become super religious and quiet and studies the sacred text, after never having been that way, it is seen as a positive. Only the Amish seem to realize that that is not normal and can signify a real problem.

For Muslim communities, understanding that should be a priority.

When a young man suddenly becomes super conservative, quiet, ultra religious, secretive, his family and the community need to start asking questions, They need to find out where his head is at. What are his attitudes? They need to have frank conversations with young people like that, about radicalism and terror and how fanatics like ISIS are not of God, but are of the devil.

And if they suddenly get the urge to travel? That should merit some investigation and calls to whatever law enforcement agency is around in their country, to put them on national security radar.
 
  • #822
Yes, you have missed something, because it wasn't information to be released, obviously!!!!!

It was secret intelligence from one intelligence service to another!!!!!!! Except the US intelligence service leaked it all to the media.

Our government told the US to stop leaking our information, but they just carried on. Absolute disgrace. The UK government is furious about this.

Please keep in mind it wasn't the entire US intelligence service. There are a few rogue players that need to be removed and prosecuted IMO.
 
  • #823
Please keep in mind it wasn't the entire US intelligence service. There are a few rogue players that need to be removed and prosecuted IMO.

Hopefully its very few and they are flushed out quickly, so that we can regain confidence in the integrity of the US intelligence service.
 
  • #824
I have been trying to figure how leaking this info helps anyone. Who benefits? Sources in the Intel community usually do not do this, they wouldn't be holding jobs long if they did. It has to be people in the government agencies charged with handling this data. My suspicion would be that someone in our current administration wants to feed this news frenzy in order to generate support for some of the domestic agenda such as building a wall, banning Muslim immigration, etc. If so this is a dangerous game they are playing. It runs the risk of cutting off our information re possible threats from other agencies. It is really, really stupid. Maybe that suggests who it is that is ultimately responsible for doing it.

My son is in London for a college credit course and as I think I mentioned will be back this weekend. I got an email from him an hour ago, He hasn't noticed any major disruption and is not worried. I think he will be fine. Thanks to all expressing concern.
 
  • #825
16 confirmed deceased:

Nell Jones, 14
Martyn Hett, 29
Olivia Campbell, 15
Kelly Brewster, 32
Georgina Callander, 18
Saffie Roussos, 8
Angelika Klis
Marcin Klis
Jane Tweddle-Taylor, 51
Lisa Lees, 47
Alison Howe, 45
John Atkinson, 28
Chloe Rutherford, 17
Liam Curry, 19
Michelle Kiss, 45
Sorrell Leczkowski, 14


Missing and/or unconfirmed:

Philip Tron
Courtney Boyle
Eilidh MacLeod
Wendy Fawell
Kaia Kopusar
Ashley Taylor
Megan Burley
 
  • #826
All the crazies are definitely coming out today. Don't they know there's more soldiers and police on our streets ATM?

Maybe that's what excites them. Many of the people drawn to terror or who want to be associated with the fear surrounding it are faceless, unrecognized nobodies who deeply want to feel important, no matter the cost.
 
  • #827
<modsnip>

They should have sorted out the problem long before now.
 
  • #828
I have been trying to figure how leaking this info helps anyone. Who benefits? Sources in the Intel community usually do not do this, they wouldn't be holding jobs long if they did. It has to be people in the government agencies charged with handling this data. My suspicion would be that someone in our current administration wants to feed this news frenzy in order to generate support for some of the domestic agenda such as building a wall, banning Muslim immigration, etc. If so this is a dangerous game they are playing. It runs the risk of cutting off our information re possible threats from other agencies. It is really, really stupid. Maybe that suggests who it is that is ultimately responsible for doing it.

My son is in London for a college credit course and as I think I mentioned will be back this weekend. I got an email from him an hour ago, He hasn't noticed any major disruption and is not worried. I think he will be fine. Thanks to all expressing concern.

Crimes like these sure make me thankful they are building a wall and tightening the borders.
 
  • #829
  • #830
I am absolutely disgusted images of the bomb shrapnel from the crime scene have been released. The victims families should not have to see what killed their loved ones.

It isn't just that either. From what I have read the name of the suicide bomber was leaked to our press and then published in the US before the police in Manchester divulged it to anyone. By leaking the name prematurely it would alert anyone connected to the bomber giving them time to flee or hide out. It is a very dangerous disgusting game being played by the leakers and the MSM.

