UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[rvlvr]

Exactly. Grooming and abductions happened before mobile phones and before the internet. I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that Andrew didn't have access to either. MOO

I’m not sure I support the grooming theory but without a phone and internet access then any grooming must’ve been taking place in person? Why ‘lure’ Andrew to London if you already have some kind of physical access to him?

Technology wise, kids weren’t glued to screens in 2007 like they are today but most teenagers in the UK in 2007 had access to a mobile phone:

“A … survey of teenagers in 2005 found that 82% of 12-16 years old owned a mobile phone”

https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/dp1350.pdf

Indeed, the year Andrew went missing the issue of mobile phones in schools had become something of a political battleground with the Tories - then the opposition party - calling for a ban.

Source: Tories call for mobile phone ban in schools

 

[Deleted member 235284]

I’m not sure I support the grooming theory but without a phone and internet access then any grooming must’ve been taking place in person? Why ‘lure’ Andrew to London if you already have some kind of physical access to him?

Technology wise, kids weren’t glued to screens in 2007 like they are today but most teenagers in the UK in 2007 had access to a mobile phone:

“A … survey of teenagers in 2005 found that 82% of 12-16 years old owned a mobile phone”

https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/dp1350.pdf

Indeed, the year Andrew went missing the issue of mobile phones in schools had become something of a political battleground with the Tories - then the opposition party - calling for a ban.

Source: Tories call for mobile phone ban in schools

I suppose you could say the groomer who was grooming him in person, had some London connection, and had to lure him there. I mean it is very possible because you do have perps like that all the time who lure/invite people to their homes etc and murder them.

 

[rvlvr]

I suppose you could say the groomer who was grooming him in person, had some London connection, and had to lure him there. I mean it is very possible because you do have perps like that all the time who lure/invite people to their homes etc and murder them.

True, but what would bring someone with a home in London up to Doncaster, to give him access to Andrew? Work? Maybe - but I’d have thought it’d be the other way around really. Perhaps it was someone he came into contact with when visiting his grandparents in London? Again, maybe. But how would that connection be maintained once Andrew was back in Yorkshire, without internet and/or phone access? I can’t help but feel that if he’d been groomed then lured to London, then technology must’ve been involved somehow.

I think, though, that I probably lean towards believing that Andrew went there off his own bat, for no other reason than he was 14, and teenagers like to push boundaries. It was early September, possibly he was finding it hard to get used to being back at school after the long summer break. He wasn’t considered rebellious or street-wise, but the kids I knew at 14 who were rarely strayed far from home. They certainly wouldn’t have been capable of getting themselves down to London on a train on a school day, but evidently Andrew was. I don’t think he was going to a gig or a show or a shop - it was just meant to be an adventure.

Then something went wrong. I don’t know what, and I don’t think we ever will, sadly.

 

[davidt]

Didn't the waitress describe some mannerisms that when put to his family they said were consistent with how Andrew would react when sitting down and eating a meal?

Not sure how long after that Friday the interview was conducted but while I'm sure it was fairly busy as a Friday it was a school day and ultimately Andrew was just wearing a short sleeve Slipknot shirt so that would be something for the waitress to try to remember.

Not sure though if that detail was mentioned to the police. Did they appeal for anyone else in the restaurant that Friday afternoon to come forward to try to collaborate that potential sighting?

To me it's significant if he was there and on his own as shows he didn't meet up with anyone straight away.

Been mentioned before but it seems difficult to find an account of what precisely she reported. Lots of references to her possible sighting but nothing really in terms of the detail.

 

[Konstantin]

Been mentioned before but it seems difficult to find an account of what precisely she reported. Lots of references to her possible sighting but nothing really in terms of the detail.

Yeah. It's central London, one of the busiest places in the city. Loads of people in and out, packed to the gills with tourists, loads of kids around who dressed like Andrew. I'd take this with a pinch of salt.

 

[Cardgame]

True, but what would bring someone with a home in London up to Doncaster, to give him access to Andrew? Work? Maybe - but I’d have thought it’d be the other way around really. Perhaps it was someone he came into contact with when visiting his grandparents in London? Again, maybe. But how would that connection be maintained once Andrew was back in Yorkshire, without internet and/or phone access? I can’t help but feel that if he’d been groomed then lured to London, then technology must’ve been involved somehow.

