UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

  • #1,161
If only we could hear from his group of school friends. He was said to have a few he hung out with. They could shed light on so many things. Whether they used the school computers together, did they know of Andrew having email or entering chat rooms, what they now think as adults in hindsight -- was he depressed, lonely, being teased or bullied, possibly meeting someone, etc?
Yeah I would love to hear from them. I can kind of understand with this being such a big case on the internet though why those people would perhaps stay away,

My best guess is they have nothing useful to add, that they never saw him on chat room etc or anything like that and his disappearance is a bigger mystery to them than it is to us.

I know the daily mail spoke to some of his friends for an article in 2009 and they said they would often look at his empty seat in the class room and wonder if someone they never knew about bullied him or something. But yeah the overiding feeling seems to have been they just had no clue as ti why.
 
  • #1,162
If only we could hear from his group of school friends. He was said to have a few he hung out with. They could shed light on so many things. Whether they used the school computers together, did they know of Andrew having email or entering chat rooms, what they now think as adults in hindsight -- was he depressed, lonely, being teased or bullied, possibly meeting someone, etc?
My impression was that most of his friends were from church or the boy scouts. I do believe he definitely had access to the internet, though. Yet I don't think that was the outlet for grooming. I believe it happened in person.
 
  • #1,163
Quote shortened by me.

Please don't minimize such a murder as a panic "suddenly" event. You have to make the decision to do it, and It takes a large amount of strength and several minutes to murder someone this way. It's therefore premeditated, because there is time to stop.

He was 14. This person would have been a dangerous and predatory person, if something like that happened.

I agree he may have met up with someone in the day he claimed to walk home. I also think he may have actually walked home due to bullying behavior on that bus, though.
BIB. I think this bit neatly sums up the problems in this case.

Andrew left no trail or clues whatsoever about what he was up to that day. Instead we just have a few facts about his movements. Unfortunately all of them have multiple possible interpretations with nothing to be able to confirm anything. As you point out he may have walked home, may have met someone or may have been up to something else entirely. Ultimately there's no evidence or proof of any of them.

Same applies to most of things we know about.

If he'd bought his train ticket in the days beforehand we'd know he had a plan, but he didn't, so we don't. He didn't take his game charger. Does that indicate he was intending to return or did he simply forget it in his rush or have a spare. Perhaps he just grabbed the machine as he was leaving and the charger cable was upstairs and he couldn't be bothered to go and get it.

He bought a single train ticket. Does that mean he wasn't coming back or perhaps he was intending to return another way. Or again, did he not understand the nuances of train tickets. And we can't even be sure London was his intended final destination.

We can't be sure when he appeared to leave for school that morning if he never intended to go or if it was a spontaneous decision whilst on the way. He doesn't appear to have given the faintest of hints or clues to anyone. There's no known Internet or mobile phone activity but that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't any.

All the small things that might have helped are missing in this case. If he'd been seen walking home from school we'd know he did. It's impossible to prove the negative that he didn't have an Internet presence or access to a mobile phone. It would only ever be possible prove he did. There's an almost total lack of anything substantive to rule anything in or out. We don’t know what he was intending to do and have no way of knowing if he did it or if something else happened instead. On top of that despite everything that has been written its still very hard to form any opinion on how Andrew was in himself. Was he happy or depressed or worried? It all seems so vague.
 
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  • #1,164
And what the family has told the press is often taken as 100% rock solid truth -- e.g. "Andrew did not use a mobile phone" -- even though his family cannot possibly have known whether he had a mobile phone that he kept secret from them, just like he kept secret whatever his London plans were.

Sure, the police checked the school computers and could not find that Andrew had used them but let's be honest, that does not mean Andrew had not used them.

Andrew, like many teenagers, had parts of his life he kept secret from his family. So we have no idea what motivated him or really what he was like or what he was experiencing at the time or even really who his contacts might have been. It's likely that LE know more than they are letting on, as is the norm, and that is likely what led to the arrests a couple of years ago, even if those did not result in charges. The arrests did not come out of nowhere. There is more to Andrew's story than has been made public.
The arrests were certainly puzzling. Think they were released without any charges whatsoever. Yet the police were pretty keen to publicly link the original arrests to Andrew's disappearance. You have to wonder why.
 
  • #1,165
The arrests were certainly puzzling. Think they were released without any charges whatsoever. Yet the police were pretty keen to publicly link the original arrests to Andrew's disappearance. You have to wonder why.
If I had to guess, there are many possible leads they are sitting on from all that could be collected from the computers in the school and the library. They might even have Andrew's case info as a possible scenario to look further into some sketchy people.
 
