UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

We don't know what happened to Andrew and obviously have no idea what his side of the story may be

If Andrew was groomed, which I believe he was, he might believe (grooming is incredibly powerful after all, which is why it is so dangerous) that e.g. he has done something wrong himself and would get into trouble, serious trouble, if he gives himself up; that he is protecting his groomers (very common

True, I just go back-and-forth on whether it's really even slightly realistic that he went to live with someone.

But then again, life itself is an unrealistic mystery, yet somehow, it is.
 
I have considered that Andrew might have wanted to start a new life in London and as @davidt said, something might have happened when he was in London.

His father seems to hold some confidence in the Pizza Hut sighting but it's frustrating that there's no CCTV to confirm this.

According to what I can find, the homeless fraternity in London haven't come forward to recall anyone who matches Andrew's description.

London is a very busy city and its streets see sizeable footfall at all hours. Although fast-paced muggings are common on the streets there, I believe it would be very difficult to kidnap someone off of the streets there, I theorise that it would likely have involved a struggle and noise. But I keep an open mind to the possibility of someone taking Andrew in to a private property and something happening in there.

It truly is appalling that the police didn't examine the CCTV trail with thoroughness and in good time, before some potential footage was wiped. London has good coverage in terms of cameras and even back in 2007 would have done so.

If Andrew was abducted, where could he have been taken? My mind is drawn again to the King's Cross Thameslink station which closed just months after Andrew was last seen on camera in the area but given the alleged Pizza Hut sighting, it would be worth while to cast the search wider, and consider what building work was taking place at this time, what buildings would have been abandoned, whether or not there were any squats around and what parts of London were being renovated circa 2007-2009. I also note from the interview with Mr K Gosden that the Regent's canal was NOT searched and I think this is appalling for a missing person's case to not search a water way that is so close to where the last confirmed sighting of a person was.
 
imgur.com

Do you think it could be Andrew in the background of this picture?

In my opinion, the person shares the following characteristics with Andrew:
Light brown hair with reddish/blond hints. Similar/same length.
Long forearms.
Straight body (much like a teenage boy)
Outline of his messenger bag on the left?

B4-C717-A9-9-AA3-4-DC1-BD9-A-D5697-DE28-CB0.jpg
kid near lampost?
 
True, I just go back-and-forth on whether it's really even slightly realistic that he went to live with someone.

But then again, life itself is an unrealistic mystery, yet somehow, it is.
I don't think it's particularly likely tbh but you never know. Even if he did something else may have intervened.
 
Is that photo of somewhere in London? Also taken in September 2007 or later?

I'm sure there were appeals in the weeks after for any tourists or maybe even gig goers to come forward if they had any photos taken in London that Friday just to see if maybe he was visible in the background but it's nearly 20 years ago now.
 
I have considered that Andrew might have wanted to start a new life in London and as @davidt said, something might have happened when he was in London.

