UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[TheRockingRev]

He'd have still had to stay that Friday night somewhere. He took enough cash to find a bed in hostel/B&B in central London and then move onwards from the Saturday but I truly can't believe that a receptionist or hotel owner wouldn't remember a young kid paying by cash with all the publicity of the case in the following weeks (reminds me of the scene in the first Home Alone when Kevin goes to the supermarket and cashier asks him where his parents are!)

Unless he was offered lodgings by an individual of course. I fully agree though, any proprietor would've come forward afterwards if they had seen him trying to check-in.

So would assume that was ruled out by the police.

Or he was just wandering the streets of London into the early hours, slightly more feasible but eventually you get hungry, ask someone etc for directions etc.

I did know someone who's Brother went missing for a week about 15 years ago. Had mental health issues and needed some time out of day to day life. They were found a week after the appeal went out and had spent time lying low around the Birmingham canal network and sleeping rough so that is possible when you think of the equivalent in London.

It is possible, not ruling it out, although the London homeless community is quite well monitored by various groups, police, churches etc. a young lad like Andrew would've stuck out like a sore thumb.

Most likely he met someone late Evening and something then bad happened hours or perhaps even days later. And that could've been someone he knew or befriended or even someone completely random who noticed his vulnerability.

Absolutely. There is also the worry he was duped by someone who pretended they were in authority

And that really is where it all ends unless someone ITK talks one day or a possible body is discovered and then you at least have a location to work back from.

 

[TheRockingRev]

What's interesting about that chat is the person who reported it actually offered to send money to "andyroo" but then andyroo declined it, writing that he had to go.

So was it really someone in need, who had run away from home at age 14? Or was it just a random bored teenager who was messing around and didn't actually have a way to (or was afraid to) accept money in the end?



I think something like this could have happened. Lured by the promise of going to a concert together, which is something teens love to do. (I was really "shy" as a teen, but once the idea came up at a party that some of us would all go to a specific concert in the summer. I remember the naive hope that it would actually happen, though it didn't in the end. I barely knew those teens but would have gone with them anyway...)

Sometimes I think there had to be a specific plan for all that money he brought with him; he was going to spend it on something besides train tickets and pizza. Because he could have taken out 100 or 150£, with a plan to use his card again in London to get more if needed, but he took out the maximum he could take.

It's a really good point - and why take that money, but not the additional money at home? Was it just an oversight, was the money at home more like a savings pot and he didn't want to dip into it because he knew he would return home? So many questions - and again each can bend the story into something else.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Sobering to think BTW that as of now over 18 years on that clerk is the only confirmed person known to the police to have spoken to Andrew after his parents left for work that day. You had the vicar seeing him in the park and then a few people around him on the train (think someone sat next to him on the journey down) and then nothing apart from a vague sighting in Pizza Express.

It really is. Yes, I think a lady sat near him on the train, IIRC she remembers him playing is games console

I find that credible but I presume Pizza Express was busy that Friday lunchtime but seems more people didn't come forward agreeing with the waitress he went to eat that day.

I suppose the thing is, when you're out and about do you pay attention to those sitting around you if you don't think it will be important later on. He was also quite unremarkable in some respects on the day - quiet, eating alone, nothing to stand him out.

The clerk was serving probably over a hundred people that morning so he'd have just been another customer albeit younger than anyone else and on his own.

It would be interesting to know how much of a conversation they had. Was it a normal sales patter to Andrew, or did the clerk highlight it more because of how young Andrew was? Did Andrew instantly refuse it, or did he think or ask questions? I'm guessing it was an outward refusal, which may mean, JMO, that his plan for later in the day was already set-up.

The lack of return ticket also confuses me if the theory of him actually coming back up to Doncaster the same day was ringing true as it is very tight timelines if he didn't want his parents to know he'd bunked off school that day.

It really is - plus the issue in case of delays / cancellations (although being young he may not have thought of this). Just when you lean one way on this, you can go completely the other way thinking of the alternatives.
Some things - his keys, money, charger, lack of other clothing etc. makes me think he was intending to return home - but how is the question?

 

[Inspector Evans]

I knew a girl growing up who met someone older on Bebo (a relic of another time...) and ran away with him before being caught by police. There's also the possibility of the Vampire Freaks social media site back then, which was shuttered due to its connections to abductions in the US, I believe but was also used in the UK. I used it at a similar age to Andrew and had unpleasant older men try to interact with me, so I closed my account.

