GUILTY UK - Arrest in 1987 'Bedsit Murders' of Wendy Knell, 25, and Caroline Pierce, 20, in Kent

[Dotta]

As someone who has provided input on what is "youthful folly" from criminal conduct when employing people in the NHS I can clearly say that a conviction for burglary is too serious to ever be discounted.

Getting caught stealing sweets as a fourteen year old and receiving a police caution or possession of a small amount of drugs for personal use as a seventeen year old may be not be a bar to employment in the NHS but sufficient time will needed to have passed to demonstrate no further criminal conduct and significantly greater maturity.

Those who have access to patients, patient records, drugs and mortuaries should require an enhanced DBS check, which is out of date the minute after it is checked!

What does not happen is that anyone with employment requiring criminal record checks should be on a national database so that the employer is automatically informed if they are arrested or come to police notice where there is concern of risk.

I absolutely agree
I was just scratching my head - why was he allowed to continue working there????

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

One thing that never seems to be mentioned is that the weather in Tunbridge Wells on the 22/23 June was appalling. It had rained nearly the entire day on both days (both Wimbledon & the Lords Test March were washed out that day). I’m assuming Fuller must have been soaked but had decided that weekend to go prowling on Monday despite the weather. I assume his wife was at work that evening.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I find it hard to believe that he did not commit other crimes before the bedsit murders though? If not previous murders then rapes/sexual assaults

My thoughts are that he will have continued with burglary and voyeurism and became very efficient after learning from his previous errors. Donald Nielson (Black Panther) committed thousands of burglaries and was never caught for them, as he was a meticulous planner with military training.

I don't think sexual assault/rape with living victims was DF's MO or desire. He needed the control and lack of critical judgement he got from those who were dead to act out his fantasies.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I absolutely agree
I was just scratching my head - why was he allowed to continue working there????

Each NHS Trust do their own thing, often without the understanding or experience to make sound decisions.

There should be national NHS pre-employment vetting procedures and periodic renewals. It should not be left to individual NHS Trusts to interpret how they wish.

It would seem that the NHS Trust involved will be shelling out millions for their inaction, which had terrible consequences for so many families. JMOO.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

One thing that never seems to be mentioned is that the weather in Tunbridge Wells on the 22/23 June was appalling. It had rained nearly the entire day on both days (both Wimbledon & the Lords Test March were washed out that day). I’m assuming Fuller must have been soaked but had decided that weekend to go prowling on Monday despite the weather. I assume his wife was at work that evening.

His wife being at work or out elsewhere that evening may be the very reason that DF went.

Also there tend to be fewer people about when the weather is bad. JMOO.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

+If I am correct Fuller was only caught because his brother commited a crime and his DNA was uploaded to the criminal data base? What are the chances of that after so many years! I believe his brother was older than him too. Had this not happened Fuller would still be a free man. Scary !!

As DNA techniques advanced since the original murders, the forensic scientists were able to obtain a full profile of the offender for Wendy's murder.

There was local voluntary DNA screening, in the same way as the Colin Pitchfork murders, but they all drew negative results.

With a full DNA profile of the offender and advances in DNA forensics a comparison was run on the National DNA database for offenders whose DNA had certain key characteristics.

There were about 1000 results, these were prioritised into the top 90 and police started approaching these people for voluntary DNA samples. One of the first 20 samples came back with a close familial match (father, son or brother). It was from this that police identified DF as the likely offender and arrested him. A DNA sample in custody subsequently confirmed a DNA match between DF and the killer of Wendy and later Caroline.

For DF's relative to be on the National DNA database he would either have previously been arrested for a recordable offence or was a police officer (less likely), whose DNA was on the database for elimination purposes at crime scenes.

 

[jackal67]

As DNA techniques advanced since the original murders, the forensic scientists were able to obtain a full profile of the offender for Wendy's murder.

There was local voluntary DNA screening, in the same way as the Colin Pitchfork murders, but they all drew negative results.

With a full DNA profile of the offender and advances in DNA forensics a comparison was run on the National DNA database for offenders whose DNA had certain key characteristics.

There were about 1000 results, these were prioritised into the top 90 and police started approaching these people for voluntary DNA samples. One of the first 20 samples came back with a close familial match (father, son or brother). It was from this that police identified DF as the likely offender and arrested him. A DNA sample in custody subsequently confirmed a DNA match between DF and the killer of Wendy and later Caroline.

