UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[Inspector Evans]

I wonder if he may have met someone who was going off to uni or back to uni. University start dates are generally later in sept or early oct rather than school start dates which are early sept.

Student accommodation varies wildly in the UK, from shared apartments & houses to solo studio+ apartments, if you go for a private rental instead of university associated accommodation. This would give more cover potentially for a perp or associate. I knew plenty of people in university who had partners, siblings and even parents stay over in their shared university accommodation, but that leaves a lot of opportunity for someone to be found out.

I can speak from experience here as I actually started university in September 2007 exactly a week later from the day he went missing so one of the reasons the case sticks in my mind.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Difficult to be precise but according to reports Andrew walked home from school once or possibly twice in the week before he disappeared. There doesn't appear to be any reports of anyone seeing Andrew walking and that we only have Andrew's word that he did so. So there are various possibilities and as usual we have absolutely nothing in the way of evidence. It's actually quite striking that Andrew doesn't seem have left a single hint or clue about anything. Not one person has come forward with anything of note and Andrew himself left nothing either. No one seems to have any notion of anything going on or that Andrew might have been meeting someone or anything at all.

One of the things we've not really had any clear clarification on is his movements and activities in the summer holiday weeks proceeding his disappearance. This would've been the perfect time for someone to groom him, and with the school term having started they would've had to have moved quickly in order to carry out their nefarious plan before he went back to a school routine.

 

[Inspector Evans]

One of the things we've not really had any clear clarification on is his movements and activities in the summer holiday weeks proceeding his disappearance. This would've been the perfect time for someone to groom him, and with the school term having started they would've had to have moved quickly in order to carry out their nefarious plan before he went back to a school routine.

Yes I'd love to know if he was always at home during 2007 summer holidays (as we know he was at the gifted camp for a few weeks the previous year). Was he coming home late some days? Perhaps that fateful visit to London wasn't actually the first trip in that period especially with no school to inform in the weeks before?

His parents also seem to be ones who encouraged their children to be independent well before late teenage years which is more the case in this era with them being alright with his sister going down to London at 15 to hand out her CV. That is certainly unusual.

And if they both go in after 5pm on the Friday they didn't realise until two hours later he wasn't actually in the house so seems they just let Andrew get up to what he wanted to do outside meal times.

 

[davidt]

Yes I'd love to know if he was always at home during 2007 summer holidays (as we know he was at the gifted camp for a few weeks the previous year). Was he coming home late some days? Perhaps that fateful visit to London wasn't actually the first trip in that period especially with no school to inform in the weeks before?

His parents also seem to be ones who encouraged their children to be independent well before late teenage years which is more the case in this era with them being alright with his sister going down to London at 15 to hand out her CV. That is certainly unusual.

And if they both go in after 5pm on the Friday they didn't realise until two hours later he wasn't actually in the house so seems they just let Andrew get up to what he wanted to do outside meal times.

About the only thing I've seen is that his parents tried to get him to visit his grandparents in London but he declined. I've always wondered if that was an attempt to get him out of the house?

 

[TheRockingRev]

Yes I'd love to know if he was always at home during 2007 summer holidays (as we know he was at the gifted camp for a few weeks the previous year). Was he coming home late some days? Perhaps that fateful visit to London wasn't actually the first trip in that period especially with no school to inform in the weeks before?

His parents also seem to be ones who encouraged their children to be independent well before late teenage years which is more the case in this era with them being alright with his sister going down to London at 15 to hand out her CV. That is certainly unusual.

And if they both go in after 5pm on the Friday they didn't realise until two hours later he wasn't actually in the house so seems they just let Andrew get up to what he wanted to do outside meal times.

All so very true. I think there was something mentioned by his sister about how Andrew was at home during the holidays, but of course if she had been there too. It sounds like they were allowed to roam free, so who knows if he'd been out of the house if no-one else was there to see it. As long as he was back by a certain time, no-one would know. And of course on the day he disappeared they thought he was in the house anyway. In those weeks he could've been meeting anyone, and been here, there and everywhere. The thing with the sister and her CV is very odd IMO.

 

[TheRockingRev]

About the only thing I've seen is that his parents tried to get him to visit his grandparents in London but he declined. I've always wondered if that was an attempt to get him out of the house?

We don't seem to get much out of his parents in terms of Andrew's movements in the school holidays, but of course if they weren't there then they wouldn't know. He could've been out and about during the day quite easily as they were, as far as I know, at work.