I think, though, that I probably lean towards believing that Andrew went there off his own bat, for no other reason than he was 14, and teenagers like to push boundaries. It was early September, possibly he was finding it hard to get used to being back at school after the long summer break. He wasn’t considered rebellious or street-wise, but the kids I knew at 14 who were rarely strayed far from home. They certainly wouldn’t have been capable of getting themselves down to London on a train on a school day, but evidently Andrew was. I don’t think he was going to a gig or a show or a shop - it was just meant to be an adventure.

Then something went wrong. I don’t know what, and I don’t think we ever will, sadly.

I agree with your leaning I think. It's tricky, because the grooming scenario is tempting - but I think if it's the case then there must be significant police incompetence (and yes there does seem to be some evidence of that) or Andrew had been given a secret mobile phone by the groomer which he had kept hidden.

Andrew travelled to London alone and it's weird to imagine a scenario in which a Doncaster-based groomer decides to lure him to London, unless we're talking highly-organised paedophile ring and major conspiracy. I'm not wholly against conspiracy theories btw, I just feel a random occurence is just as likely.

His parents have stated he was allowed to travel to London alone, so he wouldn't have needed to lie MUCH in order to make a weekend plan to pop down to London for the day. Missing school is two sets of lying, instead of one. And it involves lying to the authorities, which is much harder to predict/control. Even if Andrew thought that was a good idea, I don't know why a perpetrator would encourage him to do that. It's much too high risk. The fact that the school phoned the wrong parents - no perp could account for that happening?!

If you wanted to lure a teenage boy to London, you would do it at a time when people were least likely to be alerted for as long as possible. Missing school? The opposite of that.

Didn't they used to send the police round looking for kids who were bunking off?

I feel persuaded by your suggestion that Andrew did it solo, as an adventure, to see if he could get away with it. Or because there was something happening in London on that particular day that made him determined: an experience he wanted to have, the sale of something he felt he needed, an opportunity too good to miss.

One thing I thought of was a computer fair. Were those still happening in 2007? They used to have cheap games for sale and opportunities for networking other geeks. I used to go to them in the nineties. From memory, only at the weekends. But I wonder if they ever started on Fridays, providing early sales opportunities for people 'in the business'?

 

[Cardgame]

Yeah. It's central London, one of the busiest places in the city. Loads of people in and out, packed to the gills with tourists, loads of kids around who dressed like Andrew. I'd take this with a pinch of salt.

Totally agree. This is why I would love to know more information about how confident and familiar Andrew was with London. IMO it is a hard city to navigate. The idea that you could just arrive in London and wander about till you found the place you were looking for is unlikely IMO. Without a phone or an A-Z or incredibly specific directions from someone who lived in the city. Even then, the potential for the landscape to change on any given day - roadworks, buses on diversion, tube closures, makes any single route impossible to predict. You couldn't just say: turn left out of the station, cross the road, walk north etc etc. The station has multiple exits, huge intersections, and endless variables.

Maybe wherever he was going, he had been there before, and knew the route. But we don't have any evidence of this.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

What are people's thoughts on the Pizza Hut sighting?

I tend to think the Pizza Hut sighting was him. He would have had to eat lunch somewhere and interact with staff somewhere. His father said Pizza Hut was the kind of place they would sometimes go and that Italian food was Andrew's favorite.

I also tend to think of the many alleged sightings at least one or two were probably him. He enjoyed London and I doubt would go all the way there without exploring. That he was in one of his favorite cities and was quickly abducted or went quickly to someone's home doesn't sit well for me. I just think it makes sense he went to see the city and things didn't go south immediately.

Look at the lengths he went to hide his actions, he was doing way more than just taking a lone day trip to London.

However teenagers actually do just that -- bunk off school and go somewhere away from their own "boring" town. They think the world is theirs to explore, and nothing bad will happen.

This case is so hard, IMO, because I can imagine he wasn't groomed/lured there just as much as that he was.

