UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[ekardh]

The most frustrating thing about this case is that we don't know if Andrew travelled to London alone or if he was intending to meet someone there. There's no evidence that he was in communication with anyone else. However, it would be incredibly bad fortune for him to meet with foul play on the one day that he decides to bunk off school. Then again, London is a heavily populated place with an increased risk of encountering someone dodgy. Personally, I think Andrew was groomed and got lured to London by this person, but I can't claim to have anything solid to support that.

 

[Lucy6226]

The most frustrating thing about this case is that we don't know if Andrew travelled to London alone or if he was intending to meet someone there. There's no evidence that he was in communication with anyone else. However, it would be incredibly bad fortune for him to meet with foul play on the one day that he decides to bunk off school. Then again, London is a heavily populated place with an increased risk of encountering someone dodgy. Personally, I think Andrew was groomed and got lured to London by this person, but I can't claim to have anything solid to support that.

He was seen in London at the train station alone, so it appears he did travel alone. But obviously there's no evidence showing if he met with someone else once he arrived or not.

 

[ekardh]

He was seen in London at the train station alone, so it appears he did travel alone. But obviously there's no evidence showing if he met with someone else once he arrived or not.

Yeah, that was poorly worded on my part. I know that Andrew travelled to Kings Cross alone. What I meant was whether he went to London with plans to meet someone, or if it was a completely solo trip.

 

[davidt]

Yeah, that was poorly worded on my part. I know that Andrew travelled to Kings Cross alone. What I meant was whether he went to London with plans to meet someone, or if it was a completely solo trip.

As with just about everything in this case it's the total lack of any evidence whatsoever of what was going on that makes it so frustrating and pretty much impossible to be certain of anything.

 

[davidt]

(snipped for focus)

i've always just assumed he didn't go to school ("playing hooky" for americans lol) because of a premediated plan to go to London, but you're right, going to London could've been an impulsive decision made after bunking off. i think i lean slightly less toward that scenario just because the odds of there being absolutely zero trace of him from an impulsive decision seems lower than going there with planned forethought and intention, but it's still certainly possible.

MOO

It's pretty difficult to know one way or the other. It just feels to me the more time and planning that went in to it the bigger the chances are that something would have been let slip or some other hint or clue left behind. But there's nothing at all. Not a single schoolmate or anyone else has ever come forward to say AG ever gave the slightest hint about bunking off school or wanting to do something else. Absolutely nothing.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Seeing as Andrew was a gamer could it be he came to London to play arcade games?. Arcades were a thing in 2007 with the Trocadero in Piccadilly Circus a well known place with the latest arcade games. Also there were others in central London as well.

His plan could have been as simple as visiting arcades for a bit and then heading home but something sinister befell him.

Sorry if this has been discussed but I bunked off school as a kid to visit the Trocadero Arcade in London.

If this was the case then it could've increased his chance to meet an abductor. Arcades in central London have been the cruising grounds for those wishing to do children harm from the 60's onwards. You only have to look at the Playground scandal. Leonard Spinks, Jason Swift and on and on....
Arcades have a dark history with the characters who frequent them sadly.

But of course this would've meant that Andrew would've had to have been weak-willed enough to go off with a stranger, and of course those of a dubious character were more wary due to the abundance of CCTV.

I would say. JMO, that although he may have gone to the arcades it doesn't mean this is where something bad happening started from.

 

[Cardgame]

I was listening to the Missing podcast episode on Andrew last night, and the detail about him taking money out of the bank, but not all of the funds available to him.

It occurred to me that perhaps he went to London to buy something.

I wonder if the police ever checked any magazines in Andrew's room to see if there were any adverts in the back for things that cost around the right amount of money.

I know there's no record of him contacting anyone directly, but could there have been a clearance sale or an auction?! Something where you could see an item was for sale and getting there early would guarantee you getting one? Camden market?

Would be interesting to know what reading items were in his bedroom, and if advertisements were ever scanned for obvious indication. Course, he could also have seen something online.

 

[lebvidox]

I was listening to the Missing podcast episode on Andrew last night, and the detail about him taking money out of the bank, but not all of the funds available to him.

It occurred to me that perhaps he went to London to buy something.

I wonder if the police ever checked any magazines in Andrew's room to see if there were any adverts in the back for things that cost around the right amount of money.

I know there's no record of him contacting anyone directly, but could there have been a clearance sale or an auction?! Something where you could see an item was for sale and getting there early would guarantee you getting one? Camden market?

Would be interesting to know what reading items were in his bedroom, and if advertisements were ever scanned for obvious indication. Course, he could also have seen something online.

He had like 212 bucks on his bank account and took 200 because the ATM only had 20 bills or something. So he took what he could, which wasn't much. He left behind some 100 bucks or so in cash he had at home. It seems to me like he wasn't planning for a long trip but was unsure of how much he would spend with train tickets, meals, maybe a cab...

 

[tes1984]

Looking at the arrests a few years back, I wonder if he encountered a couple of 20-something paedophiles, who won his confidence with promises of cheap concert tickets, half price computer games etc, and lured him to a property.

