GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Maltesepuppy]

Maybe it was her time?!!!! What have I just read

Well in between blaming society, the system, social workers, the police, the public, her mafia family...
Why not blame God too?
Categorically NOT her fault or MG. Good gracious, not them.
JMO MOO

 

[Maltesepuppy]

From the BBC link…“some people from privilege think they are above the rules”.

Indeed.

She has the insight and self awareness of a house brick.

 

[Kittypoo]

BBM Sorry what? Don't be silly. Of course men can wear pink and dresses.

Have you not followed the case?
My point to be clear was that both MG and CM during court proceedings, have made a point of wearing a pink item, likely in reference to baby Victoria, on a few occasions now.

I wonder if they got the idea from the female teacher last year who had a baby with a boy pupil she had groomed. She attended court for her trial with a pink baby grow as a statement suspected to be for sympathy.

 

[Lucy6226]

BBM Sorry what? Don't be silly. Of course men can wear pink and dresses.

Have you not followed the case?
My point to be clear was that both MG and CM during court proceedings, have made a point of wearing a pink item, likely in reference to baby Victoria, on a few occasions now.

I've followed the case from the start as I'm from Bolton where they left the car.

I meant the MSM picking up on it being pink.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I also call it bull that CM's family were "prejudiced" because of his skin colour. Didn't her brother married a black woman? The family didn't appear to disown him or chase him across the country tampering with his cars.
Personally, I would be a tad put out if my child turned up pregnant by someone with such a violent past.

And as for the cars being tampered...my guess is that they bought them cheap, no checks and didn't do any maintenance.
Never ones to take responsibility, they probably stood by their "tampered" car which had probably stopped running because they didn't put oil.

JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

I also call it bull that CM's family were "prejudiced" because of his skin colour. Didn't her brother married a black woman? The family didn't appear to disown him or chase him across the country tampering with his cars.
Personally, I would be a tad put out if my child turned up pregnant by someone with such a violent past.

And as for the cars being tampered...my guess is that they bought them cheap, no checks and didn't do any maintenance.
Never ones to take responsibility, they probably stood by their "tampered" car which had probably stopped running because they didn't put oil.

JMO MOO

When did she say her blood family were prejudiced because of his skin colour?

More evidence is needed IMO on the cars thing. We don't know whether they were bought or hired. It would be strange if all the registration numbers couldn't be found and repair records couldn't be either. Further evidence would either debunk hers or support it. First, have they actually had that many cars? Second, what happened with them, if anything?

As for MG's head covering, his reasons are probably a combination of thinking it looks good and feeling comfortable in it - pretty much why most of us choose our clothes - possibly with some prison normality mixed in, and maybe he's got a thing about covering his head. Perhaps he also knows that it's going to get his image in the media, although I suspect it's far more likely that he doesn't care about that kind of thing at the moment and would be grateful if he was never referred to in the media again. Now I am feeling bad about speculating, because really his clothing choices aren't totally extraordinary and aren't relevant.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

When did she say her blood family were prejudiced because of his skin colour?

More evidence is needed IMO on the cars thing. We don't know whether they were bought or hired. It would be strange if all the registration numbers couldn't be found and repair records couldn't be either. Further evidence would either debunk hers or support it. First, have they actually had that many cars? Second, what happened with them, if anything?

As for MG's head covering, his reasons are probably a combination of thinking it looks good and feeling comfortable in it, possibly with some prison normality mixed in, and maybe he's got a thing about covering his head, as quite a few people with less than great mental health do and to judge from the streets of London this may be proportionally greater among black guys. Perhaps he also knows that it's going to get his image in the media, although I suspect it's far more likely that he doesn't care about that kind of thing at the moment and would be grateful if he was never referred to in the media again. Now I am feeling bad about speculating, because really his clothing choices aren't totally extraordinary and aren't relevant

BBC News - Constance Marten cross-examined by partner Mark Gordon

Constance Marten cross-examined by partner Mark Gordon over baby death

Marten criticised her "biological family" during extraordinary cross-examination by her partner and co-accused.

www.bbc.com

 

[Carriep]

BBC News - Constance Marten cross-examined by partner Mark Gordon

Constance Marten cross-examined by partner Mark Gordon over baby death

Marten criticised her "biological family" during extraordinary cross-examination by her partner and co-accused.

www.bbc.com

Thanks. I had missed this bit:

"She said her family trust had also told her that "if you have still got that black boyfriend with you, you are never going to get a property"."

