UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, York University, 18 March 2009 - Chef - #2

[Pinkizzy]

But who or what sent police to Hale ?
Her phone ? Her York friends? Her Hale friends ?
Often hints / tips are vague for fear of identification .

I guess it was her phone

 

[MajorLang]

But who or what sent police to Hale ?
Her phone ? Her York friends? Her Hale friends ?
Often hints / tips are vague for fear of identification .

Are you also in "fear" of someone / some people in the same way as the Nags Head customers are?

 

[Popejohn3]

Are you also in "fear" of someone / some people in the same way as the Nags Head customers are?

You’re very perceptive

 

[Popejohn3]

Hmm no I have nothing to hide .

 

[Pinkizzy]

@Pinkizzy
Who is saying that it was about the text?

@Yozzer suggested that the Cyprus text may have been a trigger

 

[MajorLang]

@Pinkizzy
I don't buy the text anger set the wheels in motion for the following reasons and if it did-Which Cyprus text set things off:

First Text

18:08

The first text from Claudia to Steve was on March 18 at 6.08 pm and it said:”How ru nug? (short for nugget) making the most of your spare timex”

Second Text (17 minutes later)

18:25
The next was at 6.25 and said:

”OK,ta. Weather v nice, have looked for a hol there, so expensive, mite have to be September time unless I can get a cheap last minute, bloody kids holx.”

Third Text

18:42 (17 Minutes later)

The last was at 6.42 pm. Claudia texted:

”Even flights are expensive, there’s cheap hols to other places, just Cyprus expensive! Typical. I’ll keep looking and let you knowX”

**21:12 or 19:12***

Incoming text message from Male friend in Cyprus.Steve Sammons-Ex Nags barman. CL never replies.


Steve said:”The text I sent at 21.12 was about her coming out sometime but I cannot remember the detail because the police have all my texts.”

Strange that he doesn’t recall the detail of this text but does all of the others???

“She did not respond to it, which was unusual. Even if she had dosed off on the sofa and then woken up I would have expected her to text me back.”

Was text time stated as Cyprus time or UK time

If he sent it at 21:12 Cyprus time it would be 19:12-2 hours ahead of UK

Firstly
I believe that the Police got the text time wrong as there was a huge gap in time between the 3rd text of 18:42 and the stated time of 21:12. (Exactly 2 hours and 30 minutes)
It would more likely be 19:12 (30 minutes later) as the previous 2 texts were uniformly 17 minutes apart and when asked by Police he would have said:
"I sent her a text at about 9pm" (His time zone)
Secondly
If the text triggered the action she would still have been alive to take the call from her Dad and then her mum, at 20:30 and would not have such a relaxed demeanour.

Thirdly
If she was with someone (The visitor from Hale, Manchester) then we know that she instigated texts to Steve Sammons at 18:08 and so she is hardly likely to be texting another boyfriend when in the company of another.
If she was it appeared that she was giving Steve the "brush off" as we do know she was already planning to come out there with Jen (If you go by her word) and Suzy (who she was meeting up with the following night)

Finally
If the Manchester connection was responsible, what resource did they have to dispose of body?
Why were the Nags Head locals so in fear of talking to journalists, if the threat was out of town?
Why do the Police with so much more knowledge than we have still believe after re-examining the case that the answer lies locally?

 

[MajorLang]

According to newspaper reports at the time (and comments made since):

JK thought CL had booked a holiday to Cyprus a couple of days earlier which she had been invited along to. Yet it later emerged that CL was struggling to find a flight which she could afford due to the Easter peak holiday prices, blaming it on 'schoolkids' if I recall. So no holiday had been booked. Yet JK repeated this story several times.

SC thought CL was going to book a holiday to Greece with her on Mar 19th when they were due to meet in the pub.

Neither woman seems to have acknowledged the other's plans yet they were apparently a close-knit trio. Were they aware of them? Is this relevant?