Personally being in the alternative, goth and metal scenes I can say that whilst 99% of people going to gigs are wonderful caring people who would report/defend a young teen alone, as with any group there are a 1% that would jump at the chance at taking advantage of a young vulnerable person on their own in an unfamiliar place, offer them a place to stay (with nefarious intentions) and/or let them 'sneak in' to a gig and claim to be an older sibling having met outside a music venue. Particularly if you are going to the box office to purchase a ticket in person, which would have been a necessity for Andrew, that would provide an opening for sketchy characters out there who seem harmless on the surface and even helpful, but turn out to be predetors.
For example: "oh hey you're going to see Sikth, great taste man, me too! Do you want to go together?" etc.

In terms of possibilities of luring him down to London I've never ruled out the event motive e.g. there was some meet up or gig happening that weekend in London he was desperate to see so he would bunk off school to get down early.

We know for certain there were bands playing down in London in the genre of music he loved and in venues very close by to XC that weekend. Also that gamer meet up in one of the London parks that took place on the Saturday.

So rather than a random let's go down to London on spur of the moment, there was certainly something that tempted down there on that specific Friday. What clouds everything is the unknown timeline that Friday once he came out of XC entrance as he potentially had about 8-9 hours to kill.

 

[Action Hank]

Hi folks, sorry to break the flow of the conversation, but have any of Andrew's friends from school ever spoken out?

 

[Inspector Evans]

Hi folks, sorry to break the flow of the conversation, but have any of Andrew's friends from school ever spoken out?

Don't think there's been any press interviews.

However a few months back there was archive from late 2007 of a music forum where people were appealing for more information and a classmate came on and confirmed he was being bullied at the time.

It would be good to get some insight from someone just to the situation at school given he was in every single day pretty much up to the Friday.

O.K someone who kept to himself and didn't really socialise but still would be in lessons and someone not involved in the bullying could at least say how he was.

Time passes though and everyone will be in their early to mid 30s so moving on with their lives etc. You'd think an investigative journalist would try to track down a few of his classmates, teacher or even the head for perhaps a 20th anniversary special?

 

[Sjöberg]

But then again, and what is most frustrating, is that we don't know if it was just an oversight on Andrew's behalf, he didn't hear the ticket clerk properly, just childish casuality to the whole thing or if the clerk actually remembers the whole thing properly - we really don't know. Yet each thing changes the narrative.

I've never found the return ticket refusal too odd. It is reported that he was deaf in one ear and more of a shy/introverted type. I know many many many people who "auto-refuse" any and all offers made by a sales person, because these are 1) annoying and distruprive, 2) you have to figure out the fine print, 3) you have to have an awkward conversation with a stranger who is trying to persuade you to buy something that you probably end up not wanting to buy in the end anyways and then just feel worse about it. Additionally, he was probably worried about getting caught (so tunnel vision to get out quick) and the ticket system is not too easy or straigtforward and AFAIK he had never done the trip alone before (so figuring out the system was more difficult).

I also think the "walking home from school" has something to do with the case.

Also, did we ever find out anything real about the arrests that were made?

 

[Cardgame]

I might be in the minority but I find the single train ticket quite odd. I travelled by train all over the UK quite a lot as a teenager and , certainly fifteen or so years ago, it was universally known to be cheaper /more cost effective to buy a return ticket. Now with train line apps etc it might be different.

But back then, it was almost never worth getting a single, even if you didn't intend to travel back, or had alternative plans, because for the sake of two or so more pounds you could have a whole other ticket for the same distance journey. I would often pass that return on, if I didn't intend to use it myself.

I still travel a lot by train, and I almost NEVER buy a single, unless I am forced to travel at peak time and intend to return on a non peak ticket. In a reverse situation I would still buy a return and upgrade it if I returned at peak time.

To me, the single feels potentially symbolic of "I am never coming back".

Maybe he was in a mood. Maybe the trip was more spontaneous/angry/impulsive than 'planned'.

And in his mind, without thinking through any consequences at all, he just upped and left and in that moment he imagined that he was going for good.

 

[Cardgame]

Also, did we ever find out anything real about the arrests that were made?

Frustratingly little information is available. Not sure we even know specifically what they were arrested for beyond 'in connection with'. Or why.

 

[Hustling01]

If he is alive then how on earth would you get a new identity? Like how would he get a bank account, job, benefits, hospital etc? If he was alive he would have to have a new identity and have a past, a backstory he would have to get people to accept and not be suspicious. How would he spin it to a potential partner and say i have no mom no dad no friends no nothing he couldnt even tell that partner where he was from in case they searched for him online. I feel he died a long time ago.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

...

