UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[JSolt1210]

I go back-and-forth about whether he was probably meeting someone or just avoiding bullies on the bus and then taking a day off from school to see London.

I have no doubt there were probably boys at his school who were the opposite of nice... So I do think he may have been compelled to just get away for a day.

That's a really good possibility, and one I hadn't considered.

If Andrew decided last minute (or at most the night before) to cut class in order to avoid bullies, then there would be no connection between him and whatever individual he may have run into while in London. And cases like these, according to police, are the hardest to solve.

This could explain why Andrew reportedly seemed "irritable" in the morning. Maybe he was debating like "Am I really going to do this? But if I don't, then I'll have to deal with those bullies today..." Maybe he chose that day because it was a Friday, so he could have three days of peace to himself.

 

[ekardh]

That's a really good possibility, and one I hadn't considered.

If Andrew decided last minute (or at most the night before) to cut class in order to avoid bullies, then there would be no connection between him and whatever individual he may have run into while in London. And cases like these, according to police, are the hardest to solve.

This could explain why Andrew reportedly seemed "irritable" in the morning. Maybe he was debating like "Am I really going to do this? But if I don't, then I'll have to deal with those bullies today..." Maybe he chose that day because it was a Friday, so he could have three days of peace to himself.

Of course, there's always risks when visiting a major metropolitan city, especially for a kid from a sheltered home life, but it would be extremely bad luck for Andrew to encounter a sexual predator on the one day he decides to skip school and visit London. For that reason, I tend to lean more towards him meeting up with someone.

 

[Cardgame]

Does anyone think it's remotely possible that he is alive, and chose to vanish?
Perhaps he longed for an alternative lifestyle that he knew his parents would never accept, and the fact that his disappearance has become so high profile means it feels impossible for him to come forwards?
He could have 'vanished' without realising how much pain he would cause, then the information that his father had attempted suicide after his departure made it feel impossible to come back.
Maybe he never intended to go missing long term, but was angry with his family, enough not to contact them initially. He met up with people in london, stayed for a few days which turned into a few weeks and then months... escaping his problems, escaping school, he would have to have been shielded by a potentially unsavoury adult, but it doesn't feel impossible that this happened.
I think it's a low probability explanation, but not totally impossible.

 

[Lucy6226]

Does anyone think it's remotely possible that he is alive, and chose to vanish?
Perhaps he longed for an alternative lifestyle that he knew his parents would never accept, and the fact that his disappearance has become so high profile means it feels impossible for him to come forwards?
He could have 'vanished' without realising how much pain he would cause, then the information that his father had attempted suicide after his departure made it feel impossible to come back.
Maybe he never intended to go missing long term, but was angry with his family, enough not to contact them initially. He met up with people in london, stayed for a few days which turned into a few weeks and then months... escaping his problems, escaping school, he would have to have been shielded by a potentially unsavoury adult, but it doesn't feel impossible that this happened.
I think it's a low probability explanation, but not totally impossible.

I think it could have been possible at the time, however it's extremely difficult to exist these days without some sort of paper or digital trail. I do feel he would have taken more personal belongings with him if this were the case. Everything suggests he planned a day trip, except the lack of return ticket. It's a puzzling one for sure.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I keep writing out different answers and then erasing them. I guess it's actually the more remote of the possibilities for me. Because I think if he were alive, he would have sent his family a letter by now, right? I do wish for him to be alive and well though.

 

[Drewby]

Does anyone think it's remotely possible that he is alive, and chose to vanish?

It's possible, but very unlikely. It's not something he'd be able to do on his own at least. Realistically he'd need somebody to shelter him until he was an adult.

Following that, for him to live anything close to a normal life as an adult in the UK would require a lot. He'd need to build an identity that would pass the sniff test for him to work, pay taxes etc. That's not impossible, it's just difficult. I know that ghosting was still feasible in 2002 - That's a type of identity fraud where you use the details of a deceased person to establish an identity. I know it was possible then as that's when John Darwin (a man who faked his death) applied successfully for a UK passport using the birth certificate of a dead child. It might not be possible today but might still have been doable in 2007.

