Dreamt last night that I was sitting at a dinner table with Arthur and I was showing him a christmas snow globe and shaking it for him. I’ve probably given that kid more care and attention in a dream than Tustin ever gave him in real life.
UK - Arthur Labinjo Hughes, 6, killed, dad & friend arrested, June 2020
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I think it plays out as - you can smack/slap as long as it does not leave a mark and as long as it’s not a regular and repetitive action. If marks are produced, depending on the severity it starts escalating from cruelty, assault, ABH, wounding, GBH etc…
I think the reasonable part is there in cases like, your child attempts to run out into a busy road and you grab them to stop them. You leave a grip mark or bruise. That would be reasonable in that situation.
The whole smacking children to “teach them” doesn’t sit right with me at all. How many times have you been cut off by someone not using their indicator for example? How many times have you decided “I’m going to teach you!!” and decided to give them a smack? Chances are never. And if you did, you would be charged with common assault.
No child should ever live in fear. No adult should ever intimidate a child. Unfortunately it happens a lot and there really does need to be some sort of revision of the laws. This case being an example, TH defence is that he was using “discipline” but it went “too far….”
I agree with all of this. IMO there’s a difference between say smacking your child’s hand away because they go to touch something hot and smacking them to the face for misbehaving.
I’ve been smacked - slapped in the face by family members, during arguments. Even if it doesn’t leave physical marks, it leaves psychological ones. I’m the type of parent that worries I’m going to accidentally hurt my kids like when their wriggling around while I’m trying to dress them. So I definitely can’t wrap my head around this kind of “discipline”.
Precisely this! In the case of running out into a road, or going to touch something thats hot, you’re left with no other alternative. It’s the lesser of two dangers. Therefore it’s reasonable. It’s rather instinctual, kind of like a reflex, you don’t think about it, you’re just stopping them from a threat. Now deciding to just grab/smack your child because they’ve backchatted you or because of some perceived slight, that’s not protective or instinctual. That’s a choice….
Ahhh I’m sorry to hear that
. I can totally relate to things lasting psychologically though, just a different set of circumstances to yourself. I used to be like you, anxious about even minor things (putting vests on a newborn used to set my anxiety off, I was certain there was no way that their arms could be manipulated like that) until I had my 2nd child. That one, was an absolute whirlwind and risk taker and believe it or not, it was his ability to bounce back that made me less fearful of irrational things, namely the bloody baby vests
.Day 31 of trial begins
Good morning.
Today is day 31 of the trial. The proceedings are back underway.
Mary Prior, defending Tustin, continues to cross-examine Hughes.
10:25TONY LARNER
Dad claims Arthur 'obsessed with soft toys'
Hughes confirms by the end of 2019 he had no concerns about Arthur's behaviour, but did have concerns about 'some of the things he had said'.
He states Arthur's school never had concerns about Arthur's behaviour while he was there.
Ms Prior asks why Hughes told the GP in January that Arthur was obsessed with soft toys.
Hughes: "There was an incident before Christmas. Arthur's class had a class mascot, a teddy bear. I was told Arthur had become obsessed with it, tried talking to the teddy bear. When it was not his turn to take it home he got upset by that scenario."
Ms Prior: "You have just made that up haven't you?"
Hughes: "Not at all."
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he was concerned with Arthur cuddling soft toys, but the school was not.
Hughes denies that was the case.
10:32TONY LARNER
Arthur was having nightmares
Ms Prior asks Hughes why he told the GP Aryhur had become 'clingy' to school staff.
Hughes: "Arthur became comfortable with a member of staff and he would often speak to her quite a bit. He was fond of her."
He accepts that does not necessarily mean he was 'clingy'.
Hughes confirms he also told the GP Arthur was having nightmares and saying nobody loved him.
Ms Prior states he told the GP Arthur was also anxious of Hughes hurting him and had given an example of Arthur hurting his hand and not wanting Hughes to treat it.
Hughes: "It was a splinter. He wouldn't let anyone near it."
Ms Prior: "He wouldn't let you touch him by January would he?"
Hughes denies that was the case.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Good morning.
Today is day 31 of the trial. The proceedings are back underway.
Mary Prior, defending Tustin, continues to cross-examine Hughes.
10:25TONY LARNER
Dad claims Arthur 'obsessed with soft toys'
Hughes confirms by the end of 2019 he had no concerns about Arthur's behaviour, but did have concerns about 'some of the things he had said'.
He states Arthur's school never had concerns about Arthur's behaviour while he was there.
Ms Prior asks why Hughes told the GP in January that Arthur was obsessed with soft toys.