 

[Lonicera]

Had Andrew stayed in London in the weeks before his death? He could have thus met his future aggressor. Just a guess.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Been mentioned before but it seems difficult to find an account of what precisely she reported. Lots of references to her possible sighting but nothing really in terms of the detail.

Ah right seems a heresay thing. Will look back to some of the press reports in September 2007 to see if she is mentioned as Andrew's Dad has mentioned it a few times in his interviews.

This is where the lax nature of getting CCTV has killed the investigation stone dead as even a glimpse of Andrew walking into that Pizza Hut chain at 1.30pm would immediately answer a few questions e.g. he didn't meet anyone or come to harm so soon after arriving in London. Or if someone was with him entering it.

Or it wasn't him.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Yeah. It's central London, one of the busiest places in the city. Loads of people in and out, packed to the gills with tourists, loads of kids around who dressed like Andrew. I'd take this with a pinch of salt.

In April 2006 I went with my Mum for a day out in London as we were going to an event at Arsenal FC in the evening.

Spent the lunchtime looking around Chelsea/Fulham and went into a Pizza Express around 1-2pm. It was completely deserted, didn't even think it was open but it was.

Of course the potential Andrew sighting was in a tourist hotspot but it's not like every single place in London is rammed at all times so on a school day it probably would've been quiet at times.

It's also different to a McDonalds/Burger King in that it isn't just people going up to a counter, ordering and going then to eat. A person would be going to individual tables so they'd be more interaction between staff member and customer and so you can get a better memory from that.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Had Andrew stayed in London in the weeks before his death? He could have thus met his future aggressor. Just a guess.

The family wanted him to go down to visit his grandparents but he didn't want to go.

 

[Lucy6226]

Andrew used to visit his grandmother in London, so was familiar. He was reported to enjoy the museums. In fact the family had encouraged Andrew to make the journey alone during the summer holidays that year.


His dad also confirmed he attended a summer school at Lancaster University in 2006. This has been referenced and linked in earlier posts.
This opens up the possibility of grooming without the internet. Maybe a pen friend?

 

[davidt]

Ah right seems a heresay thing. Will look back to some of the press reports in September 2007 to see if she is mentioned as Andrew's Dad has mentioned it a few times in his interviews.

This is where the lax nature of getting CCTV has killed the investigation stone dead as even a glimpse of Andrew walking into that Pizza Hut chain at 1.30pm would immediately answer a few questions e.g. he didn't meet anyone or come to harm so soon after arriving in London. Or if someone was with him entering it.

Or it wasn't him.

It would be interesting if a full account of what she reported surfaced. I think it was some time later wasn't it? If there was any level of detail that made it more likely to be Andrew rather than just someone who looked a bit like him for example.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree with your leaning I think. It's tricky, because the grooming scenario is tempting - but I think if it's the case then there must be significant police incompetence (and yes there does seem to be some evidence of that) or Andrew had been given a secret mobile phone by the groomer which he had kept hidden.

Andrew travelled to London alone and it's weird to imagine a scenario in which a Doncaster-based groomer decides to lure him to London, unless we're talking highly-organised paedophile ring and major conspiracy. I'm not wholly against conspiracy theories btw, I just feel a random occurence is just as likely.

His parents have stated he was allowed to travel to London alone, so he wouldn't have needed to lie MUCH in order to make a weekend plan to pop down to London for the day. Missing school is two sets of lying, instead of one. And it involves lying to the authorities, which is much harder to predict/control. Even if Andrew thought that was a good idea, I don't know why a perpetrator would encourage him to do that. It's much too high risk. The fact that the school phoned the wrong parents - no perp could account for that happening?!

If you wanted to lure a teenage boy to London, you would do it at a time when people were least likely to be alerted for as long as possible. Missing school? The opposite of that.

Didn't they used to send the police round looking for kids who were bunking off?

I feel persuaded by your suggestion that Andrew did it solo, as an adventure, to see if he could get away with it. Or because there was something happening in London on that particular day that made him determined: an experience he wanted to have, the sale of something he felt he needed, an opportunity too good to miss.