@Yozzer
I think whilst this may not be relevant in itself it says something about the Claudia that even the media have not picked up on.

Perhaps she wasn't quite a scarlet woman but I do think due to her insecurities she set out to please everyone and possibly there were some untruths in what she said to people?
Sounds like as you say that Jen and Suzy were not aware of Claudia's plans with each of them and also if you look at the Steve Samons texts, she was also possibly brushing him off.

At some point in time this would have created friction but not sufficient to be a motive for murder.

What we have is a very insecure lady who comes from a middle class background, likes older married men, possibly working class (Lady Chatterly syndrome) so as to prove a point only to herself.
She had relationships with some who were not married but these seemed to have lacked the thrill?
Once she had proved a point to herself with a married man the relationship was likely to have been dispensable?
This shows a controlling nature.

The CCTV shows what I now believe to be Lovers "Yesterdays News" who still thought they were part of Claudias life and popping around to see her, but she was "busy"??
With who?
One of those relationships may have been with an older man without wife but with a long standing partner-This could have been the step too far, particularly if it was close to "home"?
Relationships with younger men were away from Heworth and appear to be short lived-possibly one night stands.
Money would not be the motivator for Claudia.
Her parents and sister did not know of this side of her life-who tells their parents about their sex life?

Perhaps Claudia did go a step too far and this time a woman was the Perpetrator?

I believe that due to early Police statements that portrayed Claudia in not such a gentle light that others who are more perceptive have feared to tread and identify Claudias personality for fear of her "well connected" parents and their reaction?

 

[Pinkizzy]

@Pinkizzy
I don't buy the text anger set the wheels in motion for the following reasons and if it did-Which Cyprus text set things off:

First Text

18:08

The first text from Claudia to Steve was on March 18 at 6.08 pm and it said:”How ru nug? (short for nugget) making the most of your spare timex”

Second Text (17 minutes later)

18:25
The next was at 6.25 and said:

”OK,ta. Weather v nice, have looked for a hol there, so expensive, mite have to be September time unless I can get a cheap last minute, bloody kids holx.”

Third Text

18:42 (17 Minutes later)

The last was at 6.42 pm. Claudia texted:

”Even flights are expensive, there’s cheap hols to other places, just Cyprus expensive! Typical. I’ll keep looking and let you knowX”

**21:12 or 19:12***

Incoming text message from Male friend in Cyprus.Steve Sammons-Ex Nags barman. CL never replies.


Steve said:”The text I sent at 21.12 was about her coming out sometime but I cannot remember the detail because the police have all my texts.”

Strange that he doesn’t recall the detail of this text but does all of the others???

“She did not respond to it, which was unusual. Even if she had dosed off on the sofa and then woken up I would have expected her to text me back.”

Was text time stated as Cyprus time or UK time

If he sent it at 21:12 Cyprus time it would be 19:12-2 hours ahead of UK

Firstly
I believe that the Police got the text time wrong as there was a huge gap in time between the 3rd text of 18:42 and the stated time of 21:12. (Exactly 2 hours and 30 minutes)
It would more likely be 19:12 (30 minutes later) as the previous 2 texts were uniformly 17 minutes apart and when asked by Police he would have said:
"I sent her a text at about 9pm" (His time zone)
Secondly
If the text triggered the action she would still have been alive to take the call from her Dad and then her mum, at 20:30 and would not have such a relaxed demeanour.

Thirdly
If she was with someone (The visitor from Hale, Manchester) then we know that she instigated texts to Steve Sammons at 18:08 and so she is hardly likely to be texting another boyfriend when in the company of another.
If she was it appeared that she was giving Steve the "brush off" as we do know she was already planning to come out there with Jen (If you go by her word) and Suzy (who she was meeting up with the following night)

Finally
If the Manchester connection was responsible, what resource did they have to dispose of body?
Why were the Nags Head locals so in fear of talking to journalists, if the threat was out of town?
Why do the Police with so much more knowledge than we have still believe after re-examining the case that the answer lies locally?