 

[Inspector Evans]

All so very true. I think there was something mentioned by his sister about how Andrew was at home during the holidays, but of course if she had been there too. It sounds like they were allowed to roam free, so who knows if he'd been out of the house if no-one else was there to see it. As long as he was back by a certain time, no-one would know. And of course on the day he disappeared they thought he was in the house anyway. In those weeks he could've been meeting anyone, and been here, there and everywhere. The thing with the sister and her CV is very odd IMO.

Just seems a hardworking family with perhaps old fashioned values of going out to work at 16-17 if you're not continuing at School or going to university.

Andrew I'm sure would've gone on to Uni being a high grade student and you'd like to think he would've found a sense of belonging there if that was troubling him over summer 2007.

Probably a case of also wanting their children to find summer jobs although why they'd want the sister to go down to London to hand out CVs when Sheffield and York are both 20 minutes away by train from Doncaster is pretty baffling.

 

[Sjöberg]

Probably a case of also wanting their children to find summer jobs although why they'd want the sister to go down to London to hand out CVs when Sheffield and York are both 20 minutes away by train from Doncaster is pretty baffling.

AFAIK, there were grandparents (or at least relatives) living in London. So probably more job options + a free and supervised place for the kid to stay.

 

[ekardh]

If Andrew just wanted to go to London for the day, why didn't he wait until the weekend? Why risk ruining his school record and upsetting his family by bunking off? Apparently, Andrew's parents had let his sister go to London when she was 14, so, theoretically they wouldn't have had a problem with Andrew doing the same. If he was lured to London, then I wonder why the perp picked that Friday, knowing he'd had to convince Andrew to skip school?

If the perp didn't live in London, were they working in London that day? Would be interesting to know if anyone close to the family could be traced there that day, but probably far too late for that.

As ever, nothing but baseless speculation as there's not much to go on in this case. It reminds me of Jason Jolkowski's disappearance in some respects, and I suspect both boys were exploited by older males.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If Andrew just wanted to go to London for the day, why didn't he wait until the weekend? Why risk ruining his school record and upsetting his family by bunking off?

Presumably it was okay by him if he didn't have "perfect attendance" anymore. I don't think he was worried about his family's reaction if they found out once he was already back. Maybe he even thought they wouldn't find out at all.

Whereas if he waited for the weekend, what was he going to do? Lie and pretend to be going somewhere local for all those hours? And hope his family didn't realize the truth? It's easier to "ditch school" than to lie to your parents' faces. The chances of being discovered missing sooner would have been much higher on a weekend.

ETA: Some people think he was probably going to a specific event that day or meeting a specific person. Could also be.

 

[Inspector Evans]

If Andrew just wanted to go to London for the day, why didn't he wait until the weekend? Why risk ruining his school record and upsetting his family by bunking off? Apparently, Andrew's parents had let his sister go to London when she was 14, so, theoretically they wouldn't have had a problem with Andrew doing the same. If he was lured to London, then I wonder why the perp picked that Friday, knowing he'd had to convince Andrew to skip school?

If the perp didn't live in London, were they working in London that day? Would be interesting to know if anyone close to the family could be traced there that day, but probably far too late for that.

As ever, nothing but baseless speculation as there's not much to go on in this case. It reminds me of Jason Jolkowski's disappearance in some respects, and I suspect both boys were exploited by older males.

My hunch has always been an event that Friday. Or very early on the Saturday morning.

You could be right though if he was just meeting up socially with someone a few years older as they'd still have had school or perhaps even University/job to attend to and might not have been around to after 4pm hench that speculative sighting of Andrew alive and well eating Pizza at 1pm which suggests he had time to kill and was enjoying London while he waited.

 

[ekardh]

Whereas if he waited for the weekend, what was he going to do? Lie and pretend to be going somewhere local for all those hours? And hope his family didn't realize the truth? It's easier to "ditch school" than to lie to your parents' faces. The chances of being discovered missing sooner would have been much higher on a weekend.

No, because Andrew wouldn't need to lie about visiting London at the weekend. He might need a cover story for WHY he was going there, if he was meeting up with someone secret, which I strongly suspect was the case.

Some people believe Andrew took his own life. That's not a theory I've ever subscribed to. I don't know if he would travel all the way to a crowded, metropolitan city to end it. There are far more discreet locations between Doncaster and London to leave this world. Not to mention the fact that no remains, clothing or belongings have ever been found. Similarly, I seriously doubt that Andrew run away and has been living under a rock all these years. It's not easy for anyone to start again in the modern world, let alone a sheltered teenager with distinctive features and a highly publicized investigation.