One thing I thought of was a computer fair. Were those still happening in 2007? They used to have cheap games for sale and opportunities for networking other geeks. I used to go to them in the nineties. From memory, only at the weekends. But I wonder if they ever started on Fridays, providing early sales opportunities for people 'in the business'?

JMO but what's the statistical chances of an intelligent independently minded teenager taking a secret trip to London that was supposed to go unnoticed by anyone -and- also completely disappear off the face of the earth and never be heard of again?

I would imagine that if he had *only* gone to London by himself for a day trip, the chance of him returning intact is 99.99%, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a statistician or a crime expert.

Chances of A travelling to London to take his own life and his body never being found anywhere?

Chances of A running away to London, ie leaving home, and never being heard of again?

Chances of A being groomed / lured to London by a London based predator and never being heard of again?

Chances of A being accompanied on a day trip to London by a local predator and never being seen or heard of again?

If he was running away, he'd have surely taken all his viable assets - money, passport, extra clothes and shoes, a rain proof coat etc. If he was heading to London to have one last blast and take his life, his body would have surely been located by now? People do travel intentionally to London to take their own life, most especially off the Hungerford foot bridge apparently. Also is it possible he went on a further train to somewhere he threw himself into the sea off cliffs, like Beachy Head?

If he was lured to see a local London based predator, believing there was a romantic or creative proposal such as tickets to a gig or such. We know there were active predators on the loose back then, even in public roles such as the likes of Jimmy Savile operating in plain sight, no evidence JS murdered anyone but all the same the point is these people exist and they perpetrate horrors beyond imagination.

JMO MOO

 

[Cardgame]

Andrew used to visit his grandmother in London, so was familiar. He was reported to enjoy the museums. In fact the family had encouraged Andrew to make the journey alone during the summer holidays that year.


His dad also confirmed he attended a summer school at Lancaster University in 2006. This has been referenced and linked in earlier posts.
This opens up the possibility of grooming without the internet. Maybe a pen friend?

But wouldn't his parents have noticed letters arriving at the house? Or Andrew behaving oddly around the post? I agree that grooming happened before the internet, but where is the trace of it? The change in behaviors? The sneaky phonecalls, or the popping out to use the phone box , the lies? His parents have no motive to lie about anything IMO so I feel they would have mentioned anything like that, and surely his bedroom was scoured for any evidence.

The summer course does feel significant though doesn't it. And who knows, he could have made that romantic kind of style plan with someone that week: meet you at Trafalgar square on September 17th at 1pm... The other person's birthday?

Feels a bit far fetched, but then in this case nothing really makes sense.

 

[ekardh]

Andrew travelled to London alone and it's weird to imagine a scenario in which a Doncaster-based groomer decides to lure him to London, unless we're talking highly-organised paedophile ring and major conspiracy. I'm not wholly against conspiracy theories btw, I just feel a random occurence is just as likely.

If you're the groomer, do you want to run the risk of being seen in a place where more people could potentially recognise you? London is a huge, bustling city where you would be much likelier to blend into the crowds. There are also more attractions in London to use as a pretext to luring the target away from home.

 

[Sluether87]

I agree with most of what you say, except the idea that finding a meeting place at kings cross station would be made simple by giving directions. The station is massive, and probably one of the most confusing in London, maybe with the exception of London Bridge. And I say this as someone who has lived in the city since the early noughties.

If he was lured by a groomer then I think Andrew was either met at the station, or was heading somewhere near the station. But you're right, he may have done this and been caught on camera, but the police didn't move fast enough to catch it. So sad.

One other thought though... What in all seriousness could a groomer lure a teenage boy with that could take place - and *had* to take place - during a school day on a weekday? Not a gig. So what? Just a hangout? I still feel it's high risk compared to say, pretending he was going shopping in Camden market on a Saturday.

It's the deception and the school bunking that make no sense to me. Ok yeah sure he needed to lie to his parents. But if he could manage it on a weekday, he could do it at the weekend when it would be much less high risk.

There *must* have been something specific about that day??? But what?!

This is all IMO.