But without a synthetic or stolen identity, he would have to have survived by only working cash in hand jobs, and possibly renting rooms for cash. He wouldn't be able to have a national insurance number, a bank account, credit of any kind, a driving license, use any kind of benefit system etc. That would be very difficult and I doubt he'd be able to pull that off for 18 years.

 

[TheRockingRev]

That's a very good distinction to make, and it's one of the things that makes this case so frustrating.

My hunch is that Andrew was secretly communicating with someone via school computers (which, from what I understand, were never checked), met with this person in the time he supposedly was walking home from school, and made plans to meet up with this person on the day he disappeared.

But there's literally zero evidence for any of this. In fact, every time Andrew was seen on that day—inside the train, at King's Cross on CCTV, and maybe at Pizza Hut—he was alone. And I know that absence of evidence does not necessarily equal evidence of absence. But when you can't support your hunch with proof, then you have to consider alternatives.

I've often thought of this and the conclusion though that springs to my mind is that if he was meeting someone, then that person wouldn't be meeting him where there was an abundance of CCTV. Said person may have given Andrew an address / place to meet later where they wouldn't be picked up on camera together. If it was an adult, that person may have been working in the day so that could be why Andrew was killing time beforehand. But JMO.

So if he went to London on a solo adventure, what was he there for? Apparently there was a rock/metal concert nearby, which would interest him. But I feel like a solo kid at a concert would stick out, and maybe other fans, especially ones his age, would interact with him (e.g., complimenting his Slipknot t-shirt), and yet no one has come forward saying they saw or spoke to him.

Conversely, if he was at that concert with someone, maybe that's why he wasn't noticed, because how often do you notice an individual when they're with other people?

I'm beginning to wonder if he went somewhere else after London, like took another train somewhere. Apart from the possible Pizza Hut sighting, no one else saw him in London. And if he took another train, maybe that CCTV footage was erased by the time police started checking.

This is a very good point. The amount of train stations in London - and King's Cross isn't even the busiest! If he merely went to another one (with a detour for a wander / lunch at Pizza Hut) then it would've taken a long time to find any CCTV, if at all. We know he went to London, but nothing after that. With the possibilities he had, he literally could've gone anywhere in the country.

 

[TheRockingRev]

this actually makes a lot of sense. If he was meeting someone they would be waiting at or near the train station even if his train was delayed because andrew was a kid by himself no adult would leave him alone.

But not if that person had nefarious plans. They would've been picked up on CCTV.

If he was to meet teens again they would have met him somewhere and would have gone to pizza hut with him but nobody recalls a group of teens. I wonder did he get to london go for a look around got hungry then had pizza and planned on meeting someone and something happened?

 

[TheRockingRev]

That's a really good possibility, and one I hadn't considered.

If Andrew decided last minute (or at most the night before) to cut class in order to avoid bullies, then there would be no connection between him and whatever individual he may have run into while in London. And cases like these, according to police, are the hardest to solve.

This could explain why Andrew reportedly seemed "irritable" in the morning. Maybe he was debating like "Am I really going to do this? But if I don't, then I'll have to deal with those bullies today..." Maybe he chose that day because it was a Friday, so he could have three days of peace to himself.

This does make sense, certainly the fact he didn't take additional clothes, the money in his room and his charger - it would indicate that he was planning on coming home. But then there's the non-return ticket, If he had hadn't taken all of those things, plus he was only going for the day, then he definitely would've got that return ticket because that would've been his plan for the day - plus if he was bunking off, he would've needed to have been home to keep up with the pretence of going to school for his parents. But then again he was young, and when you're that age you don't always think of all the possibilities.

 

[TheRockingRev]

It's possible, but very unlikely. It's not something he'd be able to do on his own at least. Realistically he'd need somebody to shelter him until he was an adult.

Following that, for him to live anything close to a normal life as an adult in the UK would require a lot. He'd need to build an identity that would pass the sniff test for him to work, pay taxes etc. That's not impossible, it's just difficult. I know that ghosting was still feasible in 2002 - That's a type of identity fraud where you use the details of a deceased person to establish an identity. I know it was possible then as that's when John Darwin (a man who faked his death) applied successfully for a UK passport using the birth certificate of a dead child. It might not be possible today but might still have been doable in 2007.