  • #1,166
The arrests were certainly puzzling. Think they were released without any charges whatsoever. Yet the police were pretty keen to publicly link the original arrests to Andrew's disappearance. You have to wonder why.
I wondered if they had found CSM or similar that included images of someone who could have been Andrew -- he has some identifying features -- and the allegations were that there was a possible link to the individuals arrested. The charges involved child trafficking I believe which is very serious. They could not find evidence on their electronics to corroborate the allegations and the charges were dropped.

But it does show one line of investigation regarding Andrew's case and that will not have come out of nowhere.

All just my opinion.

I hope that Andrew is out there somewhere alive and well and also that his family find the answers they need as well.

If I had to guess, there are many possible leads they are sitting on from all that could be collected from the computers in the school and the library.

Could be yes. Or something similar. I would say it is very likely that the police know rather more than has been publicised or told to Andrew's family and are holding back information for good reasons, as is common. What we can surmise because this is not a murder investigation is that the police think that Andrew could be alive and the reason for his disappearance, or one investigative theory anyway, is not that he was murdered. With other cases, e.g. Georgina Gharsallah, the police have upgraded the case into a murder inquiry, but it is noticeable that this has not happened with Andrew.
 
  • #1,167
The arrests were certainly puzzling. Think they were released without any charges whatsoever. Yet the police were pretty keen to publicly link the original arrests to Andrew's disappearance. You have to wonder why.

Yes, why were the men being looked into for Andrew's case specifically, and why did one of the men have a charge the other didn't? It makes me think they were up to something, but maybe there wasn't proof it related to Andrew after all (maybe photos of someone similar-looking, maybe altered photos) and whatever was there, police decided not to move forward with charges at this time.

I definitely think it was something there, though (but not necessarily related to Andrew). Because LE must gets fake tips all the time, but this one was acted upon. All JMO.
 
  • #1,168
Since it's a guessing game regarding what the police might have, here are my two cents...

It seems clear to me that the police are sitting on a lot of information collected from the computers they could get their hands on – from the school, the public library etc. – back when Andrew disappeared. Since those were shared computers, you can’t possibly rule out if this or that action could be attributed to Andrew until you look at every lead.

This search can be a mess because you can’t know what could be meaningful and what’s totally unrelated to the case. If you gather all the online activity of 10 computers in the public library for a week, that’s a challenge already. Back to a month, even more so. You can’t know if Andrew even used one of those computers, and if he did, you can’t know if he always used computer 1, or had used computer 3, 6 and 8 also. You can’t rule out any searches made regarding bus schedules leaving King’s Cross station or records of communications using random usernames (with no need to provide a personal email or connect to an account to log in).

It is possible that some of those interactions stood out. Like someone logging into a forum that could relate to Andrew’s interests and interacting constantly with some other user. You might be able to track this person’s username back to them years ago. But you don’t know if this person was even talking to Andrew based on what you got. This person can’t even be named a person of interest, let alone a suspect. But you keep them there. If, 16 years later, this person is caught by another crime of similar nature, you might have something to go on...

It could also be that some corroborating evidence comes up. It's often said that the police have no CCTV footage apart from Andrew leaving King's Cross. That's not necessarily true. They could have collected images still available from some public streets that day or the following days. It's just not possible to identify Andrew for certainty, because lots of kids around his age followed a similar emo-influenced style.

That's very arduous work: imagine you have access to one camera in Block A, and another camera in Block C - there's no footage in Block B. You see a boy walking on Block A and reappearing a minute later on Block C. If you see a boy walking on Block A and not showing up on Block C, you don't know if this boy was abducted while walking over Block B, if he entered into someone's house, if a car driving by on Block C could have taken him against his will, if the entered the car voluntarily etc etc. As years go by, such a thing might be impossible to verify.

But that's something you can throw in the wall to see if it will stick if the person that could become a suspect (the one with the username found in the computer) was registered to be living in Block B around that time. You can't know if it was even Andrew who used the computer or was caught on the footage, but that's at least something to go on.

Then you move on to talk to people who knew the suspects around that time, and it's easy to get confused minds to mention something like 'I remember once, when he was drunk, he said something about this boy Andrew...' - we see this all the time. Those are the sort of protocols the police must follow before going ahead - they need to build a probable cause theory, even if a frail one.

Since the two men here were discharged, the 'kidnapping and sex trafficking' theory was just what the police could conjure up to get them under arrest and allowed to take personal devices and so on. I don't spend much time thinking about these particular suspects, but this arrest even happening really confirms they have a lot to still make sense of. I doubt those were new findings.
 