Suicide seems unlikely. For a start, why commit suicide so far from home, and in such a populated place? (If we assume that was his final destination). He went to some lengths to make it seem as if he'd come home from school, so his absence wouldn't be immediately apparent (giving him time to return?). But is it believeable that he planned to such a degree, but left no note/no clue? Not even for his sister? There were no reported sightings in any remote areas/notorious suicide spots, he took more money than necessary, and no body or belongings have ever been found.

A chance encounter with a stranger is more likely than above, but still unlikely, because it would mean Andrew came up with this plan all by himself, with no obvious clue left behind as to what prompted it. So what made him get up so early on THAT day? There were no big concerts/exhibitions or major game releases. Then, it would be through sheer bad luck, that on this very day, and despite being relatively streetwise and familiar with London, he was then approached by someone nefarious who befriended him successfully in a matter of hours and then decided to kill him. And they were never caught.

The most probable IMO, is that his intention in going to London was solely to meet someone. Someone who he probably 'met' online. This would explain why he went on a very ordinary day, and why there were no major/special events taking place, that he would've been drawn to. It would also explain why he had previously refused to go to London to see his grandparents. It would explain why, despite 100% attendance, he took this day off, and being with another person, would explain why there were so few sightings. Child alone = suspicious. Otherwise not.

Meeting a 'stranger' would explain why he didn't tell his parents, even though he'd been to London so many times before. And it would explain why he only brought the PSP (without the charger), because he only needed it for the train ride. Without a jacket, it seems unlikely he would've gone far, or out late into the night. Finally, meeting someone he knew, would explain how this all happened. Because it was probably planned by the perpetrator and there was a level of trust that usurped his knowledge of the streets.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Andrew used to visit his grandmother in London, so was familiar. He was reported to enjoy the museums. In fact the family had encouraged Andrew to make the journey alone during the summer holidays that year.


His dad also confirmed he attended a summer school at Lancaster University in 2006. This has been referenced and linked in earlier posts.
This opens up the possibility of grooming without the internet. Maybe a pen friend?

Thanks for that. Interesting read six weeks after he went missing. I actually started university a week after his disappearance so at the time this case passed me by a bit from what was reported in the media.

The potential Pizza Hut sighting is in the report so clearly it was communicated to police/family in early October 2007 so you'd think memory would be more fresh with his description being circulated in the press at that point.

It is also different to glimpsing someone in a park or getting off a train as also mentioned in that paragraph as those are fleeting glances of someone moving whereas if it was him eating in Pizza Hut he'd be sitting down for a period of time e.g. 30-60 minutes.

Also had to chuckle at the head of the school at the time saying "This is not the sort of School where you get lost in the system." But clearly one that rings up the wrong parents when a pupil is absent so not a totally flawless system...

 

[rvlvr]

In April 2006 I went with my Mum for a day out in London as we were going to an event at Arsenal FC in the evening.

Spent the lunchtime looking around Chelsea/Fulham and went into a Pizza Express around 1-2pm. It was completely deserted, didn't even think it was open but it was.

Of course the potential Andrew sighting was in a tourist hotspot but it's not like every single place in London is rammed at all times so on a school day it probably would've been quiet at times.

It's also different to a McDonalds/Burger King in that it isn't just people going up to a counter, ordering and going then to eat. A person would be going to individual tables so they'd be more interaction between staff member and customer and so you can get a better memory from that.

Agree with this, a lone emo kid being seated, ordering a Hawaiian, paying the bill, on a school day, would’ve stood out imo, I think it’s plausible the staff member remembered this customer quite well, and I think there’s a good chance said customer was Andrew. If it was, then it suggests to me he was in London on his tod, and just enjoying his day.

Still, as @Observe_dont_Absorb says, what are the odds of something terrible happening after that, assuming a rendezvous with a groomer hadn’t been arranged for later in the day? You’d think he’d have had no bother getting himself back up to Doncaster - the chances of him getting home safe and sound were considerably better than they were of him meeting an opportunistic predator instead.

But then what were the chances that Lee Boxall would disappear off the face of the earth one Saturday afternoon? Or of Millie Dowler being snatched off the street during a short walk home from school? And so on. These things fortunately happen incredibly rarely, but the reality is that they do happen.

Edit: sp