But without a synthetic or stolen identity, he would have to have survived by only working cash in hand jobs, and possibly renting rooms for cash. He wouldn't be able to have a national insurance number, a bank account, credit of any kind, a driving license, use any kind of benefit system etc. That would be very difficult and I doubt he'd be able to pull that off for 18 years.

Agreed. The thing is he was so instantly recognisable because of the amount of the press he had, plus he was so young looking, that he would've been recognised in a shot by someone. In fact you could say that he may have had a hard job going out in public at all.

 

[vereb]

This does make sense, certainly the fact he didn't take additional clothes, the money in his room and his charger - it would indicate that he was planning on coming home. But then there's the non-return ticket, If he had hadn't taken all of those things, plus he was only going for the day, then he definitely would've got that return ticket because that would've been his plan for the day - plus if he was bunking off, he would've needed to have been home to keep up with the pretence of going to school for his parents. But then again he was young, and when you're that age you don't always think of all the possibilities.

Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but what if he was meeting someone who had promised to drive him back home afterwards? That could explain lack of return ticket when other things seem to suggest he was planning to come back home.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but what if he was meeting someone who had promised to drive him back home afterwards? That could explain lack of return ticket when other things seem to suggest he was planning to come back home.

Yep, that has been suggested before and does make sense as to why he didn't get the return ticket. Holds weight too IMO that he was perhaps going to a specific event with someone, and that person had made this plan with him.
But then again, and what is most frustrating, is that we don't know if it was just an oversight on Andrew's behalf, he didn't hear the ticket clerk properly, just childish casuality to the whole thing or if the clerk actually remembers the whole thing properly - we really don't know. Yet each thing changes the narrative.

Same as the money at home. It could be he didn't need it as he was coming home. Or is it he forgot to pick it up and rather than chance going home and being seen again he withdrew the cash instead.

So many tiny things which would seem insignificant to Andrew on the day perhaps, but ultimately change how we all look at the case.

So bl**dy frustrating!

 

[touch]

There could be loads possible reasons for not buying a return ticket even if he did plan on returning.
-Maybe he didn't realise that return tickets are generally 'open return' and you don't have to specify exactly which train you want to return on. He might not have wanted to tie himself down to an exact time to return.
-Maybe there are multiple companies operating trains on that route and tickets not valid between them. He'd have more options for return trains if he didn't tie himself into a single operator.
-Maybe he planned a journey through London which would mean getting the train home from a different station so a return ticket wouldn't be the right ticket to buy.
-Maybe the trains he had planned spanned peak and off-peak times so it worked out cheaper to buy singles than a peak time return.

 

[Deleted member 287641]

There could be loads possible reasons for not buying a return ticket even if he did plan on returning.
-Maybe he didn't realise that return tickets are generally 'open return' and you don't have to specify exactly which train you want to return on. He might not have wanted to tie himself down to an exact time to return.
-Maybe there are multiple companies operating trains on that route and tickets not valid between them. He'd have more options for return trains if he didn't tie himself into a single operator.
-Maybe he planned a journey through London which would mean getting the train home from a different station so a return ticket wouldn't be the right ticket to buy.
-Maybe the trains he had planned spanned peak and off-peak times so it worked out cheaper to buy singles than a peak time return.

Yes this, British trains are really confusing and at that age I didn't understand the difference between an open return, peak, off peak, etc. It was only when I got to university I understood how returns worked so it could have just been a silly mistake if he was in a hurry and not thinking straight (moody/grumpy, preoccupied, scared of being caught, etc)

 

[TheRockingRev]

There could be loads possible reasons for not buying a return ticket even if he did plan on returning.
-Maybe he didn't realise that return tickets are generally 'open return' and you don't have to specify exactly which train you want to return on. He might not have wanted to tie himself down to an exact time to return.
-Maybe there are multiple companies operating trains on that route and tickets not valid between them. He'd have more options for return trains if he didn't tie himself into a single operator.
-Maybe he planned a journey through London which would mean getting the train home from a different station so a return ticket wouldn't be the right ticket to buy.
-Maybe the trains he had planned spanned peak and off-peak times so it worked out cheaper to buy singles than a peak time return.