Cyprus locals recognise missing York chef Claudia Lawrence as holidaymaker
Claudia was juggling holiday plans with Jen, Suzy, Robbie and Steve.

 

[Popejohn3]

@Pinkizzy
I don't buy the text anger set the wheels in motion for the following reasons and if it did-Which Cyprus text set things off:

First Text

18:08

The first text from Claudia to Steve was on March 18 at 6.08 pm and it said:”How ru nug? (short for nugget) making the most of your spare timex”

Second Text (17 minutes later)

18:25
The next was at 6.25 and said:

”OK,ta. Weather v nice, have looked for a hol there, so expensive, mite have to be September time unless I can get a cheap last minute, bloody kids holx.”

Third Text

18:42 (17 Minutes later)

The last was at 6.42 pm. Claudia texted:

”Even flights are expensive, there’s cheap hols to other places, just Cyprus expensive! Typical. I’ll keep looking and let you knowX”

**21:12 or 19:12***

Incoming text message from Male friend in Cyprus.Steve Sammons-Ex Nags barman. CL never replies.


Steve said:”The text I sent at 21.12 was about her coming out sometime but I cannot remember the detail because the police have all my texts.”

Strange that he doesn’t recall the detail of this text but does all of the others???

“She did not respond to it, which was unusual. Even if she had dosed off on the sofa and then woken up I would have expected her to text me back.”

Was text time stated as Cyprus time or UK time

If he sent it at 21:12 Cyprus time it would be 19:12-2 hours ahead of UK

Firstly
I believe that the Police got the text time wrong as there was a huge gap in time between the 3rd text of 18:42 and the stated time of 21:12. (Exactly 2 hours and 30 minutes)
It would more likely be 19:12 (30 minutes later) as the previous 2 texts were uniformly 17 minutes apart and when asked by Police he would have said:
"I sent her a text at about 9pm" (His time zone)
Secondly
If the text triggered the action she would still have been alive to take the call from her Dad and then her mum, at 20:30 and would not have such a relaxed demeanour.

Thirdly
If she was with someone (The visitor from Hale, Manchester) then we know that she instigated texts to Steve Sammons at 18:08 and so she is hardly likely to be texting another boyfriend when in the company of another.
If she was it appeared that she was giving Steve the "brush off" as we do know she was already planning to come out there with Jen (If you go by her word) and Suzy (who she was meeting up with the following night)

Finally
If the Manchester connection was responsible, what resource did they have to dispose of body?
Why were the Nags Head locals so in fear of talking to journalists, if the threat was out of town?
Why do the Police with so much more knowledge than we have still believe after re-examining the case that the answer lies locally?

But did the new investigation revisit the Manchester connection ?
‘Complexity ‘ because of dvd and spouses?
Age of dvd one plus years ?
Nags head locals would have been instructed by police not to talk . So the best thing is to go “we know nothing”

 

[Yozzer]