Hi folks, sorry to break the flow of the conversation, but have any of Andrew's friends from school ever spoken out?

I don't recall school friends being quoted in articles, but I do recall a teacher saying he had small "posee" of friends he hung out with at school. Still true at the time he disappeared, though? That's unclear, IMO.

 

[TheRockingRev]

If he is alive then how on earth would you get a new identity? Like how would he get a bank account, job, benefits, hospital etc? If he was alive he would have to have a new identity and have a past, a backstory he would have to get people to accept and not be suspicious. How would he spin it to a potential partner and say i have no mom no dad no friends no nothing he couldnt even tell that partner where he was from in case they searched for him online. I feel he died a long time ago.

When he disappeared there would've been no chance in getting a new identity by himself - he was 14, but looked 12. There was no way he was going to be able to rent a room, get a job or do anything. In those years he would've had to have been in cahoots with someone, and probably never gone outside (his profile was so well known). If he was alive for any great deal of time after his vanishing then IMO he was held forcibly captive - but sadly I believe he died not long after he disappeared,

 

[TheRockingRev]

In terms of possibilities of luring him down to London I've never ruled out the event motive e.g. there was some meet up or gig happening that weekend in London he was desperate to see so he would bunk off school to get down early.

We know for certain there were bands playing down in London in the genre of music he loved and in venues very close by to XC that weekend. Also that gamer meet up in one of the London parks that took place on the Saturday.

So rather than a random let's go down to London on spur of the moment, there was certainly something that tempted down there on that specific Friday. What clouds everything is the unknown timeline that Friday once he came out of XC entrance as he potentially had about 8-9 hours to kill.

Exactly this. JMO, but I fully agree. The date I think is relevant. Like you say there was lots happening in London on that day/weekend. Although I do sort of agree that London was somewhere he knew/liked - if it was just a day of bunking off because for whatever reason he didn't want to go to school, then there were so many other places he could've gone to - nearer, cheaper, easier to get to/back from.
The date and the location IMO are a big key to this, and as you say the big question is what happens in those hours.

 

[Inspector Evans]

If he is alive then how on earth would you get a new identity? Like how would he get a bank account, job, benefits, hospital etc? If he was alive he would have to have a new identity and have a past, a backstory he would have to get people to accept and not be suspicious. How would he spin it to a potential partner and say i have no mom no dad no friends no nothing he couldnt even tell that partner where he was from in case they searched for him online. I feel he died a long time ago.

99.9999% that last sentence is correct.

However the John Darwin example was used a few pages ago. Guy in his 50s known to local community stages a disappearance, presumed dead and in reality is just living his usual life.

However that was with the help of his Wife and he effectively became a prisoner in his own home bar some walks in his local area when he was actually spotted a few times. Took the identity of someone who'd died decades ago when taking a trip to the local cemetery.

That was obviously a fraudulent claim.

Andrew would've needed a willing accomplice to achieve any of that and I struggle to believe all these years later a stranger in his life up to September 2007 would've completely shielded him from anyone knowing so it is near impossible.

I think there was also a case in America where someone disappeared and was living in another city under new identity and it only came to light when they passed away.

 

[Inspector Evans]

Exactly this. JMO, but I fully agree. The date I think is relevant. Like you say there was lots happening in London on that day/weekend. Although I do sort of agree that London was somewhere he knew/liked - if it was just a day of bunking off because for whatever reason he didn't want to go to school, then there were so many other places he could've gone to - nearer, cheaper, easier to get to/back from.
The date and the location IMO are a big key to this, and as you say the big question is what happens in those hours.

I'd be interested to see timeline of other Fridays in the months before. Was he always at home in the summer holidays or coming back late on in the day?

His Family were happy for him to get some early independence and be out and about and on that day they didn't even attempt to interact with him about 7pm on the Friday when he failed to show for the dinner prepared.

So maybe on the quiet he'd been going down to London a few times in say July-August 2007 and coming back for dinner at 7pm with his parents none the wiser as to his routine. Clearly no way of checking any CCTV given the lack of it for the day he was actually disappeared and other ticket clerks at Doncaster probably wouldn't remember who they served.

I think that would open up the possibility of him reaching out to someone in London given there is no known electronic trail.

 

[KathPlumber]

I've never found the return ticket refusal too odd. It is reported that he was deaf in one ear and more of a shy/introverted type. I know many many many people who "auto-refuse" any and all offers made by a sales person, because these are 1) annoying and distruprive, 2) you have to figure out the fine print, 3) you have to have an awkward conversation with a stranger who is trying to persuade you to buy something that you probably end up not wanting to buy in the end anyways and then just feel worse about it. Additionally, he was probably worried about getting caught (so tunnel vision to get out quick) and the ticket system is not too easy or straigtforward and AFAIK he had never done the trip alone before (so figuring out the system was more difficult).