  • #1,169
I've always thought Andrew was lured to London & the bait was 2 of his favourite bands (Si'kth & 30 Seconds to Mars) had shows there that weekend. Was he groomed on a music or fan club site?
Was the CCTV of the audiences checked out? I think he came to harm soon after arriving in London.
There was a possible sighting at a Muse concert (can't remember where or when) a few years later but nothing came of it.
They weren't his favourite bands - his family aren't sure if he'd even heard of Sikth.
The Muse sighting probably just a lookalike.
He's most likely been dead since 2007. JMO.
 
  • #1,170
. I don't spend much time thinking about these particular suspects, but this arrest even happening really confirms they have a lot to still make sense of. I doubt those were new findings.
RSBM.

I am sceptical that police investigated computers/CCTV anywhere even close to the level of detail you're describing. I don't think the team originally on the case was very meticulous, unfortunately.

We don't have enough information to say much about those POIs, but if the findings weren't new(ish), why wouldn't LE have acted sooner?

I really wonder, if there was someone involved in Andrew's disappearance, if their name(s) are already there someone in the case files.
But we may never know.
 
  • #1,171
The questions I’m going to ask likely seem to have obvious answers, but here goes:
1. Has Andrew’s family confirmed if the Slipknot shirt was Andrew’s?
2. Was the shirt missing from his closet?
 
  • #1,172
They weren't his favourite bands - his family aren't sure if he'd even heard of Sikth.
The Muse sighting probably just a lookalike.
He's most likely been dead since 2007. JMO.
Did Andrew even like Muse? They are very different from the other bands he was into.
There are tons of slight, goth-y teens attending concerts, it's unlikely to be Andrew.

The case is still a missing persons case so the police don't believe that he was murdered, at least. Or that is not a strong enough theory to eliminate all others.
 
  • #1,173
Did Andrew even like Muse? They are very different from the other bands he was into.
There are tons of slight, goth-y teens attending concerts, it's unlikely to be Andrew.

The case is still a missing persons case so the police don't believe that he was murdered, at least. Or that is not a strong enough theory to eliminate all others.

Would be interesting to know if he'd ever been to a gig on his own before. Probably not being 14 still. I went to my first music festival when I was 17 (2006) and slightly younger for many going to Reading/Leeds festival in a month.

Did his Dad ever take him to any or was his taste in music different to Andrew's? Or a family friend or someone he trusted which again opens the trip down to London as possible option.
 
  • #1,174
Would be interesting to know if he'd ever been to a gig on his own before. Probably not being 14 still. I went to my first music festival when I was 17 (2006) and slightly younger for many going to Reading/Leeds festival in a month.

Did his Dad ever take him to any or was his taste in music different to Andrew's? Or a family friend or someone he trusted which again opens the trip down to London as possible option.

Don't gigs have age restrictions or require accompaniment with an adult? He was 14 but IMO he looked younger. Would he even have gotten into a gig on his own?

(Revealing my immense lack of cool as a teenager here.)
 
  • #1,175
Don't gigs have age restrictions or require accompaniment with an adult? He was 14 but IMO he looked younger. Would he even have gotten into a gig on his own?

(Revealing my immense lack of cool as a teenager here.)

I think it depends on the venue. I went to a gig when I was 12 with a friend, we didn't have an adult with us in the venue. That was a very long time ago though 😄
 
  • #1,176
South Yorkshire Police. With their history, I always have to wonder if their investigation was more than just incompetent.
 
  • #1,177
Does anyone know if Andrew participated in Philosophy studies as part of the summer classes at Lancaster University? I'm interested in his reading of Nietzche and how he was introduced to it. Was there any possible mentors he met in this regard? Strange, seemingly irrelevant questions, I know.
 
  • #1,178
Does anyone know if Andrew participated in Philosophy studies as part of the summer classes at Lancaster University? I'm interested in his reading of Nietzche and how he was introduced to it. Was there any possible mentors he met in this regard? Strange, seemingly irrelevant questions, I know.
I think he was in the biology group if I remember correctly. Some metal and alternative musicians have songs related to Nietzsche, here’s a ‘top 10’ list I found via Google.

Edit: here’s another list and a bit of background that has different Philosophers mentioned.
 
  • #1,179
Don't gigs have age restrictions or require accompaniment with an adult? He was 14 but IMO he looked younger. Would he even have gotten into a gig on his own?

(Revealing my immense lack of cool as a teenager here.)

You can go at any age to a festival with adult. Was at Download Festival a few weeks back (surreal typing this with the news that Ozzy Osbourne has passed away) and plenty of young kids were there.

Download 2007 had My Chemical Romance headlining and where it is held is about 90 minutes from Doncaster so that's the type of event he'd have probably gone to in the years after if he hadn't disappeared.

Same for gigs so he could well have attempted to meet up with someone older to go see one of the gigs on that night. It's certainly an avenue I'm sure the police have explored and the lead has come up dead.
 
  • #1,180

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