Hughes: "There was an incident before Christmas. Arthur's class had a class mascot, a teddy bear. I was told Arthur had become obsessed with it, tried talking to the teddy bear. When it was not his turn to take it home he got upset by that scenario."
Ms Prior: "You have just made that up haven't you?"
Hughes: "Not at all."
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he was concerned with Arthur cuddling soft toys, but the school was not.
Hughes denies that was the case.
10:32TONY LARNER
Arthur was having nightmares
Ms Prior asks Hughes why he told the GP Aryhur had become 'clingy' to school staff.
Hughes: "Arthur became comfortable with a member of staff and he would often speak to her quite a bit. He was fond of her."
He accepts that does not necessarily mean he was 'clingy'.
Hughes confirms he also told the GP Arthur was having nightmares and saying nobody loved him.
Ms Prior states he told the GP Arthur was also anxious of Hughes hurting him and had given an example of Arthur hurting his hand and not wanting Hughes to treat it.
Hughes: "It was a splinter. He wouldn't let anyone near it."
Ms Prior: "He wouldn't let you touch him by January would he?"
Hughes denies that was the case.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
10:38TONY LARNER
'I was concerned about those behaviours'
Ms Prior: "You were concerned Arthur was acting younger than his years, his behaviour, soft toys, clinginess, like a baby or a toddler."
Hughes: "I wasn't concerned he was behaving like a baby, I was concerned about those behaviours because I hadn't experienced those with Arthur before."
Ms Prior asks if Arthur was the focus of his attention by late 2019 / early 2020.
Hughes: "I think he was but because Emma's children were involved by this point I tried to involve them at this point."
10:52TONY LARNER
'It was my idea to have a chair, not a pink one'
Ms Prior turns to the topic of the 'thinking step' and puts it to Hughes it was his idea to purchase a pink chair.
Hughes: "It was my idea to have a chair, not a pink one."
He states the shop only had a pink chair and it was a 'joint decision' between himself and Tustin to buy it.
Ms Prior puts it to him he deliberately purchased a pink chair so Arthur would not want to sit on it 'because it was for girls'.
Hughes denies that is true.
Ms Prior: "What you are trying to do is re-write your relationship with Emma so every decision you made was made by her."
Hughes: "No. Not at all."
Ms Prior: "What you want is to show her in the worst light possible."
Hughes: "Not at all."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
'I was concerned about those behaviours'
Ms Prior: "You were concerned Arthur was acting younger than his years, his behaviour, soft toys, clinginess, like a baby or a toddler."
Hughes: "I wasn't concerned he was behaving like a baby, I was concerned about those behaviours because I hadn't experienced those with Arthur before."
Ms Prior asks if Arthur was the focus of his attention by late 2019 / early 2020.
Hughes: "I think he was but because Emma's children were involved by this point I tried to involve them at this point."
10:52TONY LARNER
'It was my idea to have a chair, not a pink one'
Ms Prior turns to the topic of the 'thinking step' and puts it to Hughes it was his idea to purchase a pink chair.
Hughes: "It was my idea to have a chair, not a pink one."
He states the shop only had a pink chair and it was a 'joint decision' between himself and Tustin to buy it.
Ms Prior puts it to him he deliberately purchased a pink chair so Arthur would not want to sit on it 'because it was for girls'.
Hughes denies that is true.
Ms Prior: "What you are trying to do is re-write your relationship with Emma so every decision you made was made by her."
Hughes: "No. Not at all."
Ms Prior: "What you want is to show her in the worst light possible."
Hughes: "Not at all."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
10:54TONY LARNER
Prison van conversation audio played
Part of the prison van conversation audio is played to the court.
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he agreed with Tustin that he picked up a different colour chair and then bought a pink one.
Hughes: "I agree with a lot of things in that van, yeah."
Ms Prior asks how things were between Hughes and Arthur at the beginning of March 2020.
Hughes: "They wasn't as good as what they previously were. Arthur's behaviour was still in the stages as has been described."
He adds: "He liked routine. If I was not back from work at certain times he would panic. He liked to know what was happening that day. Like to have a plan, if you like."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Prison van conversation audio played
Part of the prison van conversation audio is played to the court.
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he agreed with Tustin that he picked up a different colour chair and then bought a pink one.
Hughes: "I agree with a lot of things in that van, yeah."
Ms Prior asks how things were between Hughes and Arthur at the beginning of March 2020.
Hughes: "They wasn't as good as what they previously were. Arthur's behaviour was still in the stages as has been described."