We have seen this dangerous leaking for almost a year now in our own country. The New York Times, and The Washington Post have been the worst to leak classified confidential information that easily could harm our own national security. These kind of MSM sites don't give one tinker's dam about being ethical or doing what is best for our country or any other country for that matter, and only care about having a breaking news story.

The media is now trusted even less than politicians. It is a serious issue now, and I hope it is swiftly dealt with and the leakers are committing criminal acts, and should all face harsh criminal punishment. IMO
 
  • #831
I subscribe to the NYTimes, and I just published my ire and concerns about the intel leaks and photos in one of the comments columns. Many, many people on both sides of the Pond are upset and venting in the NYTimes columns about the leaks and photos.

As another poster said, "loose lips sink ships!" Don't leak any more info!

Again, my heartfelt condolences, thoughts and prayers to all affected.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • smallHeartCandle.jpg
    smallHeartCandle.jpg
    10.3 KB · Views: 160
  • #832
It isn't just that either. From what I have read the name of the suicide bomber was leaked to our press and then published in the US before the police in Manchester divulged it to anyone. By leaking the name prematurely it would alert anyone connected to the bomber giving them time to flee or hide out. It is a very dangerous disgusting game being played by the leakers and the MSM.

We have seen this dangerous leaking for almost a year now in our own country. The New York Times, and The Washington Post have been the worst to leak classified confidential information that easily could harm our own national security. These kind of MSM sites don't give one tinker's dam about being ethical or doing what is best for our country or any other country for that matter, and only care about having a breaking news story.

The media is now trusted even less than politicians. It is a serious issue now, and I hope it is swiftly dealt with and the leakers are committing criminal acts, and should all face harsh criminal punishment. IMO

I don't blame the media. I blame whoever in the Intel community leaked it.
 
  • #833
<modsnip>

New York Times is the worst IMO. And most of those higher up in the American government do not have a good relationship with them. So I have to agree with you.
 
  • #834
<modsnip> I just want them to stop doing it. Its undermining the investigation and causing more pain for the victims.
 
  • #835
Or Europe can continue on and just do nothing, prevention is better than the cure.

I don't see it as whipping people into a frenzy, it just seems nothing ever gets done to prevent future attacks. Praying for the dead, lighting up buildings, #hashtagging doesn't prevent future attacks, it just makes you feel like your doing something, when your actually not doing anything. You can't fight terrorism using this method.

IMO the people who you see as whipping people into a frenzy are actually wanting to do something to prevent future attacks, they are looking for a plan to prevent it happening again and want their governments to actually do something.....and because of this, they're seem to be the extremists. IMO, It's all upside down.

It may not be the norm, but it occurs frequently enough to be regular. (see table below of attacks in the last 5 years in Europe)

Excellent post!

IMO
 
  • #836
I don't blame the media. I blame whoever in the Intel community leaked it.

That's right. People need to remember that the media wouldn't have this information at all if the leakers were doing their jobs properly and not leaking this information!!
 
  • #837
<modsnip> I just want them to stop doing it. Its undermining the investigation and causing more pain for the victims.

You're right. And it's effecting the security of both the U.S. and the U.K. on top of being insensitive. Really brainless move.
 
  • #838
  • #839
I don't blame the media. I blame whoever in the Intel community leaked it.

I understand, but I blame both. The media knows perfectly well when it is appropriate to suppress information they receive and what should be printed. They have done it in the past, but those ethical days of journalism for the MSM are long gone.

In the DC Sniper case the media knew much more about the two suspects the police were looking for but did the right thing and did not divulge any of that information while the snipers were on the run, and not yet caught.

IMO
 
  • #840
That's right. People need to remember that the media wouldn't have this information at all if the leakers were doing their jobs properly and not leaking this information!!

Right, but they have a symbiotic relationship. And the press can out pressure on their sources because they need each other. The intel sources use the press for favors to plant certain stories when they are doing an undercover mission. So they sometimes pressure those same sources for leaks when big stories come up.

They are BOTH wrong, in my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
139
Guests online
2,708
Total visitors
2,847

Forum statistics

Threads
632,566
Messages
18,628,443
Members
243,196
Latest member
turningstones
Back
Top