For me, Andrew had a plan that day. It comes down to if he was abducted by someone he planned to meet, or he was targeted randomly whilst touring London. On the balance of probabilities, I lean towards the former. I think someone convinced him to skip school and have some fun. That person abused his trust and took his life. The lack of return ticket suggests to me that Andrew wasn't thinking when he bought a single, or someone had promised him a ride back, which supports the theory that it was someone close to home.

There's also part of me that's uncomfortable with assuming that Andrew took his own life or started again, as it closes off the possibility that he was murdered, and lets a potential perpetrator off the hook.

 

[Innotts]

Personally, I don’t think the family ever saw the church activities as potentially suspicious or as a window for an in-person grooming scenario, but the revelations we got over the years do indicate this could be an avenue worth of exploring. Such as:

The Gosdens are church people; they discovered Andrew hadn’t been to school that Friday not by contacting the school, as most assume, but by calling friends from church who either work or have children in the school;

Andrew’s father said Andrew spent one week of his 2007 summer break (therefore, shortly before he went missing) helping his mother run a church program, and that was allegedly over a year after Andrew decided to stop going to church as well – what could have interested him there? The chance to reconnect with someone? Was he pressured by the family to take up this activity again? How could this have played a role in his emotional state?

The father also said Andrew chose to stop going to church after his older sister, Charlotte, argued with her parents because she did not want to go anymore; he brushes it off in the sense of ‘Charlotte was old enough to decide’, but suggests Andrew only stopped going because he wanted to sleep late on the weekend – so, the girl made an informed decision to quit, but Andrew, in his father’s view, just followed along for no legitimate reasons of his own.

I'm not saying the Kevin didn't say everything he can to the police, but publicly, in any interviews he's granted, he's either never pressured any further or willingly avoids going into this topic or REALLY doesn't see it as something relevant to Andrew's choices that eventually led up to his disappearance. My point is that it could be, we don't know.

Why did he really chose to leave? Why did he went back for an entire week of his summer break, despite being given an opportunity to spend a week with his grandmother in London? Why did acquaintances from the church - and not other connections from school - seem to be the entire of his social circle known by his parents? Those are still valid questions.

Edit to include something I forgot: Plus, Kevin also said that, noticing Andrew was more of a 'home bird', he had told his wife 'give it a year, he'll soon be after girls and we won't ever see him in the house'. Their church involvement and the assumption of Andrew's blooming interest in 'girls', added to their posterior pleas to the media in the case Andrew ran away because he was gay and feared he wouldn't be accepted, do make me wonder about the circumstances that only in hindsight the family could see as harmful to their son.

About the only thing I've seen is that his parents tried to get him to visit his grandparents in London but he declined. I've always wondered if that was an attempt to get him out of the house?

I recall someone posting earlier in the thread that Andrew spent a week helping his mother run a church program during the summer holiday. Found it!

 

[SteveH]

My hunch has always been an event that Friday. Or very early on the Saturday morning.

You could be right though if he was just meeting up socially with someone a few years older as they'd still have had school or perhaps even University/job to attend to and might not have been around to after 4pm hench that speculative sighting of Andrew alive and well eating Pizza at 1pm which suggests he had time to kill and was enjoying London while he waited.

What I can't get my mind around if Andrew was going to a gig or some other event on Friday evening or on Saturday is that he was only wearing a T-shirt. I know he was supposed to be absent minded but heck. It was September - in the UK! It gets chilly at night. He didn't take ANYTHING you would need for an overnight stay - not even his PSP charger.

"Once inside, Andrew put his school uniform in the washing machine and his blazer on the back of his chair before changing into home clothes - a black Slipknot T-shirt and black jeans. He took with him a bag embellished with various patches of rock and metal bands, along with his wallet, keys, and a PlayStation Portable (PSP) console.

He left his passport behind, and according to dad Kevin, he did not appear to have taken a sweatshirt or coat with him, and had also not taken the charger for his PSP. Despite withdrawing £200 in cash from his account, Andrew also left behind around £100 in cash that he had saved from birthdays."