His father seems to hold some confidence in the Pizza Hut sighting but it's frustrating that there's no CCTV to confirm this.
This IMO holds some credibility. Italian food was something he particularly liked and apparently it is seen as a good lead by his family by how 'Andrew' interacted with the waitress. Also another young man, on his own, looking just like Andrew eating there on that day (on a school day) does seem too much of a coincidence. It is such a pain about the CCTV.
According to what I can find, the homeless fraternity in London haven't come forward to recall anyone who matches Andrew's description.
Andrew wouldn't have lasted long amongst the homeless community. One night possibly, but there were all sorts of out-reach programmes for the homeless, police and even the public who if they saw someone of Andrew's age sleeping rough would've pounced on him in no time.
London is a very busy city and its streets see sizeable footfall at all hours. Although fast-paced muggings are common on the streets there, I believe it would be very difficult to kidnap someone off of the streets there, I theorise that it would likely have involved a struggle and noise. But I keep an open mind to the possibility of someone taking Andrew in to a private property and something happening in there.
Kidnap yes, but lure or threaten maybe not so much. Look at the case of Martin Allen in 1979 (I'm not saying the cases are linked) where the abductor used the pretence he was a policeman and was therefore able to get Martin out of the underground. A shy 14 year old, who already knew he was in the wrong for bunking off school, wouldn't have argued or caused a fuss I doubt if he thought he was being apprehended by the police. Andrew could've been led anywhere - to a property or a vehicle.
It truly is appalling that the police didn't examine the CCTV trail with thoroughness and in good time, before some potential footage was wiped. London has good coverage in terms of cameras and even back in 2007 would have done so.
It's the most shocking and frustrating part. Although what actually happened may not have been caught on camera, certainly more of an idea about his locations on the day would've been. As well as possibly anyone else - IMO if Andrew was lured off the street then the perpetrator could've been following him for some time, to check that he was on his own.
If Andrew was abducted, where could he have been taken? My mind is drawn again to the King's Cross Thameslink station which closed just months after Andrew was last seen on camera in the area but given the alleged Pizza Hut sighting, it would be worth while to cast the search wider, and consider what building work was taking place at this time, what buildings would have been abandoned, whether or not there were any squats around and what parts of London were being renovated circa 2007-2009. I also note from the interview with Mr K Gosden that the Regent's canal was NOT searched and I think this is appalling for a missing person's case to not search a water way that is so close to where the last confirmed sighting of a person was.
2007-2009 there would've been a fair bit of construction work, empty buildings etc. (as there is today) but I think that if he was abducted it would've been later in the day when he could've travelled to another part of London, or the abductor would've got him away from the touristy areas of London to avoid too many people.
 
I think the Pizza Hut sighting is credible. I’ve read elsewhere (maybe on this thread) that he ordered Hawaiian which was Andrew’s favourite.
I'm ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I've heard suggestions that the witness described mannerisms that are unique to Andrew. But, I've not seen any footage or interview that confirms this. Ham & Pineapple is a popular and common topping but then again it must be rare for a restaurant to have a child (or someone who appears to be a child visiting alone).

My questions would be:-
1. Did the waitress request that the CCTV footage be kept for the investigation, if not, why?
2. WHEN did the waitress come forward with this information?
3. Was the alleged order paid for with money that matches the amounts withdrawn at the ATM in Doncaster, e.g. multiples of £20 - we know that this machine didn't dispense £10 notes.
 
I'm ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I've heard suggestions that the witness described mannerisms that are unique to Andrew. But, I've not seen any footage or interview that confirms this. Ham & Pineapple is a popular and common topping but then again it must be rare for a restaurant to have a child (or someone who appears to be a child visiting alone).
As schools were back then it's the one thing that does stand out to me that it could be true. A lone child, looking just like Andrew at a time when children wouldn't be on holiday is just way too much of a coincidence IMO
My questions would be:-
1. Did the waitress request that the CCTV footage be kept for the investigation, if not, why?
I'm not sure there even was CCTV
2. WHEN did the waitress come forward with this information?
From what I can tell it becomes a bit unclear, but her line of enquiry wasn't followed up for a while, so if there was CCTV it was lost like the train and tube footage. Just bad investigations by the police.
3. Was the alleged order paid for with money that matches the amounts withdrawn at the ATM in Doncaster, e.g. multiples of £20 - we know that this machine didn't dispense £10 notes.
Possibly, but by that time he may have purchased a drink or a snack, so it could have been paid with smaller notes and change.
 
Kidnap yes, but lure or threaten maybe not so much. Look at the case of Martin Allen in 1979 (I'm not saying the cases are linked) where the abductor used the pretence he was a policeman and was therefore able to get Martin out of the underground. A shy 14 year old, who already knew he was in the wrong for bunking off school, wouldn't have argued or caused a fuss I doubt if he thought he was being apprehended by the police. Andrew could've been led anywhere - to a property or a vehicle.
Although there's a good chance that Martin's abductor posed as an authority figure in order to accost him, this isn't an established fact.
 