He adds: "He liked routine. If I was not back from work at certain times he would panic. He liked to know what was happening that day. Like to have a plan, if you like."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Arthurs fears are very understandable given what he’d been through. All kids need routine and security. Arthurs life got turned upside down by his mum going to prison, of course he’d panic if his dad wasn’t back in time.
11:09TONY LARNER
Hughes advised to have 'memory box' for Arthur
Ms Prior asks about Hughes' and Arthur's visit to a court welfare officer (Children and family court advisory and support service - Cafcass) on March 4.
She states Hughes was advised to have a 'memory box' for Arthur including old photographs of his mother Olivia Labinjo-Hughes and some toys he used to play with at her house. Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he did not go ahead with the memory box afterwards.
Hughes: "It was if Arthur wanted to do it. At that stage he was unsure about his mom."
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he was against Arthur having direct or indirect contact with Olivia.
Hughes says he was against direct contact but not indirect contact. He adds that previously he had been against all forms of contact.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Hughes advised to have 'memory box' for Arthur
Ms Prior asks about Hughes' and Arthur's visit to a court welfare officer (Children and family court advisory and support service - Cafcass) on March 4.
She states Hughes was advised to have a 'memory box' for Arthur including old photographs of his mother Olivia Labinjo-Hughes and some toys he used to play with at her house. Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he did not go ahead with the memory box afterwards.
Hughes: "It was if Arthur wanted to do it. At that stage he was unsure about his mom."
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes he was against Arthur having direct or indirect contact with Olivia.
Hughes says he was against direct contact but not indirect contact. He adds that previously he had been against all forms of contact.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
11:27TONY LARNER
'Arthur took the brunt of my frustrations'
Ms Prior asks about Hughes' first police interview, which took place before the van conversation with Tustin.
She asks about him saying he could not hit Tustin, because she was a woman, so 'Arthur took the brunt of my frustrations'.
Ms Prior asks if that is true. Hughes: "Yeah. He did take the brunt of my frustrations unfairly. Yes."
Ms Prior asks about another part of the interview.
Hughes confirms he told officers there was a 'clash of egos' between him and Arthur.
He says he understood Arthur to have said he wanted to kill him but denies Arthur said it to his face.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
'Arthur took the brunt of my frustrations'
Ms Prior asks about Hughes' first police interview, which took place before the van conversation with Tustin.
She asks about him saying he could not hit Tustin, because she was a woman, so 'Arthur took the brunt of my frustrations'.
Ms Prior asks if that is true. Hughes: "Yeah. He did take the brunt of my frustrations unfairly. Yes."
Ms Prior asks about another part of the interview.
Hughes confirms he told officers there was a 'clash of egos' between him and Arthur.
He says he understood Arthur to have said he wanted to kill him but denies Arthur said it to his face.
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
11:31TONY LARNER
'Hughes took Arthur's favourite teddy bear away'
Ms Prior asks about an incident in mid-March where Hughes took Arthur's favourite Elmo teddy bear away, which made him upset.
She puts it to him that the school advised him to give the teddy back to Arthur but he did not. Ms Prior states the teddy was found in a bin liner in the loft by the police.
Hughes tells the court he thinks he gave the teddy back at one point only for it to be taken off Arthur again.
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes again that he did not like Arthur acting younger than he was.
"You didn't want to be embarrassed by him acting like a baby when he was out and about," she states.
Hughes: "It didn't bother me, it was not the best thing but not the worst thing he could have done."
Ms Prior: "You don't like anyone criticising your parenting do you?"
Hughes: "If an opinion was offered I would listen. I didn't always take them."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
'Hughes took Arthur's favourite teddy bear away'
Ms Prior asks about an incident in mid-March where Hughes took Arthur's favourite Elmo teddy bear away, which made him upset.
She puts it to him that the school advised him to give the teddy back to Arthur but he did not. Ms Prior states the teddy was found in a bin liner in the loft by the police.
Hughes tells the court he thinks he gave the teddy back at one point only for it to be taken off Arthur again.
Ms Prior puts it to Hughes again that he did not like Arthur acting younger than he was.
"You didn't want to be embarrassed by him acting like a baby when he was out and about," she states.
Hughes: "It didn't bother me, it was not the best thing but not the worst thing he could have done."
Ms Prior: "You don't like anyone criticising your parenting do you?"
Hughes: "If an opinion was offered I would listen. I didn't always take them."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Can either of you guys take over around 12:30 please? I have a dentist appointment that I’ve been putting off for weeks
@Tortoise @SpursGyal
@Tortoise @SpursGyal
11:40TONY LARNER
'She made you look small in front of Emma'
Hughes states he thought moving Arthur into Tustin's home was in his 'best interests' when lockdown was announced on March 23.