@MajorLang
6.08 pm:”How ru nug? (short for nugget) making the most of your spare timex”
Suggested response: Fine thanks. How are things? When are you coming over here next?
18:25: ”OK,ta. Weather v nice, have looked for a hol there, so expensive, mite have to be September time unless I can get a cheap last minute, bloody kids holx.”
Suggested response: You're welcome to stay here, just book a flight.
6.42 pm: ”Even flights are expensive, there’s cheap hols to other places, just Cyprus expensive! Typical. I’ll keep looking and let you knowX” sounds like a closing down of the conversation.
**21:12 or 19:12***
Steve said:”The text I sent at 21.12 was about her coming out sometime but I cannot remember the detail because the police have all my texts.” Could simply have been a farewell acknowledgement text.
Was text time stated as Cyprus time or UK time. If he sent it at 21:12 Cyprus time it would be 19:12-2 hours ahead of UK
Very good point and it would be logical for it to flow on from the other texts.
she would still have been alive to take the call from her Dad and then her mum, at 20:30 and would not have such a relaxed demeanour. So this point is really crucial.
it appeared that she was giving Steve the "brush off" (or fishing for a free flight, finding out if SS would be in Cyprus or maybe just re-connecting ahead of her hols?) as we do know she was already planning to come out there with Jen (who appeared to be relying on Claudia to make the plans as she referred to it as 'some holiday') (If you go by her word) and Suzy (who she was meeting up with the following night) No I don't think so. She had Greece plans with Suzy remember tba on Mar 19th.
At the same time, she was having a near identical conversation with a British bar owner in Cyprus: Shortly before vanishing Claudia texted Robbie saying she wanted to come on holiday to Cyprus but could not afford it. The divorced father of three offered to put her up at his place at Coral Bay, a beautiful resort town near Pafos. Claudia then texted him saying the flights were too expensive because of “bloody school holidays” and put off the trip. He said: “She was going to come and stay with me in the first week of April in 2009. I was looking forward to seeing her, but there was no relationship between us. We were just mates.”
Missing Claudia Lawrence did not come to Cyprus 4 years ago, insist pals
Looks like Claudia was weighing up her options but it seems from that same article that SS knew nothing about RC! SS lived in Paphos which is 8 miles from Coral Bay so CL could have stayed with one without the other knowing about the plans. She could have told SS she was staying in a hotel in Coral Bay on previous visits to keep things simple.

I don't think there is anything sinister in this. It is just one of many examples of how Claudia's life seemed to be complicated by her need to sustain multiple friendships/relationships. I suspect something similarly complex was at play closer to home, someone didn't like it and her fate was sealed.

 

[Popejohn3]

Agree with last comment.
Her brush off with ss could be because she wanted to surprise him .With a ‘surprise ‘ visit

 

[Yozzer]

@Yozzer
I think whilst this may not be relevant in itself it says something about the Claudia that even the media have not picked up on.

Perhaps she wasn't quite a scarlet woman but I do think due to her insecurities she set out to please everyone and possibly there were some untruths in what she said to people?
Sounds like as you say that Jen and Suzy were not aware of Claudia's plans with each of them and also if you look at the Steve Samons texts, she was also possibly brushing him off.

At some point in time this would have created friction but not sufficient to be a motive for murder.

What we have is a very insecure lady who comes from a middle class background, likes older married men, possibly working class (Lady Chatterly syndrome) so as to prove a point only to herself.
She had relationships with some who were not married but these seemed to have lacked the thrill?
Once she had proved a point to herself with a married man the relationship was likely to have been dispensable?
This shows a controlling nature.

The CCTV shows what I now believe to be Lovers "Yesterdays News" who still thought they were part of Claudias life and popping around to see her, but she was "busy"??
With who?
One of those relationships may have been with an older man without wife but with a long standing partner-This could have been the step too far, particularly if it was close to "home"?
Relationships with younger men were away from Heworth and appear to be short lived-possibly one night stands.
Money would not be the motivator for Claudia.
Her parents and sister did not know of this side of her life-who tells their parents about their sex life?

Perhaps Claudia did go a step too far and this time a woman was the Perpetrator?

I believe that due to early Police statements that portrayed Claudia in not such a gentle light that others who are more perceptive have feared to tread and identify Claudias personality for fear of her "well connected" parents and their reaction?