 

[lebvidox]

I started to think about this case as if the circumstances didn't involve him moving cities.

If Andrew lived in London instead of Doncaster and was allowed to walk in public alone, if he happened to vanish while walking two blocks between his home and the bus stop after leaving to go to school as usual, you might entertain many scenarios as an investigator, but the number 1 would be the work of serial killer – a crime of opportunity by a stranger or someone he knew and offered him a ride.

But if Andrew lived in London and was allowed to walk in public alone, yet said to his parents he was going to school but instead waited for them to leave the house, went back there, changed clothes and took a train to a different city [let's say Whitby, where his parents originally thought he had gone to], any subsequent foul play would not point as much to a stranger, but to someone he knew and was in cahoots with – or, at the very least, to a private life that the adults close to him were unaware of. The deviation from the routine was too major; it would add a whole new factor in the probabilities for a random crime of opportunity.

I think it's obvious Andrew was killed by someone when he didn’t come home that night or the following days. But a crime of opportunity by someone who randomly approached him that afternoon, relying on no previous relationship with this boy, doesn't sound as likely to me. It could be someone based in London, or in Doncaster or somewhere else who made plans to meet him there. Unfortunately, the trace of online history, potential texts etc are long gone, but I believe the police might be sitting on some stuff that might lead up to something.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I was listening to the Missing podcast episode on Andrew last night, and the detail about him taking money out of the bank, but not all of the funds available to him.

It occurred to me that perhaps he went to London to buy something.

I wonder if the police ever checked any magazines in Andrew's room to see if there were any adverts in the back for things that cost around the right amount of money.

I know there's no record of him contacting anyone directly, but could there have been a clearance sale or an auction?! Something where you could see an item was for sale and getting there early would guarantee you getting one? Camden market?

Would be interesting to know what reading items were in his bedroom, and if advertisements were ever scanned for obvious indication. Course, he could also have seen something online.

That's a good point, he could have gone 'dressed up' in his cool clothes to go buy something or attend an event such as an album launch or even just be a 'super-fan' as they used to call it in the hope of seeing one of his favourite bands. Maybe get a T-shirt or even something more secretive like a tattoo.

People don't do the fandom thing so much any more but there used to be forums where like minded people would chat about where to see their favourite stars or performers and they'd hang outside hotels or such in the hopes of seeing them. He could have just gone on a day trip with no intention whatsoever of leaving home / running away etc.

I live in the area and believe me, anything can happen to a person. JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I started to think about this case as if the circumstances didn't involve him moving cities.

If Andrew lived in London instead of Doncaster and was allowed to walk in public alone, if he happened to vanish while walking two blocks between his home and the bus stop after leaving to go to school as usual, you might entertain many scenarios as an investigator, but the number 1 would be the work of serial killer – a crime of opportunity by a stranger or someone he knew and offered him a ride.

But if Andrew lived in London and was allowed to walk in public alone, yet said to his parents he was going to school but instead waited for them to leave the house, went back there, changed clothes and took a train to a different city [let's say Whitby, where his parents originally thought he had gone to], any subsequent foul play would not point as much to a stranger, but to someone he knew and was in cahoots with – or, at the very least, to a private life that the adults close to him were unaware of. The deviation from the routine was too major; it would add a whole new factor in the probabilities for a random crime of opportunity.

I think it's obvious Andrew was killed by someone when he didn’t come home that night or the following days. But a crime of opportunity by someone who randomly approached him that afternoon, relying on no previous relationship with this boy, doesn't sound as likely to me. It could be someone based in London, or in Doncaster or somewhere else who made plans to meet him there. Unfortunately, the trace of online history, potential texts etc are long gone, but I believe the police might be sitting on some stuff that might lead up to something.

Only for the fact that until recently (better CCTV and more security) there used to be men who proactively hung out in the two big stations - Kings Cross and Euston - looking and watching for runaways, waifs, strays, loners, vulnerable children or adults to abduct and do god knows what with, then I would totally agree with your point of view. There's probably still some.

These abductors would watch out for anyone they believed they could rob, exploit, kidnap. Most especially runaway youngsters.

'Johnny Go Home' (documentary film can find easily online) is from 1975 but things didn't change that much until CCTV quality became so much better and also people's mobile phones took pictures / videos and had GPS tracking etc.

JMO MOO

 

[lebvidox]

Only for the fact that until recently (better CCTV and more security) there used to be men who proactively hung out in the two big stations - Kings Cross and Euston - looking and watching for runaways, waifs, strays, loners, vulnerable children or adults to abduct and do god knows what with, then I would totally agree with your point of view. There's probably still some.

These abductors would watch out for anyone they believed they could rob, exploit, kidnap. Most especially runaway youngsters.

'Johnny Go Home' (documentary film can find easily online) is from 1975 but things didn't change that much until CCTV quality became so much better and also people's mobile phones took pictures / videos and had GPS tracking etc.