I assumed the alleged prejudice was a combination of class, in fact class most of all, with some ethnicity mixed in, or with racism kinda laying itself bare given the class prejudice, having not come out with her brother-in-law who is not known to be working class. (All of this JMO).

Her parents should give evidence in court IMO, not first of all to be tried for alleged prejudice, or to be tried for anything else, but to clarify regarding what they have actually done or not done, and then asked their reasons for doing it or not doing it. Very crudely, either she is bats or lying about all this fear of car explosions and "want me dead" stuff or she is telling the truth and perhaps a bit bats, if at all, because of the pressure it put her under. (JMO etc.)

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Thanks. I had missed this bit:


I assumed the alleged prejudice was a combination of class, in fact class most of all, with some ethnicity mixed in, or with racism kinda laying itself bare given the class prejudice, having not come out with her brother-in-law who is not known to be working class. (All of this JMO).

Her parents should give evidence in court IMO, not first of all to be tried for alleged prejudice, or to be tried for anything else, but to clarify regarding what they have actually done or not done, and then asked their reasons for doing it or not doing it. Very crudely, either she is bats or lying about all this fear of car explosions and "want me dead" stuff or she is telling the truth and perhaps a bit bats, if at all, because of the pressure it put her under.

I would think the prejudice would be mainly because of his past. I can't say I would be thrilled if my child got involved with someone who had committed those crimes.
Maybe there is some class prejudice.

Her family should definitely testify.

JMO MOO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I also call it bull that CM's family were "prejudiced" because of his skin colour. Didn't her brother married a black woman? The family didn't appear to disown him or chase him across the country tampering with his cars.
Personally, I would be a tad put out if my child turned up pregnant by someone with such a violent past.

And as for the cars being tampered...my guess is that they bought them cheap, no checks and didn't do any maintenance.
Never ones to take responsibility, they probably stood by their "tampered" car which had probably stopped running because they didn't put oil.

JMO MOO

Really would love to hear from the people who sold the cars. No doubt they turned up as the unlikely couple, in disguises, bag of cash, fake names and fake accents, checking for GPS devices and kicking the tires but not buying anything like a reliable car. As long as it had MOT, they probably gleeful. Wonder if they ever do the required paperwork or insurance.
Or, Mark gets £10k for a car from the missus, and buys clunker for £2-3k (pockets the rest) … tells CM he’s been followed by private investigators, found & destroyed the GPS but has evaded the PIs with tactical driving maneuvers. Not sure why I think he’s dishonest …. But suspect the worst from both.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This coming from the woman who intended to live in a tent with her first born calling it "an alternative lifestyle".
She abandoned her 4th born in hospital and would not be reunited with them because a covid test was too much of an ask.
She had all 4 kids removed because goodness knows what happened there.
She missed contact sessions because she worried that they had cameras.
She went on the run with her fifth born and it resulted in her death.
And she loved being a mum??
Good job she didn't hate it.
JMO MOO

Don't forget the bit where there was some sketchy plan involving going overseas and giving the baby to someone else for a while, can't remember the detail.

Maybe CM was never parented or cared for by anyone, if she was raised by staff and servants, perhaps has no idea what mothering is?

 

[Carriep]

So according to this report in the Daily Mail, MG wasn't as close to the witness when cross-examining her as is indicated in that artist's drawing, because he questioned her from the dock. (I have read court reports written by hacks who don't know the difference between the box and the dock, but let's give the DM the benefit of the doubt.)

Aristocrat quizzed in court by lover jointly accused of killing baby

Constance Marten, 37, was cross-examined by Mark Gordon, 50, today after he was allowed to represent himself in the case. They have both been charged with manslaughter.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Konstantin]

Really would love to hear from the people who sold the cars. No doubt they turned up as the unlikely couple, in disguises, bag of cash, fake names and fake accents, checking for GPS devices and kicking the tires but not buying anything like a reliable car. As long as it had MOT, they probably gleeful. Wonder if they ever do the required paperwork or insurance.
Or, Mark gets £10k for a car from the missus, and buys clunker for £2-3k (pockets the rest) … tells CM he’s been followed by private investigators, found & destroyed the GPS but has evaded the PIs with tactical driving maneuvers. Not sure why I think he’s dishonest …. But suspect the worst from both.

