UK - Arthur Labinjo Hughes, 6, killed, dad & friend arrested, June 2020

[Mellowmelly]

I agree. People can sign up looking specifically for people with children. I think people seem to be in such a rush to find a new mum or dad for their kids. They don't seem to take the time to get to know someone properly. I'd not be introducing a new partner to my children for at least a year! People confuse lust and love, I'd have to be sure he was a good guy, and I'd have the confidence to walk away if my children didn't like him. And I'm damned sure no new partner would dictate how my children were treated.

Exactly ! I wouldn't use a dating website to begin with, but that's just me, I feel like it's going shopping for a romantic interest, not knocking people who do use them though. What you said, all they have to do is look at your profile and see if your a parent or not.

 

[ScottishSam]

Haha
But maybe I shouldn't pick on the name of this site, but come on!
It doesn't sound too alluring!

We have a saying when a relationship ends 'there's plenty more fish in the sea' so that's why it's called its fishy name. My Polish husband picked on the name too!!
I read in the reporting they met at Butlins though, think Joanne Hughes said so.

 

[ScottishSam]

Haha
But maybe I shouldn't pick on the name of this site, but come on!
It doesn't sound too alluring!

We have a saying when a relationship ends 'there's plenty more fish in the sea' so that's why it's called its fishy name. My Polish husband picked on the name too!!
I read in the reporting they met at Butlins though, think Joanne Hughes said so.

 

[Tinksx]

Just to go back a step, I know it’s been said that it isn’t joint enterprise. But when you look for the CPS guidelines it takes you to secondary liability.

Secondary Liability: charging decisions on principals and accessories | The Crown Prosecution Service
So does this mean Emma is D1 and Tom is D2? Scottish law is different so I'm struggling to understand some aspects of English law in this case. Tom has been charged with murder - could that be downgraded at sentencing phase ie if the jury doesn't find him guilty of murder but find he encouraged the final act?

I got directed to this last night. I tried to get my head around it but my brain refused to cooperate. I’m going to spend some time over the weekend trying to get to grips with it.

I believe this is how he has been charged with murder, via these guidelines. I do find that he could be found guilty via this route. However, I think because he’s used the defence that he was in a controlling and coerced relationship, he may have a defence to escape this charge.

If that’s the case, I do hope that alternative charge can be put on the table eg manslaughter because he does need to be held accountable and punished for Arthur’s demise.


Again, my interpretation may be wrong, I really didn’t have the headspace last night to delve into this. But that’s my taking of it so far. I’ll explore more thoroughly over the weekend. If anyone else manages to figure it out and can it explain it in layman’s terms for me, I’d massively appreciate it.

 

[Dotta]

We have a saying when a relationship ends 'there's plenty more fish in the sea' so that's why it's called its fishy name. My Polish husband picked on the name too!!
I read in the reporting they met at Butlins though, think Joanne Hughes said so.

I know this saying
I understand the allusion but it isn't too subtle.

 

[ScottishSam]

Exactly ! I wouldn't use a dating website to begin with, but that's just me, I feel like it's going shopping for a romantic interest, not knocking people who do use them though. What you said, all they have to do is look at your profile and see if your a parent or not.

I think they work for some people, I'd not be using them either though. How people present themselves online, and how they are in real life is completely different. People with children should be really careful about introducing strangers to their children. We see it time and again in abuse and neglect cases, new partner gets unrestricted access to young children

 

[ScottishSam]

I got directed to this last night. I tried to get my head around it but my brain refused to cooperate. I’m going to spend some time over the weekend trying to get to grips with it.

I believe this is how he has been charged with murder, via these guidelines. I do find that he could be found guilty via this route. However, I think because he’s used the defence that he was in a controlling and coerced relationship, he may have a defence to escape this charge.

If that’s the case, I do hope that alternative charge can be put on the table eg manslaughter because he does need to be held accountable and punished for Arthur’s demise.


Again, my interpretation may be wrong, I really didn’t have the headspace last night to delve into this. But that’s my taking of it so far. I’ll explore more thoroughly over the weekend. If anyone else manages to figure it out and can it explain it in layman’s terms for me, I’d massively appreciate it.

I'm going to have a look at it later too. I opened the link, saw it was massive and thought I'd need time to digest it. There's bound to be numerous caveats to it. And some of the terminology is different to Scottish legal lingo, so I'll need to cross reference to cases here to try and understand it. The closest and most recent case here to Arthur's (and Star's) would be Liam Fee, little boy murdered by his mum and her girlfriend

 

[Dotta]

I read in the reporting they met at Butlins though, think Joanne Hughes said so.

And what is "Butlins"?

 

[ScottishSam]

I know this saying
I understand the allusion but it isn't too subtle.

No it isn't .

 

[Dotta]

I'm going to have a look at it later too. I opened the link, saw it was massive and thought I'd need time to digest it. There's bound to be numerous caveats to it. And some of the terminology is different to Scottish legal lingo, so I'll need to cross reference to cases here to try and understand it. The closest and most recent case here to Arthur's (and Star's) would be Liam Fee, little boy murdered by his mum and her girlfriend

I think in essence all conspirators are equally guilty.