As schools were back then it's the one thing that does stand out to me that it could be true. A lone child, looking just like Andrew at a time when children wouldn't be on holiday is just way too much of a coincidence IMO
Yes, and this was shortly after the disappearance of Madeline McCann, at a time when child safety would have been paramount in the minds of Britons.
I'm not sure there even was CCTV
A chain restaurant in central London would have been likely to have had CCTV, in my opinion.
From what I can tell it becomes a bit unclear, but her line of enquiry wasn't followed up for a while, so if there was CCTV it was lost like the train and tube footage. Just bad investigations by the police.
It is terrible the way that the police handled this case. So many possible opportunities to follow the trail were missed, it seems. I do wonder if a wider appeal across social media, now that social media is far from its infantile stages that it was at in 2007, would provide more pictures of the central London areas, especially King's Cross, Covent Garden and Sidcup.
 
I've heard that the CCTV wasn't working - and also that by the time that the waitress was spoken to, 6 weeks had passed which meant any CCTV was long erased anyway. Either way it's a massive missing part of the puzzle. Who knows, it could've been where someone first noticed Andrew, especially as they would've been able to work out that he was definitely on his own.,
 
I think the Pizza Hut sighting is credible. I’ve read elsewhere (maybe on this thread) that he ordered Hawaiian which was Andrew’s favourite.

I think something like that is really important although too much time has passed to know if it is a verified sighting.

However it would knock the theory on the head that he met someone or was lured away as soon as he came out of XC given that sighting suggested he was just in Pizza Hut on his own still nearly two hours after he arrived.

It would also suggest to me that whatever/whoever had tempted him down to London wasn't happening until late afternoon/evening so again that does throw the theory of just buying a single ticket to get a lift back up to Donny into serious doubt.

I think a realistic timeline is this:

11.30am- Arrives in London.

11.30-1pm- Has a walk around the streets, browse around the tourist hotspots and eventually fancies something to eat.

1pm-2pm- Pizza Hut.

2pm onwards- unknown.

6-7pm- Starts to make his way to a gig back in North London or perhaps even Brixton.

7pm onwards- Searches for tickets, touts, accommodation and sadly befriends someone with bad intentions and things spiral in next 24 hours.

That's my gut feeling on a timeline. His youth and being hundreds of miles away from home was taken advantage of in horrific fashion.
 
I've heard that the CCTV wasn't working - and also that by the time that the waitress was spoken to, 6 weeks had passed which meant any CCTV was long erased anyway. Either way it's a massive missing part of the puzzle. Who knows, it could've been where someone first noticed Andrew, especially as they would've been able to work out that he was definitely on his own.,

His image was being widely circulated at that point so I'd like to think the waitress would have a good impression still of who she served six weeks on and whether they resembled Andrew significantly. A 14 year old without parents would leave an impression in my mind just due to being unusual.

It's the best lead after he's pictured leaving XC there is really. Pretty sad to think if he was walking on foot he passed thousands of people in that next hour or two blissfully unaware he'd become major news a few days later.

Only thing I would say is the secondary school I went to had numerous teacher training or half days on a Friday even early in terms sometimes so it wouldn't be that unusual to see schoolkids of that age going into a town/city centre after midday on a Friday.

However they would be wearing a school uniform rather than gig t-shirt. Again I presume the waitress could at least recall whether the person she served was in casual wear or not.

I think it is very credible sighting but without CCTV around the place it is just that, a sighting with no context as to where he went next and that has been the case for nearly 18 years.
 
Didnt he have family in london? I always thought that maybe he lived with them or someone they knew? Maybe andrew told lies that he was unhappy etc and they felt bad for him so lied?
 
Didnt he have family in london? I always thought that maybe he lived with them or someone they knew? Maybe andrew told lies that he was unhappy etc and they felt bad for him so lied?
He did have family in London and he often visited them with his family. I think his grandmother lived in London as well as his uncle. I wouldn't think anyone from his greater family would lie for something so serious!

Another angle I am thinking is that perhaps Andrew made some other aquaintances in London during his past visits (a neighbour etc), and kept contact with them.
 
One thing I note from reports of the alleged Pizza Hut sighting is that the waitress pointed out unique mannerisms of the boy she served, such as a repeated clicking of a pen that Andrew's family recognised straight away.