I wouldn't be surprised.

But all this blah blah about cars and private investigators and GPS trackers is a distraction from the main point, which is that CM and MG concealed a pregnancy, and then went on the run in a tent in the middle of winter with a tiny neonate resulting in her probably very painful death. But no, the real victim here is CM. I wonder if there has been a psychiatric evaluation?

 

[Carriep]

I wouldn't be surprised.

But all this blah blah about cars and private investigators and GPS trackers is a distraction from the main point, which is that CM and MG concealed a pregnancy, and then went on the run in a tent in the middle of winter with a tiny neonate resulting in her probably very painful death. But no, the real victim here is CM. I wonder if there has been a psychiatric evaluation?

What you call a point is an opinion about a causal chain. The reasons for the defendants' actions are germane to the case being tried. Similarly if a person throws a child out of a window, the question of whether they thought the building was on fire, smoke was coming under the door, there was a roar of fire in the next room, and the fire service had a safety net outside, is highly relevant. Perhaps none of those beliefs were actually true, but perhaps another person had caused them to believe those things. My point here is not to be arch but to underline that reasons for actions, including the defendant's "state of mind", can be a defence, often are in trials, and are not only relevant in mitigation.

When has the case been adjourned to? Doesn't seem to be on today.

Has MG's cross-examination ended? Has the crown's first cross-examination even started? I wish there were proper court reports that didn't go on about aristocracy and headwear so much.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I wouldn't be surprised.

But all this blah blah about cars and private investigators and GPS trackers is a distraction from the main point, which is that CM and MG concealed a pregnancy, and then went on the run in a tent in the middle of winter with a tiny neonate resulting in her probably very painful death. But no, the real victim here is CM. I wonder if there has been a psychiatric evaluation?

My opinion-evaluation is these two are a folie a deux.
CM has her delusions confirmed by MG. And needs to have someone confirm her beliefs about evil family and to tell her that everything she does/says is correct.( She has access to funds that can keep her housed, fed, clothed plus more. So her basic needs can be met but needs her thoughts and ideas confirmed by person who believes in her 100%). At this point, CM needs a dedicated partner, doubt she can exist alone.

MG needs his basic living needs met - he is possibly eligible for benefits /housing but prob required to do paperwork & meetings. He could work but why bother, employment prob hard to find given his lack of any UK educational qualifications or work history or references & criminal record. Why work when has found an alternative, he has a dedicated partner with access to generous funds. All he needs to do, is keep her believing her family is evil, racist and out to kill them and that he is her protector. He just needs to make sure she knows she is correct about everything and that daddy bear protects her, he goes and buys stuff. He might feed her info about being followed to make her more dependent on him but possible he is believing it too.
No idea of alcohol or substance abuse adds to the complex story … no idea how they fill their days and nights.

Victoria arrived and the “Daddy Bear, baby bear & Constance against the world” crusade to evade authorities and hide baby begins and ends.

IMO CM has particular MH vulnerability. MG - most would conclude any 14 y.o. raping and robbing neighbors also got serious issues.

IMO CM needs a caretaker, needs her ideas validated. MG needs money & is happy to validate.

 

[AcerPacer]

Is there a new thread on this one yet please or is post #1075 the latest?

 

[JennieM]

Is there a new thread on this one yet please or is post #1075 the latest?

You’re on the latest thread Acer.

 

[Carriep]

My opinion-evaluation is these two are a folie a deux.
CM has her delusions confirmed by MG. And needs to have someone confirm her beliefs about evil family and to tell her that everything she does/says is correct.( She has access to funds that can keep her housed, fed, clothed plus more. So her basic needs can be met but needs her thoughts and ideas confirmed by person who believes in her 100%). At this point, CM needs a dedicated partner, doubt she can exist alone.

MG needs his basic living needs met - he is possibly eligible for benefits /housing but prob required to do paperwork & meetings. He could work but why bother, employment prob hard to find given his lack of any UK educational qualifications or work history or references & criminal record. Why work when has found an alternative, he has a dedicated partner with access to generous funds. All he needs to do, is keep her believing her family is evil, racist and out to kill them and that he is her protector. He just needs to make sure she knows she is correct about everything and that daddy bear protects her, he goes and buys stuff. He might feed her info about being followed to make her more dependent on him but possible he is believing it too.
No idea of alcohol or substance abuse adds to the complex story … no idea how they fill their days and nights.