I wonder if the breakdown of her first very long term relationship triggered this pattern of behaviour?
Ex boyfriend DW:
When he first met her she had ended a nine-year secret affair with roofer Paddy McGinty, who was 11 years older than her. She was in the process of moving from Malton to York to start a new life. Claudia started seeing Paddy when she was just 20.
“She loved Paddy to bits,” says Dan. “But she told me she wasted nearly a decade of her life waiting for him to leave his partner. It had a lasting effect on her. It made her vulnerable.” He adds that Claudia was a different person when she had been drinking. “If she didn’t like someone she would snarl at them and it could get her into trouble.”
Missing chef Claudia Lawrence's only serious boyfriend breaks his silence

I think alcohol may have played a role in her demise. She had been out drinking all day on Sunday into early hours of Monday 16th March. Mixed reports: Was she with JK and the NH bunch or with her 'secret boyfriend' - or both? JK reported that CL was embarrassed the next day because she had been v drunk. Did she offend or embarrass someone? Did something slip out which may have exposed a hidden relationship? Did she behave in an uninhibited manner towards someone publicly?

 

[MajorLang]

But did the new investigation revisit the Manchester connection ?
‘Complexity ‘ because of dvd and spouses?
Age of dvd one plus years ?
Nags head locals would have been instructed by police not to talk . So the best thing is to go “we know nothing”

Agree with your point re Nags Head locals but what about the investigative journalists. Journos warned off by police go on to print stories. No this wasnt Police warning off this was local mafia style thuggery

 

[MajorLang]

I wonder if the breakdown of her first very long term relationship triggered this pattern of behaviour?
Ex boyfriend DW:
When he first met her she had ended a nine-year secret affair with roofer Paddy McGinty, who was 11 years older than her. She was in the process of moving from Malton to York to start a new life. Claudia started seeing Paddy when she was just 20.
“She loved Paddy to bits,” says Dan. “But she told me she wasted nearly a decade of her life waiting for him to leave his partner. It had a lasting effect on her. It made her vulnerable.” He adds that Claudia was a different person when she had been drinking. “If she didn’t like someone she would snarl at them and it could get her into trouble.”
Missing chef Claudia Lawrence's only serious boyfriend breaks his silence

I think alcohol may have played a role in her demise. She had been out drinking all day on Sunday into early hours of Monday 16th March. Mixed reports: Was she with JK and the NH bunch or with her 'secret boyfriend' - or both? JK reported that CL was embarrassed the next day because she had been v drunk. Did she offend or embarrass someone? Did something slip out which may have exposed a hidden relationship? Did she behave in an uninhibited manner towards someone publicly?

Or was she about to put at risk some planning that saw businesses that were about to grow in wealth? Either through a relationship break up or retelling some facts that would scupper these plans?

 

[Yozzer]

Agree with your point re Nags Head locals but what about the investigative journalists. Journos warned off by police go on to print stories. No this wasnt Police warning off this was local mafia style thuggery

I wish the journos would quote what was said to them. Perhaps they passed it on to NYP and this has added weight to police view that the arrested 4 conspired to murder Claudia.

 

[MajorLang]

Agree with last comment.
Her brush off with ss could be because she wanted to surprise him .With a ‘surprise ‘ visit

Your talking in riddles again @Popejohn3

 

[Popejohn3]

I would think he wouldn't be phased by the bloke passing at the bottom if it was a toilet stop and he would have come forward by now. He's acting too suspicious for it to be a loo break, jmo. We have assumed he's looking for Claudia, I wonder now if he's looking for somebody who he'd alibi'd. Idk, but the threats tell me it wasn't a stranger abduction and the Police seem to be looking at more than one person so I'm trying to see how another can fit in.

Agree with your point re Nags Head locals but what about the investigative journalists. Journos warned off by police go on to print stories. No this wasnt Police warning off this was local mafia style thuggery

journos can be indiscreet and speculative.
Even the police can be very indiscreet... personal experience!

 

[Popejohn3]

Your talking in riddles again @Popejohn3

?

 

[Popejohn3]

Cl told SS she was still searching for a cheap holiday.Was that on teletext using her tv ?

 

[MajorLang]

Cl told SS she was still searching for a cheap holiday.Was that on teletext using her tv ?

Not sure what she used for holiday prices. Could have been. Also the Travel Agents across the road, which she may have popped out to that afternoon. She may also have been trying to fob him off?