JMO MOO

There are some nuances to this, but yes, it doesn't happen. Not necessarily a kidnap, though. I'd point to this excerpt of Pat Brown's coverage of Amy Bradley's case that dabbles into this precise topic. They wouldn't be going for someone who could lead to a huge investigation and a high-profile case.

 

[rvlvr]

They wouldn't be going for someone who could lead to a huge investigation and a high-profile case.

They wouldn’t know that at the time though would they, he’s not Andrew Gosden the missing boy with his own Wikipedia page at that point, he’s just another vulnerable and naive child who a predator could exploit.

I agree with @Observe_dont_Absorb that while such abductions were likely far less common in 2007, London’s history of children disappearing off the streets and either winding up dead or in some cases never being found makes it a distinct possibility this happened here imo.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Only for the fact that until recently (better CCTV and more security) there used to be men who proactively hung out in the two big stations - Kings Cross and Euston - looking and watching for runaways, waifs, strays, loners, vulnerable children or adults to abduct and do god knows what with, then I would totally agree with your point of view. There's probably still some.

These abductors would watch out for anyone they believed they could rob, exploit, kidnap. Most especially runaway youngsters.

'Johnny Go Home' (documentary film can find easily online) is from 1975 but things didn't change that much until CCTV quality became so much better and also people's mobile phones took pictures / videos and had GPS tracking etc.

JMO MOO

By the 2000's (in fact by the 90's) rail stations had been purged of their unsavoury element. More police presence (due to more of a spotlight being put upon these places) and increased CCTV cleaned things up. King's Cross in particular due to the Eurostar going into their has meant armed police patrols and real heat on anyone suspicious. Hang around in their too long looking dodgy and you'll have the police approach you.

Although he may have been abducted, IMO it was very unlikely at the train station.

 

[Cardgame]

He had like 212 bucks on his bank account and took 200 because the ATM only had 20 bills or something. So he took what he could, which wasn't much. He left behind some 100 bucks or so in cash he had at home. It seems to me like he wasn't planning for a long trip but was unsure of how much he would spend with train tickets, meals, maybe a cab...

The dad was talking in relation I think to the idea that he had run away. He was saying, he didn't think he had run away because he would have taken all available money if it was so.

The fact that he had access to some random cash at home, but he didn't take that, and specifically went to the bank to withdraw a certain amount was what made me wonder if he had a specific purchase in mind before he set off.

But yes, what you say is also possible. I just thought, if it were possible to trace an advertisement that he might have seen, then a connection could be made.

I think craiglist was a thing by then, but probably still magazine/newspaper ads. I used to read them in the metro all the time for jobs or things for sale.

Actually.... A job is also an idea. He wasn't too young to work.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

These abductors would watch out for anyone they believed they could rob, exploit, kidnap. Most especially runaway youngsters.

There aren't a bunch of missing kids/teenagers from London from around 2007, though, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me think if Andrew was abducted, the suspect quite possibly didn't have other victims. (I know Alex Sloley also went missing in 2008, but in my opinion Alex's case was probably not random.) JMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There are some nuances to this, but yes, it doesn't happen. Not necessarily a kidnap, though. I'd point to this excerpt of Pat Brown's coverage of Amy Bradley's case that dabbles into this precise topic. They wouldn't be going for someone who could lead to a huge investigation and a high-profile case.

They wouldn't know if a case would become even of interest to LE never mind high profile.

They don't care, they're brutal, parasitic, deranged, violent, predators.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

By the 2000's (in fact by the 90's) rail stations had been purged of their unsavoury element. More police presence (due to more of a spotlight being put upon these places) and increased CCTV cleaned things up. King's Cross in particular due to the Eurostar going into their has meant armed police patrols and real heat on anyone suspicious. Hang around in their too long looking dodgy and you'll have the police approach you.

Although he may have been abducted, IMO it was very unlikely at the train station.

I live in Kings Cross. Trust me, it's not safe. There's plenty of randoms and addicts and so much thefts it's off the charts. Police are only interested in preventing terror but they won't actually say that. If people report a crime that happened in the station to them, they won't discuss it, they tell you to ring or report it online.

There's tons of bag / phone snatches and also suitcases and backpacks that get taken but they won't even look on the CCTV or help you in any way. There's the same old faces of beggars and drug addicts doing the rounds constantly and scores of people sleeping in the doors all around the stations and 'living' on the seating areas. They can get nasty when you're taking cash out of the machine and there's no-one there to help.

Enforcement are all about violence, large scale crowd control (football mostly) to prevent drunken violence or things like protests, terror attacks, investigating suspicious vehicles or hunting down serious criminals who are on the run. They've got some plain clothes to try and combat the luggage thieves. Having said all that, I've not noticed or heard of any child being lured or groomed or taken away in memorable history. A woman wen't missing on the eurostar during covid lockdown. Last seen getting on the train at Gare du Nord. How can she have gone missing baffles me.

JMO MOO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

.A woman wen't missing on the eurostar during covid lockdown. Last seen getting on the train at Gare du Nord. How can she have gone missing baffles me.

Thanks for your perspective regarding Kings Cross.

If this woman you mention is still missing, does she have a thread here? (If not, I could start one.)