The story is that the clerk gave him the option of buying a return ticket for just a pound or 2 more. So no great shakes even if he decided not to use it.
What has never really been clear though is how much conversation they had - I would imagine that by telling Andrew this nominal charge, he may or may not have expressed coming back. Or it could have been the usual sales patter but Andrew already had his plans set-out Alternatively the clerk may have told him the restrictions of travel and that's why he didn't take it, because as you say it didn't fit in.
We don't really know without further clarification about the exchange took place.
Unfortunately without any info, anything is merely guesswork. The only thing that would have helped is if Andrew had bought a return ticket - because that would have at least given us perhaps an indication of his end goal.
But not knowing why he did / didn't buy a ticket means that we go back to square one.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Does anyone think it's remotely possible that he is alive, and chose to vanish?
Perhaps he longed for an alternative lifestyle that he knew his parents would never accept, and the fact that his disappearance has become so high profile means it feels impossible for him to come forwards?
He could have 'vanished' without realising how much pain he would cause, then the information that his father had attempted suicide after his departure made it feel impossible to come back.
Maybe he never intended to go missing long term, but was angry with his family, enough not to contact them initially. He met up with people in london, stayed for a few days which turned into a few weeks and then months... escaping his problems, escaping school, he would have to have been shielded by a potentially unsavoury adult, but it doesn't feel impossible that this happened.
I think it's a low probability explanation, but not totally impossible.

I don't feel he's alive anymore.

However I do agree if he had started a new life somehow and somewhere in the U.K he has been in this persona for nearly 20 years so don't think I'd come forward either as you'd be stepping back into a role you perhaps wanted to escape from. And it would just feel weird with all the publicity it would create, some in this day and age negative.

So in that scenario better to remain "hidden" although I think that sadly happened to Andrew long ago and would need a surprise discovery for any body to turn up.

I'm guessing the most relevant thing in recent years to that theory was the "andyroo" chat on an internet forum? User actually not that far away from Doncaster saying they'd left home when young and change in circumstances meant they needed some money. Used his nickname but I feel if that is local they would've known the case and maybe impersonated to get some attention, bit like the recent Maddy McCann impersonator.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I've often thought of this and the conclusion though that springs to my mind is that if he was meeting someone, then that person wouldn't be meeting him where there was an abundance of CCTV. Said person may have given Andrew an address / place to meet later where they wouldn't be picked up on camera together. If it was an adult, that person may have been working in the day so that could be why Andrew was killing time beforehand. But JMO.

This is a very good point. The amount of train stations in London - and King's Cross isn't even the busiest! If he merely went to another one (with a detour for a wander / lunch at Pizza Hut) then it would've taken a long time to find any CCTV, if at all. We know he went to London, but nothing after that. With the possibilities he had, he literally could've gone anywhere in the country.

He'd have still had to stay that Friday night somewhere. He took enough cash to find a bed in hostel/B&B in central London and then move onwards from the Saturday but I truly can't believe that a receptionist or hotel owner wouldn't remember a young kid paying by cash with all the publicity of the case in the following weeks (reminds me of the scene in the first Home Alone when Kevin goes to the supermarket and cashier asks him where his parents are!)

So would assume that was ruled out by the police.

Or he was just wandering the streets of London into the early hours, slightly more feasible but eventually you get hungry, ask someone etc for directions etc.

I did know someone who's Brother went missing for a week about 15 years ago. Had mental health issues and needed some time out of day to day life. They were found a week after the appeal went out and had spent time lying low around the Birmingham canal network and sleeping rough so that is possible when you think of the equivalent in London.

Most likely he met someone late Evening and something then bad happened hours or perhaps even days later. And that could've been someone he knew or befriended or even someone completely random who noticed his vulnerability.

And that really is where it all ends unless someone ITK talks one day or a possible body is discovered and then you at least have a location to work back from.

 

[Inspector Evans]

The story is that the clerk gave him the option of buying a return ticket for just a pound or 2 more. So no great shakes even if he decided not to use it.
What has never really been clear though is how much conversation they had - I would imagine that by telling Andrew this nominal charge, he may or may not have expressed coming back. Or it could have been the usual sales patter but Andrew already had his plans set-out Alternatively the clerk may have told him the restrictions of travel and that's why he didn't take it, because as you say it didn't fit in.
We don't really know without further clarification about the exchange took place.
Unfortunately without any info, anything is merely guesswork. The only thing that would have helped is if Andrew had bought a return ticket - because that would have at least given us perhaps an indication of his end goal.
But not knowing why he did / didn't buy a ticket means that we go back to square one.