For DF's relative to be on the National DNA database he would either have previously been arrested for a recordable offence or was a police officer (less likely), whose DNA was on the database for elimination purposes at crime scenes.

 

[jackal67]

What would count as a recordable offence? His relatives DNA must have been added only recently or it would have flagged up before surely? I believe police had a full DNA profile for Wendys killer for quite a while before Fullers arrest?
Just checked they had it since 2012.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

What would count as a recordable offence? His relatives DNA must have been added only recently or it would have flagged up before surely? I believe police had a full DNA profile for Wendys killer for quite a while before Fullers arrest?

All criminal offences are recordable, i.e. the police must maintain a PNC record of the caution or conviction, often with DNA, fingerprints, photo and antecedents. Getting a parking ticket on a double yellow line or driving in a bus lane aren't as they are non-endorsable (no points) traffic offences.

The relatives DNA may have been added some years previously. The advance in DNA forensics was required to enable a comparison with other samples and to identify a familial link.

When someone is arrested they have to provide DNA which is then subject to a speculative search of the National DNA Database for matches with DNA recovered from reported crimes.

At present the speculative search seeks full matches, not familial ones as the process is more complex. A familial search would require a specific request with justification based on the seriousness of the offence and necessity before other avenues of investigation have proved unsuccessful.

It is a complex area of science that is constantly developing and I cannot do it justice as I am not a forensic scientist.

We have gone from requiring a crime scene sample the size of a 50p to obtain a DNA sample to minute amounts which can provide a full profile.

 

[jackal67]

All criminal offences are recordable, i.e. the police must maintain a PNC record of the caution or conviction, along with DNA, fingerprints, photo and antecedents. Getting a parking ticket on a double yellow line or driving in a bus lane aren't as they are non-endorsable (no points) traffic offences.

The relatives DNA may have been added some years previously. The advance in DNA forensics was required to enable a comparison with other samples and to identify a familial link.

It is a complex area of science that is constantly developing and I cannot do it justice as I am not a forensic scientist.

We have gone from requiring a crime scene sample the size of a 50p to obtain a DNA sample to minute amounts which can provide a full profile.

Interesting. Thank you

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

What would count as a recordable offence? His relatives DNA must have been added only recently or it would have flagged up before surely? I believe police had a full DNA profile for Wendys killer for quite a while before Fullers arrest?
Just checked they had it since 2012.

They had a full DNA profile as far back as 2007 DNA gives police new lead on murders 20 years ago

2007 CrimeWatch appeal

Starts at 40:33

I suspect Fuller's brother may have been recently busted for something like drink driving? However, his DNA was a recent addition to the national database and he apparently then provided another DNA specimen to police. Makes me wonder if DF was aware of that?

 

[Dotta]

David Fuller: Independent inquiry announced into mortuary abuse

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

The photofit may have given DF a sense of security in knowing he looked nothing like the photofit.....or
has he ever had dark hair and a moustache?

In the photo with the bike, DF looks tall, lean and athletic. He was probably physically quite strong and agile at that time. JMOO.

He did have dark hair, some of the photos look a little misleading as his hair is lighter. But in one photo, where he's using an upper body fitness device and wearing the same Clarks trainers which left a shoe print at Knell's murder scene, his hair is quite dark but no side-boards or a moustache like the photofit. Also, it looks the 1980s Fuller had more head and face real estate with his eye, nose and mouth looking all rather close in the centre of his face, certainly quite a slap-head from a receding hairline - in many of those photos he looks in denial with regards to male pattern balding.

What I did notice is that the 2007 appeals were the last time Kent Police used that photo-fit. Subsequent appeals, as far as I know, did not include the photo-fit. Maybe they eliminated whoever it was from the investigation and shortly after 2007?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

They had a full DNA profile as far back as 2007 DNA gives police new lead on murders 20 years ago

2007 CrimeWatch appeal

Starts at 40:33

I suspect Fuller's brother may have been recently busted for something like drink driving? However, his DNA was a recent addition to the national database and he apparently then provided another DNA specimen to police. Makes me wonder if DF was aware of that?

It's a complex process and costly.

Cold case review periods may have led to an unfortunate delay in the familial DNA process being approved and advanced.