Boy, 14, skipped school, bought a train ticket and was never seen again

Andrew Gosden was just 14 when he bought a one-way ticket to Kings Cross station in London and never came home. Despite numerous reported sightings over the years, his whereabouts remain a mystery

www.mirror.co.uk

But then, if he didn't intend coming back the same day why not get a return ticket, which cost just 50 pence extra? I see some people have suggested that he might have been expecting a lift home, but what if it fell through? Again, was he that naive not to know about the difference between a single and a return? And why did he need £200? Was he hoping to purchase something in London? I know I used to travel to our glorious capital for the day on shopping expeditions (mainly for books and records).

Weather for London 14 September 2007:

https://weatherspark.com/h/d/45062/2007/9/14/Historical-Weather-on-Friday-September-14-2007-in-London-United-Kingdom#Figures-Temperature

On a sidenote I can't see Slipknot as a "goth" band. As someone who went to gigs in the '70s and '80s by the likes of Joy Division, the Cure, Nico, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, the Cramps etc, Slipknot seem to me like a bunch of souped-up sub-Kiss glam/metal shock-rock reactionaries. But maybe I'm an old musical snob. Gimme the Beastie Boys, who I saw in 1987 - hydraulic giant phallus and all - any day. You gotta fight for your right...to party!

 

[OceanElix]

What I can't get my mind around if Andrew was going to a gig or some other event on Friday evening or on Saturday is that he was only wearing a T-shirt. I know he was supposed to be absent minded but heck. It was September - in the UK! It gets chilly at night. He didn't take ANYTHING you would need for an overnight stay - not even his PSP charger.

"Once inside, Andrew put his school uniform in the washing machine and his blazer on the back of his chair before changing into home clothes - a black Slipknot T-shirt and black jeans. He took with him a bag embellished with various patches of rock and metal bands, along with his wallet, keys, and a PlayStation Portable (PSP) console.

He left his passport behind, and according to dad Kevin, he did not appear to have taken a sweatshirt or coat with him, and had also not taken the charger for his PSP. Despite withdrawing £200 in cash from his account, Andrew also left behind around £100 in cash that he had saved from birthdays."

Boy, 14, skipped school, bought a train ticket and was never seen again

Andrew Gosden was just 14 when he bought a one-way ticket to Kings Cross station in London and never came home. Despite numerous reported sightings over the years, his whereabouts remain a mystery

www.mirror.co.uk

But then, if he didn't intend coming back the same day why not get a return ticket, which cost just 50 pence extra? I see some people have suggested that he might have been expecting a lift home, but what if it fell through? Again, was he that naive not to know about the difference between a single and a return? And why did he need £200? Was he hoping to purchase something in London? I know I used to travel to our glorious capital for the day on shopping expeditions (mainly for books and records).

Weather for London 14 September 2007:

https://weatherspark.com/h/d/45062/2007/9/14/Historical-Weather-on-Friday-September-14-2007-in-London-United-Kingdom#Figures-Temperature

On a sidenote I can't see Slipknot as a "goth" band. As someone who went to gigs in the '70s and '80s by the likes of Joy Division, the Cure, Nico, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, the Cramps etc, Slipknot seem to me like a bunch of souped-up sub-Kiss glam/metal shock-rock reactionaries. But maybe I'm an old musical snob. Gimme the Beastie Boys, who I saw in 1987 - hydraulic giant phallus and all - any day. You gotta fight for your right...to party!

Slipknot was considered goth back then.

The weather in September and even well into October can often be mild. The link you shared shows on that particular date, the evening temperatures were still relatively mild.
In any case we can’t be certain that Andrew wasn’t carrying a jumper or a change of clothes. How confident can any parent really be about exactly which items their child has taken with them, unless finances are tight and clothing is limited? It seems unlikely that anyone could be 100% sure whether a few pieces were missing.

The money left in his bedroom always made me think that Andrew intentionally left it behind so as not to raise concern/prompt questions if he returned home later than expected.
I do believe he meant to return home, but the fact that he didn’t take the return ticket has always puzzled me - I always wondered about the accurate recollection of the lady at the ticket office. I may be forgetting, was there a record proving Andrew definitely only purchased a single ticket or was this based on the ticket office recollection?

Moo

 

[Inspector Evans]

Many people who go to gigs often turn up in t shirts for all parts of the year. Others will come in coats and quickly take them off by the box office cloak room as gets hot and sweaty if you're by the mosh pit.

However majority will be coming from quite close by and not hundreds of miles away as Andrew was. Whatever he was doing or whatever his plans he must surely have been certain he'd have been spending the evening/night somewhere warm just to be in a t shirt.