Sobering to think BTW that as of now over 18 years on that clerk is the only confirmed person known to the police to have spoken to Andrew after his parents left for work that day. You had the vicar seeing him in the park and then a few people around him on the train (think someone sat next to him on the journey down) and then nothing apart from a vague sighting in Pizza Express.

I find that credible but I presume Pizza Express was busy that Friday lunchtime but seems more people didn't come forward agreeing with the waitress he went to eat that day.

The clerk was serving probably over a hundred people that morning so he'd have just been another customer albeit younger than anyone else and on his own.

The lack of return ticket also confuses me if the theory of him actually coming back up to Doncaster the same day was ringing true as it is very tight timelines if he didn't want his parents to know he'd bunked off school that day.

 

[Deleted member 287641]

He'd have still had to stay that Friday night somewhere. He took enough cash to find a bed in hostel/B&B in central London and then move onwards from the Saturday but I truly can't believe that a receptionist or hotel owner wouldn't remember a young kid paying by cash with all the publicity of the case in the following weeks (reminds me of the scene in the first Home Alone when Kevin goes to the supermarket and cashier asks him where his parents are!)

So would assume that was ruled out by the police.

Or he was just wandering the streets of London into the early hours, slightly more feasible but eventually you get hungry, ask someone etc for directions etc.

I did know someone who's Brother went missing for a week about 15 years ago. Had mental health issues and needed some time out of day to day life. They were found a week after the appeal went out and had spent time lying low around the Birmingham canal network and sleeping rough so that is possible when you think of the equivalent in London.

Most likely he met someone late Evening and something then bad happened hours or perhaps even days later. And that could've been someone he knew or befriended or even someone completely random who noticed his vulnerability.

And that really is where it all ends unless someone ITK talks one day or a possible body is discovered and then you at least have a location to work back from.

I knew a girl growing up who met someone older on Bebo (a relic of another time...) and ran away with him before being caught by police. There's also the possibility of the Vampire Freaks social media site back then, which was shuttered due to its connections to abductions in the US, I believe but was also used in the UK. I used it at a similar age to Andrew and had unpleasant older men try to interact with me, so I closed my account.

Personally being in the alternative, goth and metal scenes I can say that whilst 99% of people going to gigs are wonderful caring people who would report/defend a young teen alone, as with any group there are a 1% that would jump at the chance at taking advantage of a young vulnerable person on their own in an unfamiliar place, offer them a place to stay (with nefarious intentions) and/or let them 'sneak in' to a gig and claim to be an older sibling having met outside a music venue. Particularly if you are going to the box office to purchase a ticket in person, which would have been a necessity for Andrew, that would provide an opening for sketchy characters out there who seem harmless on the surface and even helpful, but turn out to be predetors.
For example: "oh hey you're going to see Sikth, great taste man, me too! Do you want to go together?" etc.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I'm guessing the most relevant thing in recent years to that theory was the "andyroo" chat on an internet forum?

What's interesting about that chat is the person who reported it actually offered to send money to "andyroo" but then andyroo declined it, writing that he had to go.

So was it really someone in need, who had run away from home at age 14? Or was it just a random bored teenager who was messing around and didn't actually have a way to (or was afraid to) accept money in the end?

For example: "oh hey you're going to see Sikth, great taste man, me too! Do you want to go together?" etc.

I think something like this could have happened. Lured by the promise of going to a concert together, which is something teens love to do. (I was really "shy" as a teen, but once the idea came up at a party that some of us would all go to a specific concert in the summer. I remember the naive hope that it would actually happen, though it didn't in the end. I barely knew those teens but would have gone with them anyway...)

Sometimes I think there had to be a specific plan for all that money he brought with him; he was going to spend it on something besides train tickets and pizza. Because he could have taken out 100 or 150£, with a plan to use his card again in London to get more if needed, but he took out the maximum he could take.