Ms Prior asks how he 'could have possibly thought' that in the circumstances.
Hughes: "He would be around children who had similar interests to him. Play together. It was another friend, part of the family. I thought it would be good for Arthur for those reasons.
"A stable family unit rather than people, Emma going home on the Sunday and see him throughout the week. I thought it would have been a progression for Arthur."
Ms Prior: "Was this just spite towards your mother for her ringing you up and telling you to come home?"
Hughes: "No."
Ms Prior: "She made you look small in front of Emma. You didn't like being made to feel small did you?"
Hughes: "No. It wasn't because of that."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
'She made you look small in front of Emma'
Hughes states he thought moving Arthur into Tustin's home was in his 'best interests' when lockdown was announced on March 23.
Ms Prior asks how he 'could have possibly thought' that in the circumstances.
Hughes: "He would be around children who had similar interests to him. Play together. It was another friend, part of the family. I thought it would be good for Arthur for those reasons.
"A stable family unit rather than people, Emma going home on the Sunday and see him throughout the week. I thought it would have been a progression for Arthur."
Ms Prior: "Was this just spite towards your mother for her ringing you up and telling you to come home?"
Hughes: "No."
Ms Prior: "She made you look small in front of Emma. You didn't like being made to feel small did you?"
Hughes: "No. It wasn't because of that."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
They were a tandem.
11:50TONY LARNER
'I was against the engagement'
Hughes says he had Arthur's bedding, his Elmo teddy and a few toys when he moved into Tustin's home, adding he did not expect the lockdown to be announced.
Ms Prior asks if Arthur was 'spiteful' to Tustin on Mother's Day, March 22, that year.
Hughes: "He was upset. I don't think he was spiteful."
Ms Prior puts it to him he has 'made up' the account of Arthur wanting to make Tustin tea and toast that morning and Tustin refusing because of his previous behaviour.
Hughes says he 'didn't put that bit in' his police interview but it is what happened.
Ms Prior states it 'did not make logical sense' to move in Tustin's home during lockdown.
She asks if Tustin 'forced' him to move in.
Hughes: "We had planned to move in together. It was the next stage in our relationship, the next progression. I thought it would be good for Arthur and for her children."
Ms Prior: "You didn't want to get engaged but wanted to live with her?"
Hughes: "I was against the engagement. But when it happened I went with it."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
'I was against the engagement'
Hughes says he had Arthur's bedding, his Elmo teddy and a few toys when he moved into Tustin's home, adding he did not expect the lockdown to be announced.
Ms Prior asks if Arthur was 'spiteful' to Tustin on Mother's Day, March 22, that year.
Hughes: "He was upset. I don't think he was spiteful."
Ms Prior puts it to him he has 'made up' the account of Arthur wanting to make Tustin tea and toast that morning and Tustin refusing because of his previous behaviour.
Hughes says he 'didn't put that bit in' his police interview but it is what happened.
Ms Prior states it 'did not make logical sense' to move in Tustin's home during lockdown.
She asks if Tustin 'forced' him to move in.
Hughes: "We had planned to move in together. It was the next stage in our relationship, the next progression. I thought it would be good for Arthur and for her children."
Ms Prior: "You didn't want to get engaged but wanted to live with her?"
Hughes: "I was against the engagement. But when it happened I went with it."
Murder trial over death of boy, six, resumes after covid alert - updates
Carroll520
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Yep i agree, he is nearly worse, as he was his own flesh and blood.
I'm happy to do them unless @SpursGyal wants to?
Haha That was a good jibe!
Exactly. It’s not discipline because it doesn’t teach anything other than “when my parents don’t like something I do, they hurt me”. It’s just punishment without actually addressing the behaviour and what is causing it. It’s humiliating and breaks trust massively. Kids deserve to be listened to and they are not stupid, if you explain to them what they did wrong and why you don’t want them to do that it’s always going to be more effective than just being angry and smacking them.
My parents never really spanked me and now that I’m grown I can say that I turned out fine.
Dad always tells me the story of when I was very little, like 3 years old, he was reprimanding me about something and for the first time he gave me a soft spank on my bum to drive the message home. Apparently all hell broke loose and I was just crying my eyes out and so so upset that he freaked out and never did it again. He was also a pretty young dad (must’ve been 27 at that time) but understood that even if it didn’t physically hurt, that breach of trust, someone you love showing violence towards you, was enough to freak me out and fear isn’t a good way to teach a lesson.
SpursGyal
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I don’t mind. I’ll be around until around 2:30?
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