From the CCTV didn't he had a small bag over his shoulder or am I imaging that? If he did it is possible he had a small hoody in there although from the above his Dad claims all of that attire remained in his bedroom.

As with so many elements of this case it is another bizarre quirk with no logical reason.

 

[davidt]

I recall someone posting earlier in the thread that Andrew spent a week helping his mother run a church program during the summer holiday. Found it!

Yes I'd forgotten that. It's something else where I wonder if his mother pushed him to do it or whether he genuinely volunteered. It does sound like something his mother may have encouraged him to do.

 

[FaerieDust]

What I can't get my mind around if Andrew was going to a gig or some other event on Friday evening or on Saturday is that he was only wearing a T-shirt. I know he was supposed to be absent minded but heck. It was September - in the UK! It gets chilly at night. He didn't take ANYTHING you would need for an overnight stay - not even his PSP charger.

"Once inside, Andrew put his school uniform in the washing machine and his blazer on the back of his chair before changing into home clothes - a black Slipknot T-shirt and black jeans. He took with him a bag embellished with various patches of rock and metal bands, along with his wallet, keys, and a PlayStation Portable (PSP) console.

He left his passport behind, and according to dad Kevin, he did not appear to have taken a sweatshirt or coat with him, and had also not taken the charger for his PSP. Despite withdrawing £200 in cash from his account, Andrew also left behind around £100 in cash that he had saved from birthdays."

Boy, 14, skipped school, bought a train ticket and was never seen again

Andrew Gosden was just 14 when he bought a one-way ticket to Kings Cross station in London and never came home. Despite numerous reported sightings over the years, his whereabouts remain a mystery

www.mirror.co.uk

But then, if he didn't intend coming back the same day why not get a return ticket, which cost just 50 pence extra? I see some people have suggested that he might have been expecting a lift home, but what if it fell through? Again, was he that naive not to know about the difference between a single and a return? And why did he need £200? Was he hoping to purchase something in London? I know I used to travel to our glorious capital for the day on shopping expeditions (mainly for books and records).

Weather for London 14 September 2007:

https://weatherspark.com/h/d/45062/2007/9/14/Historical-Weather-on-Friday-September-14-2007-in-London-United-Kingdom#Figures-Temperature

On a sidenote I can't see Slipknot as a "goth" band. As someone who went to gigs in the '70s and '80s by the likes of Joy Division, the Cure, Nico, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, the Cramps etc, Slipknot seem to me like a bunch of souped-up sub-Kiss glam/metal shock-rock reactionaries. But maybe I'm an old musical snob. Gimme the Beastie Boys, who I saw in 1987 - hydraulic giant phallus and all - any day. You gotta fight for your right...to party!

You're right, Slipknot aren't a goth band, they're a nu-metal band. Back in the early 00s there was confusion in the media (and therefore, most people) between goth - as you said which encompasses Post-punk, Goth Rock & Darkwave, etc and what was dubbed 'Mall-goth' in America - this is basically what we in the UK called Greebos/Moshers, (and later, Emos) but also got shoved under the 'goth' umbrella due to the American name and visual similarity in aesthetics. The Wikipedia page I just linked defines it as "Goth for fashion rather than culture". Generally Mall-Goths/Greebos/Moshers listened to Slipknot, System of a Down, Limp Bizkit, Korn, Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, Deftones, Kittie, any and all nu-metal and also grunge bands like Nirvana, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. Here's a couple of articles on Greebos/Moshers in the UK if you're interested. Also, crucially, many were too young to attend club nights where the older goths like you were talking about would be going on a saturday night, but could get into gigs and festivals as long as they looked 16.

Generally Greebos/Moshers/Mall-Goths wore baggy jeans, band t shirts, had grown out hairstyles and often dyed their hair black. Mostly they looked similar to Goths but with less back combing and crimping and more hair straightening. Inspiration being less Siouxsie and the Banshees and more Murderdolls. Funnily enough I would likely be called a gatekeeper for this lecture by a lot of Mall Goths though, because since there's societal stigma about 'goths', that increases the desire to be labelled as one.

(I used to be a Greebo/Mosher/Mall-Goth and later moved into the Goth subculture because I discovered I love Joy Division, the Cure, Sisters of Mercy, etc when I got to university and got to go to actual goth nights and events. When I was young I didn't accept any label except 'alternative' though)