This is an excellent article, which explains many aspects.

How familial DNA trapped a murderer for the first time

 

[Whitehall 1212]

What I did notice is that the 2007 appeals were the last time Kent Police used that photo-fit. Subsequent appeals, as far as I know, did not include the photo-fit. Maybe they eliminated whoever it was from the investigation and shortly after 2007?

Either they identified the caller

OR

more likely the passage of time, made the image outdated and in all likelihood it was diverting people's attention away from other suspects.....hence dropping it.

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I absolutely agree
I was just scratching my head - why was he allowed to continue working there????

I wonder who sponsored the DBS check, was it the NHS or Interserve? During 2015, when the check was done, we was working for Interserve which would be the PFI contractor for the hospital. They may not have informed the NHS or the "decision" was down to an NHS manager or Interserve manager who probably thought DF had learned his lessons from the past...even though he had lied about not having a criminal record.

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

Well, now with lawsuits looming - who will pay I wonder?
Taxpayers I guess as NHS is public.

Interserve and Mitie for those crimes during the PFI Hospital era. Before that I'd say the NHS.

Either way, the taxpayer will foot the bill.

The two companies I've mentioned are in the public domain about this case, so it's no secret.

EDIT: the point of the PFI contractors is to handle the day to day running of the hospital, literally taking it out of the hands of the taxpayer public services and leaving the NHS to just deal with doctors and nurses.

 

[Dotta]

I wonder who sponsored the DBS check, was it the NHS or Interserve? During 2015, when the check was done, we was working for Interserve which would be the PFI contractor for the hospital. They may not have informed the NHS or the "decision" was down to an NHS manager or Interserve manager who probably thought DF had learned his lessons from the past...even though he had lied about not having a criminal record.

I have no idea what DBS, Interserve or PFI are haha - I live in another country
But heads should roll - just to make an example for others!

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I have no idea what DBS, Interserve or PFI are haha - I live in another country
But heads should roll - just to make an example for others!

DBS is basically the criminal record check in the UK. PFI is the Private Finance Initiative where private finance vehicles (aka banks) built schools and hospitals for the then Labour Govt back in 2000 and up to 2010 when a lot of it got cancelled because it was costing the taxpayer a fortune.

However, lots of schools and hospitals were built and all that mattered was optics. The NHS would "rent" the hospitals for a 30 year period. However, where there's a new hospital, there was an old hospital and most of the non medical staff would have been transferred to the PFI provider back in 2000-ish and before the new hospital was built, in DF's case it was Interserve who were one of the big players back in the PFI days.

In other words, in the UK, non medical staff in the NHS don't work for the NHS, they work for a PFI contractor.

In my opinion, the NHS is on the hook for Fuller up to a certain point in time when he was transferred to Interserve. After that, the PFI provider, Interserve and now Mitie, are in my opinion on the hook for his hospital antics. It is they who are responsible for security, non medical staff, facilities management and not the NHS.

EDIT: just to add, I worked for a PFI contractor 2007 - 2010 and at a huge hospital too. Accountants ruled the roost at such places and everything was driven by "how much does it cost" and "how much can we overcharge the NHS". Wouldn't surprise me if it were deemed too costly for the PFI contractor to get rid of DF and that's why he got away with having a criminal record.

 

[Dotta]

DBS is basically the criminal record check in the UK. PFI is the Private Finance Initiative where private finance vehicles (aka banks) built schools and hospitals for the then Labour Govt back in 2000 and up to 2010 when a lot of it got cancelled because it was costing the taxpayer a fortune.

However, lots of schools and hospitals were built and all that mattered was optics. The NHS would "rent" the hospitals for a 30 year period. However, where there's a new hospital, there was an old hospital and most of the non medical staff would have been transferred to the PFI provider back in 2000-ish and before the new hospital was built, in DF's case it was Interserve who were one of the big players back in the PFI days.

In other words, in the UK, non medical staff in the NHS don't work for the NHS, they work for a PFI contractor.

In my opinion, the NHS is on the hook for Fuller up to a certain point in time when he was transferred to Interserve. After that, the PFI provider, Interserve and now Mitie, are in my opinion on the hook for his hospital antics. It is they who are responsible for security, non medical staff, facilities management and not the NHS.