As far as I know, I believe that:-

  • CCTV was attempted to be checked at Pizza Hut but it had been wiped over either by the time the lead got in contact or by the time the police deigned to investigate it, but I believe it wasn't until 6 weeks later that the police investigated this.
  • The British Transport Police were unable to provide any further CCTV other than at the foot of the platform and the main exit doors. No CCTV has been viewed of the Underground, local buses or other streets in London for whatever reason (possibly police too late in acting before it got wiped).
  • The Regent's canal has NOT been searched. The Thames was searched at a later point but Andrew's body was not discovered.
Looking at MAPS for 87 Oxford Street, where the alleged Pizza Hut sighting is believed to have taken place, I notice it's close to a popular music venue 'Ronnie Scott's', where live music is performed but I'm not sure if Andrew would have been able to get in at aged 14 years.

Oxford Circus is such a busy area, even more so than King's Cross, I'd say. Nearby Underground stations are Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Circus. A stone's throw away from Oxford Street is Soho Square Gardens, which has a bench dedicated to musician Kirsty MacColl, again another music link that may have been of interest to Andrew. Public gardens/parks can sometimes house rough sleepers, drug addicts and other people who are up to no good. Could Andrew have encountered an un-savoury character in those gardens? Could he have gotten the Underground to some far flung corner of London or beyond? Could he have gotten a bus?

What I am certain of is that the Regent's Canal should be searched.
 
I think something like that is really important although too much time has passed to know if it is a verified sighting.

However it would knock the theory on the head that he met someone or was lured away as soon as he came out of XC given that sighting suggested he was just in Pizza Hut on his own still nearly two hours after he arrived.
I very much doubt he would've been lured at Kings Cross. 15+ years beforehand it was a dodgy place, but by 2007 it was nothing like the Kings Cross of old. Yes, there was still a bit of seediness, but this wasn't so much round the actual station. With the Eurostar going from next door, in a post-9/11 world Kings Cross is, and was, heavily policed and usually by armed officers. If you loiter too long you're quickly noticed. Put on top of that the abundance of CCTV, and that it was the middle of the day and you see that Kings Cross wasn't the hunting ground of predators anymore.
 
One thing I note from reports of the alleged Pizza Hut sighting is that the waitress pointed out unique mannerisms of the boy she served, such as a repeated clicking of a pen that Andrew's family recognised straight away.

As far as I know, I believe that:-

  • CCTV was attempted to be checked at Pizza Hut but it had been wiped over either by the time the lead got in contact or by the time the police deigned to investigate it, but I believe it wasn't until 6 weeks later that the police investigated this.
  • The British Transport Police were unable to provide any further CCTV other than at the foot of the platform and the main exit doors. No CCTV has been viewed of the Underground, local buses or other streets in London for whatever reason (possibly police too late in acting before it got wiped).
  • The Regent's canal has NOT been searched. The Thames was searched at a later point but Andrew's body was not discovered.
Looking at MAPS for 87 Oxford Street, where the alleged Pizza Hut sighting is believed to have taken place, I notice it's close to a popular music venue 'Ronnie Scott's', where live music is performed but I'm not sure if Andrew would have been able to get in at aged 14 years.
Ronnie Scott's is an upmarket Jazz club - a young lad of 14 in a t-shirt wasn't getting in. It also doesn't open until the evenings.
Oxford Circus is such a busy area, even more so than King's Cross, I'd say. Nearby Underground stations are Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Circus. A stone's throw away from Oxford Street is Soho Square Gardens, which has a bench dedicated to musician Kirsty MacColl, again another music link that may have been of interest to Andrew. Public gardens/parks can sometimes house rough sleepers, drug addicts and other people who are up to no good. Could Andrew have encountered an un-savoury character in those gardens? Could he have gotten the Underground to some far flung corner of London or beyond? Could he have gotten a bus?
Soho Square gardens are quite open, smallish and used by tourists and also by office workers from the buildings that surround it (back then most big music and film companies). Although you get the odd scoundrel with a joint on the go or a couple of vagrants with cans of lager, you don't get too much in the way of dodginess there.
Soho has other music venues/history so that may have appealed to him. Although he wouldn't have got in, just by TCR there was the Intrepid Fox and the CroBar - 2 legendary metal/goth/greebo pubs that were always mentioned in the pages of Kerrang, Metal Hammer etc.
What I am certain of is that the Regent's Canal should be searched.
 

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