I also think the "walking home from school" has something to do with the case.

Same. His dad was home early and A potentially didn’t anticipate him being there when he came home late.

Also, did we ever find out anything real about the arrests that were made?

No. It all seems to be very locked down.

I still consider it possible that Andrew was going to London with that wad of cash to pay someone who wasn’t expecting him a visit. I feel like luring him there was a such a risk for a predator because who could assume that the police would do such a poor job of tracking him in those early weeks? Or the schools attempt to contact the parents would fail? You’d assume that someone luring him there would be savvy enough to assume there would be a breadcrumb trail, and / or that a missing kid would alert the authorities immediately and cause a ruckus. The police favouring the runaway option or the family member offender couldn’t have been predicted. You don’t assume that it would be a month before they finally got onto it and only then thanks to the family. So it would be pretty risky.

But Andrew deciding to pay an in person visit of his own volition to maybe try to sort out some strife he’s got into … that scans for me, especially for someone who was obviously keep Ming a whole heap of secrets.

 

[davidt]

Same. His dad was home early and A potentially didn’t anticipate him being there when he came home late.

No. It all seems to be very locked down.

I still consider it possible that Andrew was going to London with that wad of cash to pay someone who wasn’t expecting him a visit. I feel like luring him there was a such a risk for a predator because who could assume that the police would do such a poor job of tracking him in those early weeks? Or the schools attempt to contact the parents would fail? You’d assume that someone luring him there would be savvy enough to assume there would be a breadcrumb trail, and / or that a missing kid would alert the authorities immediately and cause a ruckus. The police favouring the runaway option or the family member offender couldn’t have been predicted. You don’t assume that it would be a month before they finally got onto it and only then thanks to the family. So it would be pretty risky.

But Andrew deciding to pay an in person visit of his own volition to maybe try to sort out some strife he’s got into … that scans for me, especially for someone who was obviously keep Ming a whole heap of secrets.

I think the original arrests were in relation to human trafficking. At the time they seized numerous devices which they said would take some time to analyse. Next thing you hear is that they've been released without charge. I remain puzzled why the police went so public linking tbe arrests to Andrew when they could have waited and worked quietly in tbe background. I mean there must have been something to prompt them to do this. They must receive lots of tips and so on and wouldn't go public without good reason you'd think.

 

[TheRockingRev]

I'd be interested to see timeline of other Fridays in the months before. Was he always at home in the summer holidays or coming back late on in the day?

His Family were happy for him to get some early independence and be out and about and on that day they didn't even attempt to interact with him about 7pm on the Friday when he failed to show for the dinner prepared.

So maybe on the quiet he'd been going down to London a few times in say July-August 2007 and coming back for dinner at 7pm with his parents none the wiser as to his routine. Clearly no way of checking any CCTV given the lack of it for the day he was actually disappeared and other ticket clerks at Doncaster probably wouldn't remember who they served.

I think that would open up the possibility of him reaching out to someone in London given there is no known electronic trail.

I would presume, although no guarantee, that the amount of money he had was right in his parents eyes to what he had saved/been given, and that no-one had been giving him money, possibly as a travel fund.
Just as a thought, what if he had been given money by someone and the amount he withdrew was to pay someone back? If he had been out and about in the days of the summer holidays, had someone fronted him the money and was now asking for it back. Andrew could've been lured to London under the pretence of paying it back in person.

 

[Action Hank]

Don't think there's been any press interviews.

However a few months back there was archive from late 2007 of a music forum where people were appealing for more information and a classmate came on and confirmed he was being bullied at the time.

It would be good to get some insight from someone just to the situation at school given he was in every single day pretty much up to the Friday.

O.K someone who kept to himself and didn't really socialise but still would be in lessons and someone not involved in the bullying could at least say how he was.

Time passes though and everyone will be in their early to mid 30s so moving on with their lives etc. You'd think an investigative journalist would try to track down a few of his classmates, teacher or even the head for perhaps a 20th anniversary special?

If I was in a class with a kid that went missing at school I'd be dying to speak out about them.

 

[davidt]

If I was in a class with a kid that went missing at school I'd be dying to speak out about them.

I an recall somewhere a former schoolmate was quoted as saying Andrew had cut himself from some of his former friends.