Victoria arrived and the “Daddy Bear, baby bear & Constance against the world” crusade to evade authorities and hide baby begins and ends.

IMO CM has particular MH vulnerability. MG - most would conclude any 14 y.o. raping and robbing neighbors also got serious issues.

IMO CM needs a caretaker, needs her ideas validated. MG needs money & is happy to validate.

How would your opinion-evaluation change if

* MG has been mostly in work for years
* he does have British educational qualifications
* neither he nor his wife abuse alcohol or drugs, and
* his wife although she dislikes her blood family does not view them as "evil"?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

How would your opinion-evaluation change if

* MG has been mostly in work for years
* he does have British educational qualifications
* neither he nor his wife abuse alcohol or drugs, and
* his wife although she dislikes her blood family does not view them as "evil"?

I'm not the poster you addressed the question to but would suggest if those variables above were applied, that both or one of them would have more agency, more independence (less codependence), and more of a support network.

Were that to be the case in any direction, this horrific situation would not have unfolded to the proportion it did over the years.

JMO but I also view this situation as a folie-a-deux involving high levels of conspiracy, paranoia and departure from reality sufficient to be called 'delusion' bordering on psychosis and have always said that.

To me, it's remarkable there's been no defence to suggest severe mental health problems that could mean either one or the other were not wholly culpable for their actions. I'm sure the barristers would have wanted to explore this side of a defence.

JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

I'm not the poster you addressed the question to but would suggest if those variables above were applied, that both or one of them would have more agency, more independence (less codependence), and more of a support network.

Were that to be the case in any direction, this horrific situation would not have unfolded to the proportion it did over the years.

JMO but I also view this situation as a folie-a-deux involving high levels of conspiracy, paranoia and departure from reality sufficient to be called 'delusion' bordering on psychosis and have always said that.

To me, it's remarkable there's been no defence to suggest severe mental health problems that could mean either one or the other were not wholly culpable for their actions. I'm sure the barristers would have wanted to explore this side of a defence.

JMO MOO

Yes indeed, if either of the defendants were suffering from severe mental problems bordering on psychosis one would certainly expect that to have been shown in the evidence, and as far as we know it hasn't been, so what do we conclude? (Although I would caveat that the media reporting of trials is always incomplete except in the extremely few cases where someone publishes the transcripts, so we can't say for sure that certain things haven't been said in evidence.)

I think I read that the defendants accumulated lots of parking fines so it must be possible to trace at least one vehicle. I am looking at this from the point of view of what evidence would help clarify on some points. Perhaps none of the cars went wrong, other than the two we know about. Perhaps they all went wrong. Perhaps only some of them did. The evidence is surely out there.

Napier Marten, CM's father, by the way is a craniosacral practitioner:

Ecohustler

Ecohustler brings information, analysis and commitment to spearhead the environmental movement – a survival guide for the planet

ecohustler.com

He also thinks he has met "many First Nation ‘cetacean’ people". (Same link.)

Cetaceans are an infraorder of mammals that includes whales, dolphins, and porpoises. So he is saying that he has met many indigenous whale or dolphin people. We can make of that what we will. "Cetacean people" seems to mean something different from people who are interested in whales, work with dolphins, etc. - activities that AFAIAA are not known to be especially popular among indigenous people. He is clearly not trying to be insulting or sarcastic when he uses this term. He is not using it in the nasty way that some people use a phrase such as "cat woman". (IMO.) So I wonder what he means by cetacean people.

I haven't had time to investigate what it is that craniosacral practitioners practise, but I've noticed that the phrase "biodynamic" appears close to "craniosacral" quite a lot. "Biodynamic" is a Steinerite word. Is there a connection there?

The self-described meeter of indigenous cetacean people also sent a private investigator after his daughter in 2017 and 2021:

Constance Marten's parents 'hired private investigators to find her'

The parents of aristocrat Constance Marten (pictured), 36, hired private investigators to find their daughter, a court heard.

www.dailymail.co.uk

FWIW, CM says she stopped speaking to "one of her family members" two years before she met MG:

Constance Marten denies causing baby's death but 'feels guilty', trial hears

Constance Marten described the moment she woke up to find her baby daughter had died, and told the Old Bailey: “I don’t think it’s ever something I will move on from”

www.standard.co.uk

She met MG in 2014.