 

[ScottishSam]

And what is "Butlins"?

It's a holiday camp for families. It was very popular for holidaying families in the 50s and 60s. It had declined as a family destination, and had a reputation for being a bit old fashioned. I'm told it's enjoyed a bit of a revival recently, lockdown and staycations increased its popularity. But they met before lockdown, so I'm not sure.

 

[Lancslass]

Reading his testimony in court- he seems utterly spineless. He wasn't allowed to feed his son because she said no, Emma said when punishments were to begin/end. When he spoke about sitting in the hall with Arthur so he wasn't alone. And when they were alone she was messaging constantly telling him how bad Arthur was.
This little boys voice was taken away completely. Its very much what Emma said, goes.
He watched as her son beat up his son. And sat in as she lied to social workers about how this event unfolded.
I just can't wrap my head around how things got so bad so quickly. And how he allowed an unrelated female, who had no emotional bond to Arthur and was a virtual stranger to dictate his son's life.

I agree he was spineless. Poor Arthur must have been utterly bewildered by the change in his dad’s behaviour after moving in with Emma.

 

[Tinksx]

I'm going to have a look at it later too. I opened the link, saw it was massive and thought I'd need time to digest it. There's bound to be numerous caveats to it. And some of the terminology is different to Scottish legal lingo, so I'll need to cross reference to cases here to try and understand it. The closest and most recent case here to Arthur's (and Star's) would be Liam Fee, little boy murdered by his mum and her girlfriend

It honestly is a big piece of legislation with sections and numerous subsections, my brain literally went “cannot compute!” and switched off.

If you manage to get to grips with it, and you don’t mind of course, would you post your interpretation of it please?

Liam fee was awful! And his poor siblings…

 

[Dotta]

I read the abusers of Daniel Pelka - mother and the stepfather got 30 years minimum each.
It is a carbon copy of Arthur's case. They also poisoned the poor boy with salt. He was 4 and weighed 10 kilos!!!! when he died from head trauma.

Mind you, the mother hanged herself in prison after 2 years.
And stepfather also died (heart attack?) 2 years after her.

 

[ScottishSam]

I read the abusers of Daniel Pelka - mother and the stepfather got 30 years minimum each.
It is a carbon copy of Arthur's case. They also poisoned the poor boy with salt. He was 4 and weighed 10 kilos!!!! when he died from head trauma.

Mind you, the mother hanged herself in prison after 2 years.
And stepfather also died (heart attack?) 2 years after her.

I think they tried to appeal their sentences because they felt it was too harsh.
What was the school thinking? Daniel was shrinking in front of them, stealing food and they just accepted the mother's explanation. Awful. I often wonder how his sister is getting on

 

[Dotta]

I think they tried to appeal their sentences because they felt it was too harsh.
What was the school thinking? Daniel was shrinking in front of them, stealing food and they just accepted the mother's explanation. Awful. I often wonder how his sister is getting on

Daniel suffered from autism I read.
They kept him locked in a small windowless room without door handles. Out of sight - sounds familiar?
Blamed "eating disorders".
It was stepfather who killed him with a blow on the head. He was a criminal - was in prison before.
What I mean - mother was like TH, a helper to the abuser.
They got the same sentence.

 

[ScottishSam]

Daniel suffered from autism I read.
They kept him locked in a small windowless room without door handles. Out of sight - sounds familiar?
Blamed "eating disorders".
It was stepfather who killed him with a blow on the head. He was a criminal - was in prison before.
What I mean - mother was like TH, a helper to the abuser.
They got the same sentence.

I don't think he was autistic. Krezolek said he was, but there was never a diagnosis. He couldn't speak English, and no-one at the school spoke Polish so there was a language barrier.
The mother held his head underwater to drown him, and then left him to sleep it off in the windowless room. She was as bad as the 'step - father'.
His big sister tried to help him by giving him food and drink. They put Daniel dead in bed with her so she'd be the first to discover him.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think he was autistic. Krezolek said he was, but there was never a diagnosis. He couldn't speak English, and no-one at the school spoke Polish so there was a language barrier.
The mother held his head underwater to drown him, and then left him to sleep it off in the windowless room. She was as bad as the 'step - father'.
His big sister tried to help him by giving him food and drink. They put Daniel dead in bed with her so she'd be the first to discover him.

I see.
I read about it many years ago.
So his "mother" was as evil as her partner! What a pair!
They always find each other it seems.
Takes one to know one!

 

[ScottishSam]

I see.
I read about it many years ago.
So his "mother" was as evil as her partner! What a pair!
They always find each other it seems.
Takes one to know one!

Yes, they were. The texts between them were awful.
Same story though- Daniel was described as happy and healthy until the boyfriend came along

 

[Tinksx]

Just bringing over the judges sentencing remarks in regards to the murder of Daniel Pelka.

They were both found equally responsible and Luczak did try and use the fact that she was a victim of domestic abuse in her defence.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content...ents/r-v-krezole-and-luczak-sentencefinal.pdf